Lemon Fresh Dog

Wow.... what a hot topic. Sounds like some folks want a SBA button for fellow cachers. I'm lucky to live in a friendly caching environment. When people haven't found my cache they post a DNF -- I always then send a note asking if they would like an additional hint. If, together, we determine they were looking in the right place I suppose I could Archive -- hasn't happened yet. I even had a cacher find used syringes near a cache and they were nice enough to just let me know and make the decision on my own (I archived, moved and re-instated) In the event of a broken container: people post a note, I post a note saying when I will fix. In several cases, I've had fellow cachers send me a note saying "don't worry about it, I'm in the area and will replace the container for you" From the sounds of some of the posts in this thread -- some people are more concerned about other cachers activities then they are about finding and placing caches. Personally, I hate people that vote themselves the right to live in my back pocket. If you don't like someone or their caches -- it's called a filter -- learn how to use it. Of course, I've never had any problems.

ooooo..... I'll have to place caches exactly one battery charge away. Then, when the cache is found, the Segway will be "empty" -- the hunter will have to walk back and I can go an "collect" all the Segways left at the cache site! However, you raise an interesting point -- how much environmental impact should you have in getting to a cache site? I would worry that these vehicles would cause damage to the trails, etc. In some cases, it is best to lock-up the bike, park the ATV, or de-power the hover-mobile.

I like to hide caches for a couple of reasons: 1) I want people to visit an area they might not normally travel to. Specifically a park or viewpoint. People are more apt to stand-up and protect areas that they are familiar with. 2) I like to contribute to a passtime that I see as being hightly valuable to families and individuals. Creating "purposeful walks" gets people outdoors, enjoying the city parks, etc. 3) My finds are less than my hides.... I want to make sure that I have plenty of caches to find when I have the time to go hunting (at the moment I'm really a busy guy), by doing my part to create a healthy "community" of cachers the sport will remain around for a long time. The city in which I live is a great place to cache! I haven't counted the raw numbers, but there must be at least a 100 or more caches in the area. If this keeps up, then the hobby will reach a critical mass and make it last a long time. For this reason, I am currently placing more "family" caches that aren't too hard to find, but fun for kids to turn over a rock and go "oooooo-- I FOUND IT!" Children especially need to gain an enjoyment of the outdoors at a young age. How many in the city do not get the thrill of exploring rocks and roots and leaves and rivers....... yet, they are all right there in the middle of the city! 4) Practice. I have about 10 caches to place in a very remote area that I only visit once per year. I want to see how my urban caches hold up, learn from them, and place some caches in an area that would be lucky to get a dozen vistors a year -- total -- not just cachers.

Hey -- found this place! I've been on the main forums -- guess I should check here more often

The camera I use is a Minolta DiMAGE 7i. I really like it. It's in the mid-range (not pro, not snapshot-only). My sincerest advice -- start with a good book on Digital Photography. They almost all start with a chapter on how to buy a camera and will get you thinking about how you will use it.

Well, I think the business cards would count as commercial because they serve no other purpose than to promote the purchase of products. If I found them, I would probably not take one -- they wouldn't bother me though. If the cache contained nothing BUT business cards then I would contact the owner and advise them of my opinions. That said, if I found a coupon for $500 off a new vehicle, I would take it if I was in the market for a new vehicle. Again, if that was the ONLY item in the cache it would be a problem. Sometimes I get free concert tickets or event tickets where I cannot attend. I'd rather pop over to one of my caches on a maintenance run and drop them in. No harm, no foul. My thoughts really center around whether the cache is abusing the purpose of the hunt to generate revenue for some person or business. If it is - I would rather not see it listed. If the purpose is to have fun and that involves some minor commercial activity (again, those yummy, yummy donuts come to mind) then I'm fine. Why ruin it for those of us that like donuts. I mean.... where's a donut lover to go! You guys have the Right to Bare(sic) Arms -- us Canadians get donuts! It's in our Charter of Freedoms! ...... um, sorry about that last part.....

This has happened on some caches I placed. I try to make it up by providing a helpful hint and I have taken to using an antena and taking screen shots of my readings (I use a CF card Pocket PC GPSr). Most people read the logs before they go out and that helps.

My thought is that your donation request is a request -- not a requirement. Also, you do not financially benefit. How can this be commercial? We have to be careful of going to silly extremes.... If I place a pin in my cache am I promoting the attraction or event it comes from? Is a Travel Bug commercial (they have to be purchased)? If we place a URL in the cache and that URL sells products (like www.geocaching.com), is it commercial? My thought is that if the cache obligates the purchase of, or is created for the sole purpose of promoting a product or service, then it is commercial. If the site contains some item with a logo or is near a place of business, then it is non-commercial. Even then, some caches are fun and will require some commercial activity. I think that's okay as long as it's up-front and not a benefit to the person hiding the cache -- like the donut taste-test cache.

I agree. Also, I think that a cache can have commercial elements or impact without itself being commercial. Park entrance fees may be involved (should be noted), you may need to pay for parking (urban caches), you might have to buy a GPSr (haha).

GREAT idea! I'm a stamp collector and this would combine my hobbies!

Although I could be wrong, my thought is that the intent of the non-commercial rule is to prevent the placement of caches that result in the owner or someone affiliated with the owner gaining financial benefit from the placement. In my case, I have often purchased gift certificates out of my own funds to "treat" first to finds and fellow cachers to Starbucks, Local Coffee Shops, etc. At the moment, I have one cache (Bat-cache) that requires the finder to enter a commercial establishment to retrieve one of the cache prizes. There are plenty of other prizes in the cache (comics, figures, etc), but this one item was just too big to fit into the cache and is a keystone element for a cacher that wants a really, really cool rememberence of their cache find. In this case, the prize cost me $30 and the place of business is doing me a favour by holding onto it until someone claims it. They do not market products of interest to Geocachers. The cache find does not make entering the establishment or purchasing anything a requirement in order to log or find the cache -- it is entirely in the hands of the finder. (over 20 folks have declined the prize) I think the distinction is that my caches often have items of commercial value (gift certificates, prizes, books, etc), but they are not themselves commercial or intended to generate commercial activity. This is why I believe they are valid. Also, I think that we have to view the spirit in which a cache is listed. The donut caches are examples of what I would call FUN. They are clear that they require you to "taste-test" a donut and have FUN doing so. Heck --- us Canadians REALLY, REALLY like donuts. We eat more than the entire US....that's not per capita....that's more donuts in TOTAL. Besides, after a hard day of caching, a nice coffee and donut is a great idea. Are they commercial? I think that they require the cacher to outlay some money -- but no more than it would cost for gas or supplies on a back-country trip. Plus, the listing is pretty clear about it. I'd be pretty upset if the listing was vague and I ended up at a cache site where I was invited to a 30-minute presentation on vacation properties! So, I guess my measure of commercial vs. non-commercial is one of intent, awareness, and personal involvment. I'd love to create a Mc-Cache in which all McToys are returned to a central McDonalds restaurant. "Log Entry: Left 100 items, took nothing, signed log" -- would that be a trash in, cache out event?

Normally the most expensive thing I place in a cache is around $20. Sometimes I place $5 gift certificates for coffee. The most expensive item I ever placed was a coupon which could redeemed for a super-secret prize at a nearby location (store), but after 29 finds -- noone has even taken it and it's still waiting at the store! (Bat-Cache if anyone wants it!) If I place a comic, graphic novel or other "collectable" item, I write www.geocaching.com on it to discourage muggling. One time I placed a cache and it had about $10 worth of stuff in it. There was all this sticky black liquid in the area and a bizare looking set of rock formations that were kinda sparkly and these wierd shiny rocks in the area. The view must have really excited people because executives from a oil company, gold company and diamond distrbutor all started buying up the land all around my cache and I had to move it.....

I'd love to mail you some northern hospitality in the form of some Canadian items -- I'm thinking some Chinese New Year Commemorative postage stamps if you're game!

I try to place a nice note in a clear plastic folder cover on the top of the cache -- the one you can download off the GEOcaching site. My thought is that most people who find it unintentionally will actually be interested in keeping it a secret and may return to show friends etc. If the area is more heavily trafficed, try to place less enticing trading items. If the items are seen as so-so, then they are less likely to be stolen. Other than that, assume that every cache in an urban environment will be taken at some point and enjoy them while they last.

Sorry to the folks that can't see the film. I did test it on Firefox (Apple and XP), IE 6 (Apple and XP) and Safari (only on Apple's). The reason I am using QuickTime is that it allows me to put in hints for the streaming server that hosts it. This allows it to stream rather than have to download in it's entirety (it's about 13MB in size). Providing a download link would not help if your QuickTime isn't working (or if it isn't installed). If you did want to install QuickTime (personally I find it very nice) then www.apple.com is the place to find it. You may want to "uncheck" the subscription boxes if you don't want them sending you updates, etc) It should be a single download. At any rate, I hope to make a more polished GEOcaching film and may offer that in two formats - QuickTime and Windows Media. Maddie is very excited about the fact that so many people have gone "geo-caching with her". Thanks!

Hey! Thanks for the nice comments! How about some links to some other websites of photos, films and the like? Promoting GEOcaching is a great way to keep the hobby healthy (I think). For those having challenges viewing the film -- you can get a free download of QuickTime at www.apple.com I use Linux, XP as well as my Apples to create the content (I'm a self-confessed computer geek and actually train folks on how to use them). The only problem I've had is on Linux systems. However, it's also a rather large film and if you are on dial-up that could effect your ability to get the film. Thanks again everyone -- Maddy and I continue to hunt and place caches and hope that you will visit our caches if you are in the area!

Hello there, I am interested in knowing about how folks are promoting their interest in GEOcaching on their personal websites? I made a quick film which was fun to do -- I need to add some music, but I think it captures the experience of my daughters enthusiasm. My GEOcaching Film

I'm an old scout - Cubs, Scout, Venturer, Leader. Although I am no longer involved with Scouts (my daughter is 3 and a half). I do try to place Scouting items into my caches when I can -- old Jamboree patches etc. I think it's a great idea to teach orienteering.

My thought is that most crimes are crimes of convenience. Although possible, I think the likelyhood of someone planning a crime around Geocaching is unlikely. Trusting your instincts, watching your surroundings, and using the old "strength in numbers" rule is a good idea. Avoiding caching at night, dusk, or in areas with known problems is probably your safest bet. In remote areas (ie, National Parks, backcountry) I would travel with a firiend for reasons way beyond human preditor problems. Also, most assaults on victims in city boundries are either crimes of convenience (wrong place, wrong time), or if they are of the stalker variety, then they tend to be against folks such as walkers or joggers that follow the same route every day or two (sicko sees jogger every day for a week and attacks them). Geocachers ussually visit an area once or twice and not on a pattern. Trust your instincts, travel with friends, don't be afraid to just walk away.

The cache is moved! I went to the area today and pulled the cache from under the rock cave where it was hiding. It was a shame to be reminded of how peaceful and serene this area is. It's too bad that I can't bring more people into the area to see it. At least the drug users have found a pleasent place to shoot up. The new coordinates are: Lat:51.03.4634 Lon:114.09.6127 I've posted a reviewers note (I hope this is the correct proceedure to re-enable a cache at new coordinates). I've also created a "First to Find" page for the new co-ords in the logbook, but didn't have any gift certificates for coffee handy (sorry) Thank you to everyone for all your feedback on what to do etc. I wish this was the last time I encountered such a problem, but always must be vigilent. It reminds all of use to be careful no matter where we may be.

I would think that if a cache owner was aware of a danger or property issue at the time of placing a cache they may be in for more than they bargained for. Intentionally leading someone to tresspass or into a danger that you know about is not only morally abhorant, but also possibly illegal? If someone comes across a sign that says "No Tresspassing" I think what the owner of the land is trying to convey is: Don't Tresspass. Of course, sometimes in public lands, the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing! I've placed several caches on the site of an academic institution's grounds. Before I did this, I got written confirmation from the facilities Manager and have kept this written confirmation on file (I also mentioned it to the cache reviewer). This way, if someone is arrested or challenged, I can help them out by providing the auhorization form that was given to me. Although this has been a heated topic and some tit-for-tat stuff has been flying around, I do appreciate the chance to discuss the topic. It has made me decide on a new cache proceedure for all my future caches (and the old ones too). 1) I will place my cache and decribe the intended audience in the listing (children, mountain climbers, mountain bikers, etc) 2) I will warn of all dangers I am aware of -- and will not place in an area that can cause harm to others. 3) If I place the cache on private land, I will get permission (IN WRITING) and place a copy of this permission IN THE CACHE. This way, if someone get "caught" they can cite and provide proof that they are permitted to cache in the area. Barring this, they can contact me and I can fax, e-mail, or otherwise provide proof. I will also note that I have obtained this permission in the reviewers notes. 4) If a cache is placed in an area that later proves to be dangerous, environmentally sensitive, or has permission revoked by the land owner, I will archive and move the cache as soon as possible. I think that over-all, adopting policies such as these will help build the hobby and make it acceptable to others. If we abuse the rights and property of others in our hobby, we may find ourselves in danger of becoming outlawed in some areas. Mountain Bikes face similar challenges in gaining access to many back-country trails. I've been blocked from area that I wish to ride through because other bikers have built stunt jumps, log trails, and other man-made objects. As for the Groundspeak crew archiving a cache without the permission of the owner -- I have NO problem with that. The website belongs to Groundspeak and they may be at legal risk themselves if they *promote* tresspass or other illegal activity when they have been made aware of it. If they recieve notice in any way that something *might* be illegal or dangerous, they should err on the side of caution, archive the cache, contact the owner (who should be able to provide written confirmaton of permission) and then re-instate the cache when they are confident that this permission is valid or the danger has been removed. IMHO, of course. All of this could have been avoided from what I see if there was a simple e-mail or paper on file that said "you can place a cache here and people can come visit it at night when the park is closed" the name of the person providing this permission would then act as a first contact if someone disputed the claim. (like the police!)

Well, having been the owner of the recent "drug cache" here's what was going through my head when I pulled it: 1) most of my caches are family-orientated. I want children to enjoy time with their parents and have fun. I note this in the cache listing. 2) My caches are all "themed": reading, viewpoint, playground for kids. Also noted in the listed. So, when it comes to responsibility, I feel the following: A) Health and Safety. You must not endager lives from falling, drowning, violence, or potential damage to health (ie. getting stuck by a used syringe or bitten by a coyote in it's den). Outdoor activities have *some* risk, but not of this type. Respect: for private property, noise, traffic, environmental safety (such as closed trials or replanting areas) C) Gameplay: It's a game and should be treated as such. Challenge younger and older players with appropriate puzzles, hides, etc. D) Use the rating system: For some folks, doing a rock face climb 50 meters up a limestoneor granite cliff is fun. For others, deadly! Note the general conditions in your listing. Some things I think are pretty much no-brainers though. Don't bury your cache on a railway track, next to quicksand, near a wolf den, etc. Of course, sometimes you get surprized! I had NO idea that there might be drug users in the area of the cache I placed with my daughter. It makes me sad to have "Maddy and Daddy 1" archived until I move it. Take a look at the gallery -- my daughters smiling cache-hiding face does not anticipate the syringes that found themselves nearby. I'm not going to be the guy that indirectly has another cacher (young, old, informed or not) infected with Hepatitis. Generally, I think the game works well as long as cache owners remember that with ownership comes responsibility.

Hmmm... I never thought about that aspect. I think what I will do is move the cache into a slightly more public area of the same park (it's a lovely park and one that supports many families -- three playgrounds, picnic area, BBQ pits, river, etc, etc). I like the idea of still drawing traffic to the area (no pun intended), but simply cannot use my cache to draw people to an area that is unsafe. I consider the area as dangerius as a cliff, railway, or other area that caches should not be placed). Very good comment though -- made me think. Now I have to figure how I can move a cache a greater distance and maintain the name and logbook.

Quick update -- called the police and they took the info on the location. I also learnt that the Fire Department is in charge of removing syringes. (in Calgary, at least)

The link above was interesting -- thank you. I did indeed archive the cache -- about 20 minutes after being informed of the problem. I now have to go and move it this weekend (or if someone is in the area, I've given them the green light to do so) What is somewhat shocking is how this area is not what we would normally consider "drug" land. It goes to show that you never, ever, know. The person that found the cache last did toss the syringes, but who knows how many are still hiden nearby in the somewhat secluded area. I think a good geocache policy would be that any sign of danger in the area of a geocache (drugs, gangs, predators) is a good sign to move and archive the cahce. IMHO I guess I'll call the police to see if they care. I'm sure they are probably aware of most everything that goes on in each area, but this area may be of interest.