Zuckerruebensirup

We've talked recently about whether it would be useful to add a "rating" system to caches (similar to the one done here on the discussion threads)...but the consensus seems to be that there are too many variables to make it objective enough to be of any use. But your post sparked another idea: What if we had a contest for "most fun and/or creative" cache? Anyone could nominate any cache (with the nominee's name listed, in order to keep everyone honest)...and then it would be put on a list that people could vote on. In addition to the 'contest' part of it...the entire list would be a handy place to get ideas for things that people enjoy...and great for sparking new ideas for people like yourself who want to place a unique and creative cache.

What if they offered just a "50" pin and a "100"? (Then they could be ordered in big batches at a more cost effective price.) You could just keeping adding them, to show your cumulative total...kind of like the stickers you see on football players helmets.

I saw a welcome sign once, where the person had painted the background (of the plain pine board) in faux-birch bark. I thought it was the real thing at first glance! Very well done. I imagine it would be harder to do on plastic, though. (Even so...at a distance, I'll bet it would blend in nicely.) I think it's a clever idea.

I saw a welcome sign once, where the person had painted the background (of the plain pine board) in faux-birch bark. I thought it was the real thing at first glance! Very well done. I imagine it would be harder to do on plastic, though. (Even so...at a distance, I'll bet it would blend in nicely.) I think it's a clever idea.

quote:Originally posted by Moun10Bike: Just a short comment here to consider that the poll results will likely be skewed toward the first couple of selections. Chances are that someone who chooses to not log a find online is also likely to not read the forums, or at least not post/vote (I realize that there are and will be exceptions). Good point. I'm polling a select cross-section of the general population that won't necessarily reflect the overall views of the entire Geocaching population. But I'm still curious how community here feels about it. I'll just have to remember to take the results with a grain of salt. Thanks for pointing it out.

quote:Originally posted by Cachemere:One wasn't enough? I apologize for making an additional poll on this. But since there were already votes on this one, it was too late to just modify it. And since I had received feedback that it contained a lot of bias and negativity, I felt it was only fair to re-state it in the more neutral wording that was suggested. I don't mean to beat a dead horse. I just wanted to get a feel for a summarized consensus on the topic, since there has been a lot of random discussion flying around of late. quote:I'm personally having a difficult time believing THIS REALLY MATTERS in the grand scheme of things! PulEASE! I didn't realize we were supposed to limit our topics of discussion here only to things that matter in the grand scheme of things. Other than the issue of preserving our natural areas, while allowing as many people to enjoy them as possible (including our grandchildren's grandchildren)...I think that very FEW things discussed here really matter in the grand scheme of things. But again, that's just my opinion. I'm sure there are many who'll disagree.

quote:Originally posted by BassoonPilot: It's true that most of the stuff posted above the poll exhibited a definite bias; I would say it was highly prejudicial in nature. I can understand how you might feel that the opinions I expressed in preface to the poll choices were highly prejudicial. (And of course it exhibited a bias...it was my opinion, which is by definition baised.) In retrospect, I think it would make more sense to NOT share my opinions first, but to simply state the question, and then list the choices. I'm curious, though...do you also feel the choices themselves showed bias? Or merely that my lead-in set the tone wrong before people even had a chance to read them? quote:I don't understand the passion you have been putting into what I consider to be a very minor issue these past few days. But certainly, you are entitled to your opinion. The passion I've been displaying isn't about whether or not people log their finds online. As I've stated before, it doesn't bother me enough to keep me from placing caches...so obviously it's not that big of a deal to me. The thing that gets my blood flowing is the cavalier attitude that many people seem to have about doing whatever feels good to them...and everyone else be damned. I notice more and more a selfish trend in our society...people who seem to feel that they deserve to get things for free, and that they shouldn't have to do anything in return. If you feel that's a minor issue, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, as well. (The logging issue is just one example of that trend. I apologize if I've been too vocal about it here.)

quote:Originally posted by Buckaroo Banzai: Your Thoughts? Sounds reasonable. I've reposted the poll here. Thank you for the input. Z

I've noticed that there are varying opinions about the importance of logging our cache finds online, and I'm curious what the general consensus is:

quote:Originally posted by King Pellinore: I'll disagree and say that it is a fair playing field, but it's not a level one. Yes, "level" is probably a more accurate choice of words. I stand corrected.

quote:Originally posted by BassoonPilot: I did a quick check, and saw 200 caches in "the boonies" near you. You have 20 finds, so that's 10 percent. That's not really a "competitive" percentage, I think. But since the game is all about having fun, I hope you've enjoyed all the ones you've done. You consider a 200 mile round trip to be "near" by? (And more than half of those you cited are at least 150 miles round trip.) If you want to consider me a "poor competitor", I'll still sleep at night. I'm curious what percentage of your finds are over 75 miles from your house? Besides, I never claimed to be doing this "competitively"...so I'm not sure what your point is in criticizing my find rate. If you look for my name on the overall standings board, you'll have to scroll through many many pages before you find me. Regardless of MY standings, I think the overall look of the board would change noticeably if they used the criteria I mentioned. And yes, thank you, I have enjoyed the caches I've found...very much so!

quote:Originally posted by BassoonPilot: I did a quick check, and saw 200 caches in "the boonies" near you. You have 20 finds, so that's 10 percent. That's not really a "competitive" percentage, I think. But since the game is all about having fun, I hope you've enjoyed all the ones you've done. You consider a 200 mile round trip to be "near" by? (And more than half of those you cited are at least 150 miles round trip.) If you want to consider me a "poor competitor", I'll still sleep at night. I'm curious what percentage of your finds are over 75 miles from your house? Besides, I never claimed to be doing this "competitively"...so I'm not sure what your point is in criticizing my find rate. If you look for my name on the overall standings board, you'll have to scroll through many many pages before you find me. Regardless of MY standings, I think the overall look of the board would change noticeably if they used the criteria I mentioned. And yes, thank you, I have enjoyed the caches I've found...very much so!

quote:Originally posted by The KGB: 50 is a lot for a lot of people, it's not easy finding the time to do this. Especially if you live out in the boonies. It's fun to watch the Leader Board, to see how people rank against each other. But it would be interesting to see a second 'weighted' comparision, that showed each person's 'percentage of finds' from the available caches within various distances from their home coordinates. (Obviously, not logistically practical to track...but it would be interesting to see how much the statistics shifted if it took into account the availability of caches to each player.) Let's face it, it's not a fair playing field out there...which is one of the reasons I consider this a "fun hobby" rather than a competitive sport. On the flip side...I'm more than happy to sacrifice cache availability (as well as proximity to other conveniences and entertainments), if it means that I get to listen to the birds with no traffic noises to drown them out, enjoy pristine landscapes and sunrises/sunsets with no large buildings to ruin the view, watch deer grazing in my back yard, sit naked on my front porch swing (without having the neigbors call the cops on me), leave my house door unlocked and the keys to my car in the ignition...etc, etc. Let's face it, there are advantages and disadvantages wherever we live.

quote:Originally posted by urbo: its over 80 miles round trip from home for me. Heck, that's just a typical day of caching for us boonie folk.

quote:Originally posted by urbo: its over 80 miles round trip from home for me. Heck, that's just a typical day of caching for us boonie folk.

BB, You have an interesting perspective...which happens to be very different from my own. But one thing I've learned about sharing thoughts online is that it's very easy to state things in ways that (inadvertantly or not) end up offending others. In my poll choices, I attempted to provide possibilities that would represent the various viewpoints that people might have. I don't think my wording implied the negativity that you are trying to attribute them with. My intent of this survey was to get a feel for where others stand on the issue. While I have my own opinion, I understand that that's not the ONLY (or even necessarily the most valid) one. There are positive arguments to be made for EACH of the choices I made. Choosing any of them doesn't make you a schmuck or an a-hole. And as for the "lazy and selfish", please notice that I labeled the behavior as such...not the person. lazy "resistant to work or exhersion". Let's face it, we all have our lazy moments. Sometimes we just choose to make a trend of that behavior in certain activities that we participate in. Perhaps I'm a conscientious cache-logger...while at the same time ignoring my housework while I'm online. That is lazy behavior, too...just in another activity. For my thoughts on "selfish", please see this thread. (Plus I posed a question to you there. I think your answer might help me understand your perspective a bit more.) I'm curious to hear others' opinions on how I've stated this. I won't post another poll, but feel free to send me an e-mail with either positive or negative feedback. I'd like to learn how to improve my ability to communicate my thoughts and understand others' viewpoints better, without at the same time offending or needlessly criticizing others. How better could I have worded these poll choices to reflect an accurate picture of how people feel, without making it appear that one choice is better or worse than the others. (Perhaps I shouldn't have shared my views preceding the poll question, and just listed the options, with no bias attached?) Thank you, BB, for helping me see that I still have progress to make in learning how to state things in a neutral and non-offensive way, and for showing me a glimpse of how you see the world. My first reaction to your comments is that you were deliberately twisting my poll choices, and putting words in my mouth that weren't intended...but perhaps, as you've misinterpreted my words, I've done the same with yours. So I'll assume that you had no ill intent to stir the pot, but that you honestly felt that's the message my words were conveying. Let me assure you, name calling wasn't my intent at all. I'd just like to know what the concensus is on online logging etiquette. (I'm curious how you would suggest I word five choices for this poll. Perhaps we can ask Jeremy to close this thread out, and post your suggested choices in its place.)

quote:Originally posted by BassoonPilot: I agree it's not benefitting you, but it's also not necessarily to your detriment. Good point. I guess I wasn't leaving much room for middle ground, was I? (But still, even if it's not hurting anyone else, if my action (or inaction) is not doing something positive for someone else, wouldn't it qualify as being done (or not done) for MY sole interest, and without regarding how it affects anyone else? It still counts as "selfish" behavior by the above definition. Being selfish, or not thinking of others, doesn't have to mean that you're hurting someone.) quote:Some logs are a joy to read; Yes! (which is one of the reasons I enjoy this sport so much...other than the getting out myself and seeing the great locations, and the clever ideas people come up with) quote:many don't have much to offer. True. I guess not EVERY find can be exciting or informative...and not every cacher is a natural storyteller. (But I at least respect those who give their feedback, no matter how basic.) quote: But some logs are best left unread. Boy, ain't THAT the truth! (The words "TMI" have come to mind more than once when I've been reading logs. LOL) [This message was edited by Zuckerruebensirup on April 03, 2002 at 11:00 AM.]

quote:Originally posted by BassoonPilot: I agree it's not benefitting you, but it's also not necessarily to your detriment. Good point. I guess I wasn't leaving much room for middle ground, was I? (But still, even if it's not hurting anyone else, if my action (or inaction) is not doing something positive for someone else, wouldn't it qualify as being done (or not done) for MY sole interest, and without regarding how it affects anyone else? It still counts as "selfish" behavior by the above definition. Being selfish, or not thinking of others, doesn't have to mean that you're hurting someone.) quote:Some logs are a joy to read; Yes! (which is one of the reasons I enjoy this sport so much...other than the getting out myself and seeing the great locations, and the clever ideas people come up with) quote:many don't have much to offer. True. I guess not EVERY find can be exciting or informative...and not every cacher is a natural storyteller. (But I at least respect those who give their feedback, no matter how basic.) quote: But some logs are best left unread. Boy, ain't THAT the truth! (The words "TMI" have come to mind more than once when I've been reading logs. LOL) [This message was edited by Zuckerruebensirup on April 03, 2002 at 11:00 AM.]

I think there may have been some confusion about the intent of my original question. I couldn't care less whether people cheat or not, I was just questioning the suggestion that the pins be made available "only" to people that have achieved a certain count. The logistics of how to decide who's allowed one, and who isn't, is what I was pointing out.

Whenever possible I bring Daisy along with me when Geocaching. Our very first cache find (in a park that doesn't allow dogs...so she had to wait in the vehicle), the item I took was a package of "Canine Carryouts" (chicken strip dog treats). After seeing those, she gave me her immediate endorsement of the sport, even though she didn't get to help sign the log. [This message was edited by Zuckerruebensirup on April 09, 2002 at 10:31 PM.]

Whenever possible I bring Daisy along with me when Geocaching. Our very first cache find (in a park that doesn't allow dogs...so she had to wait in the vehicle), the item I took was a package of "Canine Carryouts" (chicken strip dog treats). After seeing those, she gave me her immediate endorsement of the sport, even though she didn't get to help sign the log. [This message was edited by Zuckerruebensirup on April 09, 2002 at 10:31 PM.]

I realize that there is no written "rule" that we have to post a log online when we find a cache...obviously there would be no way to enforce a rule like this...but my own personal opinion is that it is plain and simple curtesy to the cache owner to do so (as a way of showing our appreciation for their efforts in creating, placing, and maintaining the cache...as well as to give future cache hunters some feedback about what they might expect to find/not find). Personally I feel that, unless a person has a valid excuse for not doing so*, they should ALWAYS post an online log of their find. I place caches with the understanding that not everyone will log their finds online…and I accept it. (It's a free country (where I place my caches, anyway), and if I place a cache on public land, I've voluntarily given up control over what people choose to do with it.) But accepting it, and liking it are two different things. I'm confused by those who seem surprised or put off by those of us who consider it thoughtless and selfish to choose not to sign the log. *And, to be honest, I'm hard pressed to think of a valid excuse. You have to have access to a computer to find out about the cache and get the coordinates to it...so logging the find shouldn't be an issue. Perhaps it's the fear of someone seeing that you were off "boondoggling" instead of doing something productive, and logging the find would put you in the doghouse? The one exception that comes to mind that IS valid would be in the case of those who stumble across the cache by accident. Even for those that have a computer, it's not like they made a deliberate effort to search your cache out with the intention of hunting it...so, in my mind, they have no obligation to "give back"...since they took nothing in the first place. ____________ I'm curious to know how others feel:

quote:Originally posted by Buckaroo Banzai: And why is it thoughtless and selfish? I thought I explained this in my original post, but since you asked, I’ll try to clarify (with a little help from Mr. Webster): thoughtless: "Devoid of consideration for others." selfish: "Concerned only or primarily with oneself, without regard for others." Knowing that one of the primary motivations of placing a cache is to get feedback, if a person chooses not to give that feedback, it seems clear to me that they are thinking primarily of themselves (too much bother or inconvenience to go through the effort, even though they know the person would appreciate the gesture). And yes, there's also the physical log. (There are some who don't even sign that...but I'll leave that tangent for another discussion.) However, assuming that the physical log has been signed, what if the cache gets plundered, and the log is stolen or destroyed? The record is permanently gone. Also, the online log gives much more TIMELY feedback, so a cache owner can respond to any issues that might come up. Plus, not only do the cache owners appreciate the online logs, other cachers enjoy them as well. They can save the person a wasted or disappointing trip if the cache is missing or unreachable. And in addition to those who are intending to seek the cache, there are many more (possibly nowhere near the area) who enjoy reading the stories and experiences. On the other hand, if I am incorrect in my assumption that people realize that the cache hiders would appreciate some feedback, then in those instances, it's not a case of selfishness, but rather ignorance ("unaware, uninformed, or oblivious"). Perhaps there are people out there who honestly feel they are entitled to something for nothing...that it's ok for them to take, without giving in return. I guess those people believe that others are out there placing caches for no other reason than for them to enjoy going out and finding them. Since you asked for clarification on why I felt it was thoughtless and selfish to not sign the online log, I'm curious to hear the reverse perspective: Please help me understand how those same actions could be interpreted to be thoughtful and considerate of others? Perhaps I'm the ignorant one...and unaware of how it's benefiting me (or anyone other than yourself) for you NOT to sign the online log.

Team Big Bro was kind enough to try one more go around at getting the logs corrected for EWS and the cache he was placed in. He now shows on the inventory, and reflects his correct mileage accumulation. - Zuck "All good things come to him that waits."

Team Big Bro was kind enough to try one more go around at getting the logs corrected for EWS and the cache he was placed in. He now shows on the inventory, and reflects his correct mileage accumulation. - Zuck "All good things come to him that waits."