BuckBrooke

I follow mloser's policy of only contacting the person if they look serious about benchmarking. One class of mix-ups I've noticed is SCALED disks; people keep looking in the same wrong place, not following the description. Eventually they get really fed up, and if there's some other random disk there, they photo that, and if not, they post a FOUND log "Well, I spent enough bloody time on this, it's there somewhere." If they're not serious, or if a lot of people have mistakenly logged the station, I almost always post a Note, something like: The disk pictured below is a Whatchamacallit County Survey disk, stamped "blah", while the disk that you need to find for this station is a US Coast & Geodetic Survey disk stamped "whatever". Note that the horizontal coordinates on this station are SCALED, which means they usually are close but could be up to a quarter mile off. Read the description at the bottom of the page carefully, and follow that to FOUND or NOT FOUND the station.

A number of the stations used for alignment/elevation for the Nike/Zeus (1950s/early 1960s) missile sites made it into the database; they're on my list of disks to make a website about. I'll add these Minuteman ones to the list. The trick is finding a webpage with the coordinates of the Minuteman sites. I'll look into that.

SeismicCat, Does you notice this difference for SCALED as well as ADJUSTED stations? For those (not necessarily yourself) who aren't aware of the difference, if you look at the benchmark page for a station, AC8346 for example, 2 lines under the coordinates, at the end of the text, it says " and location is SCALED". This means that the station is accurate in altitude, not X-Y coordinates, and could be off up to several hundred feet. You'll see the coordinates I got for that station were pretty good, not more than 20-30 feet off or so. If the coordinates were ADJUSTED, the accuracy would be better than your handheld unit, and you should get the same as the listed coordinates.

Squadtech, it's a variation on the US Dept. of Interior National Park Service disk that I haven't seen before; I'll link to it on the US Agencies list once you've Waymarked it. Thanks for the recovery!

andGuest, Please take a look at the FAQ which discusses many of these marks that are not in the database.

hostmastah, you found AA5521 1011, which is a City of Ann Arbor mark. In the cases where using 2oldfarts' ZIP code search doesn't work, you can can click on advanced search, and type the station name, stamping or elevation into the search for phrase.

Rule_56 I did a search for those coordinates, and there was nothing in the database closer than 2 miles. Thus, without knowing what's stamped on them or the agency name that's on the disk I would say that you've found 2 of the million of disks in the US that are not in the US. For example, I'm in Albuquerque, NM and there are 3,000 City of Albuquerque marks that are not in NGS database; they're in a City of Albuquerque database. Ditto with 1,000 or so benchmarks up in Santa Fe. However, we haven't seen the disks yet. Why don't you take pics and post them on this discussion topic. We'll take a second crack at finding their PID, but I bet it won't have one. Then, you can create a Waypoint for each one at Warymarking, in the U.S. Benchmark section. Your coordinates are very close together; that leads me to think they might be reference marks for a main station. If they have stamped names like "CLAY RM NO 2" an arrow in the middle (instead of a triangle) and something like the words "Reference Mark" on the disk, follow the arrow to the main station. Typically there's a main disk and two reference marks. If that's not the case, there's just two disks close by each other.

foxtrot, You could email Cheryl w/ the PIDs. She would probably change them for you.

holograph, I wasn't sure I phrased the question right when I posted it. People have commented here that some agencies will post a recovery less than a year from the last one. I know that some folks here like to go after very old marks that haven't been recovered for a while. I'll go after any mark, and won't log a recovery if they've been recovered in the last few years and there's no change to the situation of the mark. Thus, my question was/is: What is the average for each agency (of all the the marks they've logged in the last month) of the time between the current log to the last log for that mark. I would be interested to see what our average time since last recovery is compared to Woolpert or one of the state agencies, who presumably go after different sorts of marks.

One thing that makes the National Map Corps intriguing to the people who do that sort of thing is that the USGS (or whomever) is providing opportunities that meet the needs of the volunteers; there has to be service both ways. I think a big part of strengthening/formalizing our relationship with the NGS (or however we want to go about it) would be the NGS posting a laundry list of what they want to get done, and how we can work with them on those projects. And the same from our end. Here are some projects that we've noticed: The NGS didn't have the County labelled in almost all the Alaska benchmarks. I noticed that and did it. Holograph noticed a need to create a website that basically is the core of GEOCAC. The Wheeler monuments came up, and folks have organized an effort to recover them, and are thinking about preservation. We provided photos for all the types of benchmarks. What projects could the NGS have for us? I don't know, but I hope they could be varied, to meet a lot of tastes. Maybe we could have a discussion about how to improve their website, and/or have someone work on it. Are there certain types of disks (or lines, or groups of disks) that the NGS has a priority to recover? Are there historical markers that they would like searched for? Have they heard from a local agency that wants some volunteer help recovering monuments/markers (like PFF and the NCGS)?

Woohoo! I've noticed Woolpert disks in a number of guises in the Ohio/Kentucky area, but also elsewhere. They must be one of the larger surveying companies (40 survey crews and 60 surveyors). Here's their website. Here's an interesting question that I think addresses something people have discussed here in the group: What's the average time since the last recovery for each of these agencies' recoveries? Also, the North Carolina Geodetic Survey seems to be missing from this list...I wonder why they're not sending in recoveries.

I'm impressed that GEOCAC has logged 15,500 stations. That's 2+% of the NGS benchmarks. That's an impact.

bvrballs, Once you're done logging with the NGS and Geocaching (Not Found as well), I would suggest you log this mark as a Waymark, </a>. I haven't seen a City of Long Beach disk before, and don't have a link/picture of one on the benchmarkign agency <a href="http://www.unm.edu/~creelbm/pages/agencies.html" target="_blank">site. Could you send me a photo, or put it on Waymarking so I could link to it? Thanks. Good work on figuring out the disk. Oh, figured out the link to the photos, thanks BDT. Very obvious.

Modu, A disk with stampings like what you've typed is most likely a cadastral mark, outlining the corner of a property section. It was likely a US General Land Office disk. The vast, vast majority of these disks are not in the NGS database. You can list it in the Waymarking site if you have the coordinates. For one last check in the database, what are the coordinates? Have you done a search for nearby disks on those coords? In general, as the FAQ states, the vast majority of survey disks in the United States are not in the NGS database, and thus not on Geocaching.com/mark.

Benchmarking, not geocaching. At best it would be a Not-Found. A submerged disk under a lake is nigh unto useless for a surveyor.

As a quick note, Bobbo, the Geocaching database is a copy of the NGS' database, not the USGS. This may seem pedantic, but the USGS does not have an online database. 99%+ of the USGS disks have not been added to the NGS database, which is comprised mostly of US Coast & Geodetic Survey (NGS precursor) and NGS disks, with a lot of other national, state and local agencies.

We've discussed forming a more organized volunteer group, or at least broadening our relationship with the NGS in various ways. One further example that's come up recently is the discussion over recovery and preservation of the 1870 Wheeler survey monuments in the Southwest. Is there continued interest? There is a bit of a chicken/egg problem here: how do we know it will be a useful group without seeing what it can provide? However, I think we can start with something and morph the focus until it meets our and the NGS' needs/interests. If there's still interest, Would it be good to get together to discuss the matter, and organize it after a period of online discussion? I know several people are planning to go to the Sept. 22-23 Lewis & Clark monument dedication in St. Louis, and I'd be willing to go if that would be a good place and time frame. I think getting together, while more expensive, would let us hash matters out. Thoughts?

I think I can read its stamping, which was enough to find its datasheet. It is a new agency: ZZ0000 *********************************************************************** ZZ0000 DESIGNATION - GOOD ZZ0000 PID - ZZ0000 ZZ0000 STATE/COUNTY- BFE/ILLUSIONARY ZZ0000 USGS QUAD - MIDDLE OF NOWHERE (1975) ZZ0000 ZZ0000 *CURRENT SURVEY CONTROL ZZ0000 _____________________________________________________________ ZZ0000* NAD 83(1992)- 12 34 56.78910(N) 101 01 01.01010(W) ADJUSTED ZZ0000* NAVD 88 - 9999.9 (meters) 9999.9 (feet) VERTCON ZZ0000 ___________________________________________________________________ ZZ0000 LAPLACE CORR- 8.16 (seconds) DEFLEC99 ZZ0000 GEOID HEIGHT- -21.03 (meters) GEOID99 ZZ0000 ZZ0000 HORZ ORDER - FIFTH ZZ0000 ZZ0000.The horizontal coordinates were established by GPS observations ZZ0000.and adjusted by the National Geodetic Survey in December 1993. ZZ0000 ZZ0000.The NAVD 88 height was computed by applying the VERTCON shift value to ZZ0000.the NGVD 29 height (displayed under SUPERSEDED SURVEY CONTROL.) ZZ0000 ZZ0000.The Laplace correction was computed from DEFLEC99 derived deflections. ZZ0000 ZZ0000.The geoid height was determined by GEOID99. ZZ0000 ZZ0000; North East Units Scale Converg. ZZ0000;SPC NM C - 462,990.936 467,619.361 MT 0.99991292 -0 12 17.3 ZZ0000;UTM 13 - 3,893,576.274 353,800.789 MT 0.99986342 -0 55 30.2 ZZ0000 ZZ0000|---------------------------------------------------------------------| ZZ0000| PID Reference Object Distance Geod. Az | ZZ0000| dddmmss.s | ZZ0000| QQ0001 BUD LIGHT CAN 10.218 METERS 07928 | ZZ0000| QQ0002 BROKEN TV 10.278 METERS 19231 | ZZ0000| QQ0003 NUDIE BAR SIGN APPROX. 1.0 KM 2133259.0 | ZZ0000|---------------------------------------------------------------------| ZZ0000 ZZ0000 SUPERSEDED SURVEY CONTROL ZZ0000 ZZ0000 NAD 83(1992)- 12 34 56.78901(N) 101 01 01.01010(W) AD( ) 1 ZZ0000 NGVD 29 - 9999.9 (m) 9999.9 (f) GPS OBS ZZ0000 ZZ0000.Superseded values are not recommended for survey control. ZZ0000.NGS no longer adjusts projects to the NAD 27 or NGVD 29 datums. ZZ0000.See file dsdata.txt to determine how the superseded data were derived. ZZ0000 ZZ0000_MARKER: Z = SEE DESCRIPTION ZZ0000_SETTING: RC = ROUGH CONCRETE FO1738_STAMPING: GOOD UNTIL 06/23/1990 FO1738_MARK LOGO: CHIOTS ZZ0000_MAGNETIC: Y = MAGNETIC MATERIAL ZZ0000_STABILITY: D = MARK OF QUESTIONABLE OR UNKNOWN STABILITY ZZ0000_SATELLITE: THE SITE LOCATION WAS REPORTED AS SUITABLE FOR ZZ0000+SATELLITE: SATELLITE OBSERVATIONS - 2006 ZZ0000 ZZ0000 HISTORY - Date Condition Recov. By ZZ0000 HISTORY - 1991 MONUMENTED JONDOE ZZ0000 ZZ0000 STATION DESCRIPTION ZZ0000 ZZ0000''DESCRIBED BY JOHN DOE, INC. 1991 ZZ0000''THE STATION IS LOCATED ABOUT 7 MI (11.3 KM) NORTHEAST OF DOWNTOWN ZZ0000''MIDDLE OF N. AND 1.25 MI (2.01 KM) WEST OF INTERSTATE 5641 ON MAIN ZZ0000''STREET. ZZ0000" ZZ0000''TO REACH THE STATION FROM THE INTERSECTION OF SOMEWHERE ST. AND ZZ0000''INTERSTATE 5641, GO WEST ON INTERSTATE 5641 1.25 MI (2.01 KM) TO THE ZZ0000''STATION ON THE LEFT, ON THE SOUTH SIDEWALK OF THE EAST-BOUND TRAFFIC ZZ0000''LANES, IN THE SOUTHWEST QUADRANT OF THE INTERSECTION. ZZ0000''THE STATION MARK IS A RUSTED CHICKEN OF THE SEA SALMON STEEL CAN SET ZZ0000''IN THE HORIZONTAL SURFACE OF THE SIDEWALK, STAMPED GOOD UNTIL 6/23/1990 ZZ0000''THE STATION IS ABOUT 20 M (65.6 FT) WEST OF THE CENTERLINE ZZ0000''OF NORTH DIVERSION STREET, 0.6 M (2.0 FT) NORTH OF A CONCRETE ZZ0000''TRAFFIC BARRIER, AND 0.6 M (2.0 FT) EAST FROM THE WEST EDGE OF THE ZZ0000''BURNED OUT CHEVY SEDAN.

tosborn, I'll leave off Cimarron, as it's an extra hour each way. I'll try for Las Vegas and Santa Fe, and see what your friend says.

That's a heck of a vacation, Klemmer. If you would, give us an accounting when you get back.

Well, we have a website to list US benchmark agencies, and one for Canadian benchmark agencies (newly updated), and now we have a page for all the other countries' agencies. The list is a little short at the moment, as I have a much longer list on my other hard drive that I need to transfer over. It will get longer. I've had several people email me with photos of disks from their countries. If you have a disk from another country, please post the pic here or email me me with the info. If possible, post/email the country, the location of the disk, its coordinates, the agency that made the disk, etc. I plan to include other objects besides disks, such as an example of a UK trigpoint, etc. So, send me anything. I still have some agencies to get from the Waymarking categories. I'll probably be changing the format a bit as time goes by. Once enough agencies build up for any given country I'll split that country off onto a separate page.

here's the rest of it. Waymarking: VoSKOK (IL) **Village of Skokie DuCM&P (IL) DuPage County Maps & Plats VoGENE (NY) Village of Geneseo CoMOVI (CA) City of Mountain View [Type II] CoEUSA (US) Corps of Engineers U.S.A. - Boundary RD4331 (OR) Oregon State Engineer SCOCoW (CA) Siskiyou County - City of Weed ROSINC (NC) The Rose Group, Inc. LG1362 (NE) City of Bertrand SFWDEP (CA) San Francisco Water Department [Type II] BOCOLI (KY) **Boone County Line CIoLOD (CA) City of Lodi COMIHI (CO) State of Colorado - 2003 Mile High Marker, Denver PU1560 (US) Bureau of Land Management - "Not a Survey Corner" From Flickr: MDDoNR (MD) Maryland Department of Natural Resources One I can't read. Anyone? Unidentified state local marker Another unidentified state local marker A third local marker UoFDCE (FL) University of Florida - Dept. of Civil Engineering CoAUST (TX) City of Austin (cool disc) COESSE (MA) Essex County Street Line

I've added this benchmark photo to my list of Canadian benchmark agencies.

Ok, it's been a while since the last update. There will be another update shortly, with half a dozen from this discussion, plus a few more from other topics, some from Waymarking and whatever else I can find. From the Gallery: LX1987 (CT) Town of Norfolk OW0285 (US) U.S. General Land Office - Reference Mark AK0721 (US) US Engineer Dept. - Harbor Survey - Jacksonville Florida GJ0237 (US) US Weather Bureau (odd disk) SA2543 (WA) City of Richmond SA2024 (US) War Department Corps of Engineers, U.S. Army [Type IV] JO0570 (US) U.S. Geological Survey - Reference station [Type II] EV9150 (CA) **Metropolitan Water District of Southern California [Type VI] AI8987 (KY) Woolpert Control Station JS4819 (CA) Sacramento County Department of Public Works MB1190 (OH) Mahoning County Engineers TP1198 (US) United States Canada International Boundary Commission [Type V] EF1011 (US) U.S. Engineer Department [Type IV] QE2642 (US) US Army Engineers - Portland District Several that I found recently: DOINPS (US) Department of Interior - National Park Service pipecap KOO&PO (NM) Koogle & Pouls Engineering Note that the Koogle and Pouls firm, based in Albuquerque, did surveying work for the US House of Representatives JFK assassination committee, link AMAFCA (NM) Albuquerque Metropolitan Arroyo Flood Control Authority (AMAFCA) From Waymarking: SRTHUM (CA) Stephen R Thumlert PLS - Property Corner (cool disk) KENROW (KY) Commonwealth of Kentucky - Right of Way TENDOT (TN) Tennessee Department of Transportation JACKCO (MI) Jackson County Remonumentation USBoPR (US) Bureau of Public Roads [Type II] USGSGS (US) U.S. Department of Interior Geological Survey - Cascades Volcano Observatory TENVAA (TN) *Tennessee Valley Authority (square) DT0353 (AZ) Boston Museum of Science LOCORA (TX) Lower Colorado River Authority DH5691 (WI) Juneau County WISDOT (WI) Wisconsin Department of Transportation [Type V] ARSINC (NY) American Rock Salt, Inc. CAC??? (IL) CAC ChiUTD (IL) (B)Chicago Urban Transit District ToLALH (CA) Town of Los Altos Hills OX0228 (US) U.S. Department of Agriculture Biological Survey CoMOVI (CA) City of Mountain View

SoDak, I think one of your questions left unanswered is: What do I do with all of these disks I've run across that I can't log at Geocaching or the NGS? This is a question that often comes up, because people run across all sorts of disks that are not in the database. To quote the Frequently Asked Questions: In the last week I've run across three not in the database, a DOI NPS disk, a private surveyor's disk (new agency noone's seen before) set along a state road and a AMAFCA disk (also a new agency). It happens. There's 3,000 City of Albuquerque disks here in Albuquerque that are in their own database, but not in the NGS list.