D-cachers

Flask...I think its important to realize I am not alking about my ranking...its nothing to talk about (173 finds). Its about a bigger issue... Why is it that a community of cachers can't agree that honesty is important? Its as simple as that. Like I said in my last post to RK..this is really about principal...honesty and integrity fall right in line. Its about knowing that, while you can't ensure honesty, the community can make it an expectation. Right now, there are lots of folks out there that state they don't care....and very little is done to make it clear that that is unacceptable. I'm not talking about the right for free speech...I'm talking about nurturing a community that is built on honesty and integrity...

RK...I appreciate your comment...I'm sure you can appreciate how it is sometimes difficult putting thoughts into the written word so that those interested get the true picture...so here goes... Over the past 8 months of cruising the forums, I have noticed a general unwillingness in the caching community to stand up and make it clear to all that, even though you have a right to "play your own way"....you go over the line when you do take those inaccurate find numbers and post them on public access ranking databases like Keenpeople. While doing this topic, I also thought about why this subject area wasn't clearly included in the cacher's code. I should have taken a moment while the code was being drafted and at least submitted my recommendation... I guess this is one of those "principal" issues...

Kilted...I have seen those listings before...when I read the info on the site just a few minutes ago, I discovered that the data is based on a sample group of caches that are deemed high profile caches...so if you haven't gone to those caches, you would not be accurately represented in that database. But..it is an interesting listing to see where you stand in comparison to the large geocaching world...

Great point about the currency of Keenpeople... The ones I wonder about aren't folks that never log in..its the folks that run in the front door after a day of caching...and proceed to get the "padded" stats in as fast as possible... In Oklahoma...you can bet that the top 25 or so in the state stay on top of their stats...Keenpeople rankings are a topic of every monthly meeting...

SBell....its great to also get your input. Both you and Brian are regulars who I consider leaders in these forums... I can see that many folks do care...but what I find interesting is that time and time again, when someone asks a question about logging their own finds, etc.... the seemingly majority of regular posters appear to say otherwise...and few come out and state that honesty is paramount...IMO

Good point BlueDeuce...why expect them to be any different... I think the main question I have really centers around the impression (that I have at least) that the going position in the caching community (at least in these forums) is "live and let live" when it comes to logging finds and numbers. If the caching community took a stand that said "Honesty and integrity does count...in many ways, including logging finds" then I most likely would not have started this topic. I would be able to use sites like Keenpeople knowing that the stats are fair...and that we all expect, literally demand, others to be honest... I just think that its okay for us all to say be honest in all you do...including finds...its expected within this community. Normally, I see a lot (not all) of cachers respond with a "live and let live" attitude...

Briansnat, I essentially agree with you...I haven't seen any fake finds out there...but I am sure they exist...and that would certainly have a tangible, direct impact on my time and geocaching experience... The issue of numbers has been an interesting one for me ever since I entered into this arena last year. I admit that I enjoy the personal challenge of pursuing that next level of finds...and being part of a geocaching organization in my state where I can interact with others definitely keeps that fire burning...but in a positive way. Friendly competition Having a database like Keenpeople gives us all a way to track how we are doing in comparison with our peers...but its only as good as the data being put into it. I, for one, do believe that there comes a time where its okay for the caching community to say that honesty really is the best policy. Finally, I was a little disappointed to see that the Cacher's Code didn't really address the integrity issue when it comes to logging finds...as a military guy, I find that interesting...

In general, this is not a new issue...in fact its been batted around many times before. But...there is one piece that I haven't seen clearly discussed...(at least that I know of...) Most of us agree that this is a game and one person's logging practices shouldn't affect others. I've seen some cachers log finds when they went out with the cache owner as he/she actually placed the cache. Others have talked about logging their own finds...and someone inevitably replies "its a game, who cares?" In most cases, I agree....but what about when those folks log their numbers on sites like Keenpeople.com...where they are ranked against other cachers in the state? So the question is..."When it comes to logging finds on ranking systems like Keenpeople.com...does the caching community care about the integrity and legitimacy of the numbers?"

14+ years active USAF medic--stationed at Tinker AFB OK--previously stationed at Carswell AFB, Ft. Worth, TX; Robins AFB, GA; Ramstein AB, GE; Brooks AFB, San Antonio, TX. Glad to serve this great country of ours!!!

Howdy V - I think its great you are asking for some advice for your first cache. Several months ago, we placed our first cache and I can appreciate your interest in putting together a cache that you will be proud of. A couple thoughts from a somewhat experienced cacher...we only have two caches out, so I can relate to where you are coming from. 1. If there are a number of caches in your area, consider waiting a little while until you have experienced several more caches...you can get a feel for what works and doesn't work (in your opinion at least) 2. Look at other caches that are out there...and not necessarily in your area. The Oklahoma City area has a prolific cache placer named Darkmoon. He has put together dozens of caches of all types. Go to Hide and Seek a cache on the GC.com page, put in 73145 for the zip code and 50 miles for the search distance. You will be able to go through and see and pick out a great variety of caches placed by Darkmoon..and others... 3. Just my opinion...I would try to stay away from placing a micro for your first cache. Micros can somewhat limit your creativity...depending on what your goals are. Good luck... D-cachers Edmond OK

As most have mentioned, the numbers issue is a personal decision...but...a lot of folks do track their numbers via Keenpeople.com...where there is a rank-order listing based on finds. I would imagine most of the "ranked" cachers might have a thought or two about folks logging their own finds. Almost everyone says "the numbers don't matter"...but almost everyone knows how many they have found...interesting

Here are my final thoughts on this... 1. Theres too much political correctness out there and I am tired of people beating around the bush on this subject. There are simply people out there that are too cheap to pay for something that they can get for free. They choose to use a service that others pay for. Some folks admit that...others make statements that probably are not true...and, for once, I want to put my .02 out there... 2. MOPAR said it best...Gas + batteries = more than $2.50 a month. For that handful of folks who tag along with others because they don't have a car...can't afford the gas, etc...I am glad you are able to experience geocaching. 3. Check out some of the profile pages out there of folks who say they can't afford it...great pictures of beautiful, scenic cache locations that some of these folks have visited. You'll also see top of the line 4X4's decked out with all the accessories. I assume they borrowed the Jeep to get there...camera, film...got free developing...borrowed a scanner...use the local library or work for internet access...or maybe they borrowed a digital camera...so the pics could be posted . If are one of those folks who choose to let everyone else pay (when you really can)...fine...just tell it like it is...but please don't insult my intelligence by saying you can't afford it. I know that these comments do not apply to all non-paying cachers out there. But definitely to some... I'd rather people just put the truth out there... Signed... Married father of three who chooses to use $30 a year to support a service that we use regularly for wholesome entertainment...

Thanks MOPAR for putting it out there in plain English...you hit the proverbial nail on the head... CUIYC...what MOPAR is saying is that if you can afford to pay for the gas to drive 990.1 miles for 3 caches...you can probably afford a few $$ a month to support the site. There is enough "smoke" out there in the world we live in...I simply prefer the honest truth. Those that have said that if its free they'll take it...fine. I don't like it...but at least its the truth... Those that have said they would continue caching without GC.com...good luck...right now, there simply isn't another site that has the quantity and quality of info out there to sustain geocaching on the same level... In fact, I would like to see those folks take a stand and go without using GC.com as a data/info source for a month...see how easy or difficult it would be. I've never tried...so it may be a breeze...but I would bet not...

I always find this topic interesting...it seems to pop up every now and then and I am always amazed at the variety of reasons given for why people choose to not support the site...and also the politically correct nature behind a lot of the comments... Here are my thoughts (that I have felt for some time now)...sure to be unpopular with some...but most likely more honest than most... - I appreciate RK's honesty...seemed to tell it like it is... - "Can't afford it"...??...come on...$2.50 a month...(There I said it...come on...be real...be honest) - There are simply some folks out there that will always take something for nothing... - NO GC.com...geocaching would be a fraction of what it is today. - Focus on the service you get...Jeremy's bank balance is not my concern as long as I value the service/access provided...and I do. - A lot of the folks who literally live on this site (look at the post numbers)...and aren't supporters...and bash GC.com at every opportunity (the very hand that feeds them geocaching data, info, forum access, etc.) amaze me. Don't like TPTB...get off. Then see how the other sites serve your needs. Do they have major forums to spend countless hours?? Probably not on the scale of GC.com. There it is...after months of reading a lot of comments on this subject, I had to get a few thoughts off my chest... D-cachers Oklahoma

Howdy from OK... Its time I just have to ask a question that I have wondered about for some time: Why do some of you have such a consistently negative stance towards GC.com? From my perspective (that being someone who has been into caching about 7 months, frequently checks out the forums, occassionally drops in a post), it really seems as though there have been some personal events in the past that would have created such an anti-GC.com sentiment. I don't have the lifestyle that allows me to live in the forums on a daily basis and to be in the know on every issue out there, but I do realize that without GC.com and its support of caching over the last few years, geocaching would be but a shadow of itself right now. I know there are policies out there...moving caches, virtuals, etc...that many of us would prefer to be different. What I wonder about, is the seemingly "personal" nature of the negative comments. Thanks in advance. I really am interested...mainly because it seems that the only unenjoyable facet of geocaching I have experienced seems to be found here on the pages of the discussion forums...and I just don't understand... D-cachers

Robert...thanks so much! I rechecked my choices...submitted...and rec'd what I wanted... For some reason, I was checking the I Have Found and I Have Not Found boxes...so they were conflicting the query. I guess I thought they were mutually exclusive variables that would capture both types. Thanks again...its great having help at your fingertips... Have a great Christmas D-cachers

I have held off sending this as I assume I am doing something wrong...but, here goes...just in case there isn't a central problem... I have done PQs before with no problems. Yesterday and today, I have tried six different PQs...rec'd a reponse within 5 mins...but every time it states no results. Is there a list of common user errors? I have read the guidelines at the bottom of the query page. Thanks in advance... D-cachers

Howdy from OK... Couple thoughts to share...while I haven't been a prolific poster...I have been observing a lot of the dynamics here in the discussion forums over the last seven months...so here goes... - Getting paying subscribers may be a challenge...given the number of people who love to use GC.com , and its computer system resources, on a seemingly daily basis, but just can't seem to part with $30 a year. - I agree that while GC.com is the major player, the magazine should be unbiased and objective to all geocaching venues and interests...unless the magazine was being underwritten by GC.com. Then, of course, like it or not, it would be a mouthpiece for GC.com...and some folks simply wouldn't support it for that reason. (Probably on principle...even though, without GC.com, caching would most likely be on a scale much smaller than it is today...and there would be no talk of a magazine) Done right, this could be a great venture...bringing together all the different caching "dialects" from across the USA and even the world. I most likely will subscribe...to give it a chance. Cache on... D-cachers

Its amazing how there are so many folks in these forums who are so quick to criticize and seemingly look for ways to state how things could always be done a better way (usually their way). We are talking about geocaching...lets keep it in perspective. The bottom line is that C2C2C was concerned about having too many people (thereby threatening the quality of the event) and also wanted to get local caching families together. To meet these goals, he chose to limit attendance to a geographical area. I assume that all cachers in that area...white, black, male, female, young, old, rich, poor...would be welcome. IMO thats where the rubber meets the road when people talk about discrimination... This forum thread...and the associated pot-stirring angst... is one of those that makes me wonder if the majority of my fellow cachers have the same stresses in life as I do...or see on the news the same tragedies, both local and across the world... RK...I really respect the way you have consistently stated your position on this... Real news: Our soldiers are in harms way every day...and unfortunately, some die while serving their country. (Now thats worth your attention) C2C2C stated his intent and that should be good enough...

Howdy from Oklahoma... While this thread is interesting and can clearly carry serious overtones...I couldn't help but notice that no one commented on the absolutely hilarious log entry mentioned and linked by SixDogTeam http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?LU...ff-1c22bfc7faef SixDogTeam...thanks for the belly laugh...perfect way to get ready to start another work week in the morning... BTW...I do think that in this day and age we have to be careful how we practice the sport of geocaching...but location seems to be far more important when it comes to the issue of caches being mistaken for bombs. As mentioned by others, if its hidden well to the point where you literally have to be looking for Lat/Long...there probably isn't a problem...

Pear Head...great to hear from you! Yeah...FTFs are tough down here. You were our FCWF (First Cacher We Found) so I definitely remember running into you! Its funny...I don't know which FTF we get more excited about...ones we find...or when someone else finds a cache we hide. We have two hides out there now and it was quite a thrill for us as cache owners to see that we really were capable of successfully placing a cache for others to seek out. PH...I noticed on your page that you actually list your FTFs...I am amazed at the number of FTFs you have. Is it still a thrill for you? D-cachers

Howdy from Oklahoma...we've been caching now for about three and a half months. Initially, I wasn't concerned at all about FTFs...heck, we were just happy to be out there finding them...getting more experience with the GPS, hiding techniques, container types, etc.. About a month ago, though, I read somewhere here on GC.com that when you hit about 70 finds, you should be ready to give back by placing hides. Last month, we hit 70 finds...and decided to prepare for our first hide. At that same time, we decided that it was time to step it up in other ways as well...including actually pursuing a FTF just to see if, when it was all said and done, it was worth the planning, constantly checking GC.com, etc.. So, I started looking daily for FTF possibilities in our area. At every turn, somebody beat me to it. (You start wondering if anybody else actually has a job ) Well, one day after work a "new" cache popped up and I looked at my wife and son and said, "There's a new one 16 miles away...its getting dark, its raining...but, hey, lets do it!" We all three got in the car, drove 16 miles in the rain and pulled up to about .11 miles of the cache. I have to admit, that as we walked the final 250 feet in the rain, I felt a sense of excitement...hoping that we were the first. I was actually looking at the ground in front of me to see if there were any fresh footprints! (I would have never thought that as a 42 year old I would give a hoot about something like this ) When we found the cache, we anxiously opened it up...and even almost hesitated to open the log book for fear that we were too late. When the first page was clean, we turned it over and went to the back just to make sure someone hadn't gotten there first but signed the back page instead of the first. We were thrilled to see that we were the first...our first FTF! Yes...the planning, monitoring, rushing out the door after a long day at work, driving and walking in the rain...was worth it! All I can say, is that in this world of stress and constant challenges, I don't worry about any of that when I am in search of cache...and thats what I love about it! D-cachers

Howdy from OK...I know I am a little late to be posting on this one, but I think its important to take time and share positives...Lord knows this world is full of enough negatives... This is a great feature that helps me be much more efficient as I plan my geocaching day. Since the previous search for caches in my area would be displayed using a 360 degree distance format, I have found myself planning what I thought was a well thought out caching day, only to find out that in reality, I had several caches 20 miles south, a few more due north, and a couple east, west, or both. The result was a day driving all over Oklahoma City. I know that with the previous format I could have identified caches based on the "text" direction info...this new format simply makes it easier...and I appreciate that! As a financial supporter of this site, I appreciate the little upgrades as much as the big upgrades (server additions, bandwith, etc.)...all together, these changes simply benefit all of us...thanks!

Wow...tunacache...just when I thought there was a move in the right direction on this subject... Last month, I "sat" (or feel free to use another term...held, kept, borrowed, etc.) a TB for two weeks (I simply couldn't get out to go caching) and felt like it was an extremely long time. I have only been caching since June 04...and am steadily becoming more aware of the "expectations" that are found in the geocaching community...at least the forum community. In all fairness, I think you said it best in your own e-mail..."way the heck back on 7/9/04"...I think that is a long time to sit on, hold, keep, etc. a TB... Ideal or not, ED's post did lead to at least one person becoming aware of the need to get the TB back out there...and in this wacky world, sometimes you have to put aside the negative and look for the positive... From sunny...and of course, windy, Oklahoma

Again I am totally amazed at how any idea or topic can be misconstrued into a conflict. My wife and I are both sitting here wondering how people have the energy or motivation to stir the pot with just about every subject that comes up. Frankly, there are enough REAL issues in this world that we look for geocaching to give us a way to enjoy the outdoors and share experiences with others. ED...its a great idea...I noticed just the other day that when I retrieved a TB (Waskwy Wabbit) from a cache and went to log it, it had been out of circulation for about 6 months...appeared to be a teenager who picked it up in another state and then simply forgot about it, and finally placed it in a cache. Surely the TB owner had to be wondering where it was...in this case he was lucky. Perhaps if there was a friendly reminder out there, like you are suggesting, then this would have been resolved months earlier. From sunny Oklahoma... D-cachers