Lemon Fresh Dog

So where do you stand on removing another persons cache completely? Would you advocate removing any items you do not like without trading for them? It may be that I am mis-understanding your intent. I thought you would remove a cache you felt was full of junk and I thought that you considered a half-chewed army figure to be junk. Please clarify. Sorry in advance if I got it wrong.

oops. I spoke too soon earlier -- the referees in the game are the cache approvers. I meant there are no field referees watching what is placed into the traded in caches. One challenge that has not been mentioned is CITO a cache for less-obvous reasons. You don't like the person that placed the cache, you hate micros, you want to place your own cache in the location. Allowing CITO's of caches opens a whole can of worms. My personal thought is that when a cache owner places a cache, they are sort of "staking a claim" to the GPS co-ordinates listed. If it turns out they are not maintaining the cache, then the sheriff should be called (geocaching.com) and if they have indeed left the area (stopped maintaining the cache) the co-ords should be returned to the pool of available locations.(archive it) If someone stakes a claim and builds a house or has furniture you don't like -- too bad for you. If someone stakes a claim and illegal or offensive stuff starts to occur at the site -- let them know and give them a chance to fix it. Don't take it upon yourself to "fix" or "improve" their claim.

Just to re-iterate my thought to your original post. I don't think you have the right to CITO a cache that does not belong to you under ANY circumstances. There are no referees in this game - self-appointed or otherwise. It would be sad if there was really. I guess my biggest fear is that you come across one of my caches, decide it is "junk", haul it away. It just doesn't seem very respectful. If you e-mailed me and told me that the cache was full of water and broken junk -- I'd probably just go and fix the problem. What are some of the trading items you like to find in a cache?

Just be cautious not to *improve* the sport by violating my rights to enjoy the sport in my unique way -- which means: Don't remove or otherwise "edit" my caches. Thanks. I know exactly what I am doing. Placing my caches for others to enjoy, visiting other caches for pleasure (and the occasional trade), having fun. To Add: What you think is "right" and what I think is "right" may be different. Please maintain and stock and trade in whatever way makes you feel happy, but allow me (and others) to do the same. If you remove my cache or otherwise *improve* it beyond a simple trade-- I may be offended. Let's say you feel its the "right" thing to do by letting people know about your personal religious beliefs -- would you then advocate removing all trade items from a cache and replacing them with religious material? -- I think you'll find some argument there. Be nice and have fun! What DO you place in caches you find?

As an example of a marginal item -- I have several "reading" caches which contain comic books, graphic novels, and regular novels. If someone were to find a particular author or image offensive, should they be permitted to remove the cache? the item? They may base their view on their personal definition of pornographic, violent, or whatnot. To extrapolate further, what of matter of religion, philosophy or personal bias? I, for example, am a vegitarian and an animal rights advocate -- and would not be happy if someone placed a coupon for a free hamburger in one of my caches -- but I certainly would never dream of removing it. Same goes for hunting badges and pins. There is also something to be said about "survival" caches. These would be aimed at backcountry hikers in extremely remote locations, would not be "hidden" in the traditional sense, may contain some non-perisable food items, a knife, or a pack of waterproof matches. I'm not sure if any are listed here at www.geocaching.com -- but if they were they might violate some "rules" or "guidelines", but I wonder if they would be allowed? Strictly - no, but would they be approved based upon their nature? They would benefit from a geocacher finding them and ensuring they are well-stocked: "Took nothing, left survival blanket and flare, replaced battery on beacon device, signed log" It is, then, something I think best left to the cache approver to decide whether to list a cache and left to the owner to decide when a cache or item is to be removed as an act of "cleaning" the cache. Players get to find and trade.

Actually, if you could buy pre-paid cards -- they'd make for a great FTF prize.

My preference is that others do not make subjective decisions about items others have placed in my caches. If there are any items that are in a state of disrepair or which may be offensive to some cachers (either within or outside of the official guidelines), I would prefer a note to that effect and I will maintain the cache accordingly as the cache owner. If I fail to do so within a reasonable time-frame, then I suppose I would have no problem with the removal of so-called "garbage". In my case, I maintain caches I own. If a cache owner is not acting responsibly, then the cache should actually be reviewed for possible de-listing (IMHO). I enjoy if someone trades an item of higher "value" for an item of lesser "value" to make the cache more interesting, but neither expect or require it. I would like to extend the offer to anyone to replace items in my caches with high-value gold bullion (1 ounce or wieghtier). Please let me know when you have done this! Basically, I place caches for others to enjoy -- not for others to dictate their own personal bias' and desires upon -- either through editorial actions or self-appointed maintenace activities. There is, however, an exception I allow to the above -- that is when a cache container or logbook is damaged. In these cases only, I am always grateful for a new container, a new log, a fresh pencil -- or other such truely helpful field repairs. Of course, a note asking me to maintain the cache is equally effective. The best way to help this hobby is to lead by example and place nice items into caches without worrying about how and what others do to enjoy their experience of the game. What items do you place into caches? Some of what I place might be considered "junk" -- I place trading card game cards, old collectible stamps, little puzzles, etc.

That's a GREAT cache to read the logs on! Very, very interesting! (also my old area of the globe)

oooooo! -- that last post made me think of a really cool feature that could be given to Premium Members -- the ability to rate caches and see the ratings! If only Premium Members were permitted to rate and see ratings on caches, I can imagine some folks would join for that. (of course, others would still be able to post positive or negative comments in the find logs)

I have heard of something "sort of" like this come to think of it. That would be groups that pre-post their caches to a "clan" so that the cache can be searched prior to it becoming part of the geocaching.com site. Sort of a "I placed a cache HERE, go see it, don't sign the book, take a photo and watch people visit it when it gets approved on teh site." A little different from what you described, but with some similarities. I don't much care for that -- I prefer the FTF to be the REAL FTF.

I totally agree that this isn't the best way to get new cachers. I was just thinking about a sort of "fringe-benefit" to some caches in more public areas. I would assume that the majority would still be 90-95% regular cacher finds and then, due to placement, maybe a 5% new cacher/non-cacher hit.

Thanks for the replies -- I am very happy to see that a non-cacher-to-cacher has posted here! I appreciate that some folks question whether I should even be doing this -- but my motivation is pretty sincere. I like the hobby and hope that others will too. My thought is that there is plently of room for more cachers in my area at least. I'm not thinking about "plain site" caches though. I'm just thinking about caches in areas where there is lots of outdoor activities and *might* be found occasionally by non-cachers. What I am really looking for here is information on how often your caches have been found by non-cachers, and/or how often your caches have gone completly missing.

First -- I hate the use of the word muggles....but "when in Rome" That out of the way -- I was thinking of placing a couple of caches (intentionally) in areas where they may very well be discovered by folks that are not seeking them. By keeping them cheap, interesting, and full of information on Geocaching -- I am hoping they might be found by non-cachers and bring some new folks into the hobby as well. That said, I was wondering what others experiences have been with the following? 1) How many of your caches have been found by non-cachers and had the logbook signed with something like "hey, found this today -- seems like a fun game, I'm not a cacher, but think I'll try it out." 2) How many of your less hiden caches have gone missing completely (less friendly finders)? I thought there was a thread in this earlier, but can't seem to find it now.

Interesting. As a cache owner I would prefer to know if someone visited one of my caches, but that's okay -- play the game, have fun. I agree it would be a problem if everyone did this.

I'm a premium member -- so I'm already happy....but.... I would find a Membership "Kit" to be very enticeing. Some of the things I'd like to see in the "kit" 1) Geocaching patch or decal that is ONLY available to Premium Members with year on it (so a new one each year). 2) Special "Premium Member Travel Bug" - only in the kit - use it or collect it. Maybe a different color than the current bugs. 3) Premium Member cache container (one regular, one micro?) or the ability to purchase same. 4) A collection of discount coupons from outdoor suppliers that wish to support the Geocaching community (off of supplies, etc) Of course, I wouldn't expect ALL the above for $30. The postage alone would cost a bit as well as the cost to manufacture any of the above, but just having something that is limited or exclusive to premium members would be neat. (something physical) What I'd like to be able to do is place some "decorations" into/onto my caches that indicate that they were placed by a Premium Member. Why? Well.... no logical reason -- just a way of supporting the hobby and site. This is similar to sites like a movie fan club. There may be an exclusive toy or figure that you can get only if you are a fan club member. hahaha! Maybe a "Geocaching Action Hero Figure!" no.....no..... that would be horrible.....

I use notes for cache maintenance. I suppose that if I had several DNF's on the cache, I might log a maintenance visit as a "found" in order to let people know that it is indeed there. Some folks don't read the notes and the "found" icon following several DNF's would let them know it is still in place.

Many of my caches have been found by "teams" - I like when each member writes a log and signs the logbook. I've never seen a joint FTF though! One of my favourite imagined scenarios is when two cachers that are working separately arrive at the site at the same time -- who finds it first! I've often thought of placing and posting 25 caches at once -- just to cause this fun pandemonium!

Some of the experiences folks have had with wild animals are interesting. I'm thinking of getting some pepper spray to carry in remote hikes. I'm not sure if I can carry this in urban caching, but I'll carry a stick at least. (many times I have my bike lock with me too -- which would hurt someone if I hit them with it). I've only ever heard of one coyote attack (well.... ) It involved a sick coyote in Banff Park that bit a person at a campground (I think sometime around 1988/89)-- pets beware!, coyotes here eat them on a regular basis. Cougars seem to target children from what I've heard/seen -- but there's a case of a cougar attacking a lady on a horse and killing her. (in her case, there was little that would have helped, the cougar lept from hiding and there would have been no time to defend herself). My sister teaches in a remote area on the West Coast of Canada and took her class to a lake for a picnic. She went to the campground washroom and saw a cougar on top of one of the buildings -- she quietly and carefully rounded the children up and got out of there. A friend of the family was out hunting, heard a noise behind him while sitting on a rock, saw a couger, spun around and shot it with his gun. In that case having the gun probably saved him. (would pepper spray have? -- I don't know). It now lives in his living room. Interestingly, there was a recent Wolf attack on the West Coast of Canada -- which I "think" is the first attack on a human by a Wolf ever. I do not know the outcome or if weapons were involved. Recently, here in Alberta, a lady was attacked (and I believe killed) by a bear while hunting. She had a gun which didn't help her. Bear attacks are by far the most common attacks that I have heard about. I once mountain-biked down a hill to see a baby bear cross the path directly in front of me! Needless to say, it was the fastest uphill turnaround I have ever done! (never saw momma -- never wanted to). My worst bear incident was when I was being really stupid -- listening to a walkman (remember those?) in the woods. I turned to my side and there was the rear-end of a very large bear about 6-8 feet away! It turned, looked at me and kept walking. My heart was later removed from my throat and I changed my pants. I didn't have a gun or pepper spray -- so I could have been in trouble there.

untrue -- provide an example. I have thanked those that have given me good information. Even if that information does not support my current view.

It could be your logic is at fault for giving your bias. I didn't attack you. I attacked your argument. There is a major difference. Unless, of course, you are your argument. Heck, I'm even unapologetic that I have no respect for invalid arguments. How can you attack my argument. It doesn't exist. I'm looking for INFORMATION not a fight.

Mountain Lions (Cougars) as well as Polar Bears are two animals in North America that I know will intentionally stalk and hunt humans for food. Polar Bears most of the time, Cougars occasionally. I haven't done much outdoors in exceptionally remote areas of the world (a little in Germany where wild boar are apparently out there?) There is also some cases of Grizzly, Kodiac and the rare Black Bear attack which were unprovoked -- and hard to use avoidence techniques on. In these areas it may be wise to carry some sort of defense tool. I have yet to cache the Polar Regions!, but Cougars are in many places I ride and cache. Has anyone here used Pepper Spray? What are peoples thoughts on this?

That's right. I don't change my beliefs without thought. I need to research, read and understand the data. It's called rational inquiry. You know, you and I will never agree. You think I have an agenda to change peoples views about guns. You don't believe me when I say I am only concerned about my own beliefs and do not care if others share them or not (many in my own family are very pro-gun and hunt) Hopefully you know that while I disagree with you -- it is not an attack on your person or character. Some of your actions I have taken as insulting and maybe that isn't fair on my part. I admit I get "ticked" when I feel I am beig falsely accused. I'm going to go ahead and let people read what I have already posted, let them make their own decisions on whether my questions were part of an "agenda" or part of a curious mind trying to understand others. Don't take it personally that I disagree with your beliefs -- I'm okay that you don't share mine.

See -- you ARE clever. You figured out that I don't like guns. Was this when I TOLD you that? I never made a secret about my own BIAS. The difference between us is that I repsect others views. listen to them. I don't accuse them of pushing their views down my throat or having agendas. I also have no agenda -- this is a geocaching forum where we share ideas about how to enjoy the hobby -- I'm here to learn why people do what they do in relation to geocaching and, to some extent, outdoor adventuring. You are making false accusations, Calling me a Troll? Saying I am trying to tick people off? Saying I am attacking the US people and policies? You didn't even ANSWER my questions -- how could you "blow me out of the water" -- and if your goal was to "blow me out of the water" then you are attacking me and my beliefs -- not very respectful Mr.Coyote. If your intent was to inform and share ideas, then I thank you. (as I have done with many others) You feel you are being attacked when you are not. You feel I am promoting an agenda when I am not. Sorry of by telling you that I don't like guns, gun culture, and the damage guns cause that you feel the way you do. I'm honest about my bias' and seek to ensure I understand the topic logically to prevent myself from holding false bias. You have done nothing to convince me my bias' are incorrect -- others have provided me excellent resources to think about. Not you. By-the-way, you will see that I am also one of the people that has said carrying is a personal choice. One that I personally don't share, but a personal choice none the less.

I'm okay with what you are saying. I'm on the same side of that viewpoint - I think guns are really very useless things.... in MY life. That said, in my posts I was trying to find the logical core surrounding the decision to carry or not (either caching or outdoors). While I emotionally and "gut-intinct" agree with you, I have not been able to find good sources to support either argument (carry, no-carry) from a logical, scientific standpoint. There have been several people that have constructed viewpoints based on hypothetical possibilites, but have not quantified the probablility of those possibilities. For example, "If I was in the woods and a bad guy attacked me, I'd want a gun!" -- I suspect that the probability of this happening is so low as to be almost nil. I do not have information on the accidental deaths caused by guns in the woods which I can draw comparisons to (it was suggested I go away and use Google though!). There was an interesting post about the women attacked in Yosemite which I found interesting and others have given some good, rational opinions and links. I think in your post you provide an example of being in a statistically more dangerous area and not having had the personal need for a gun - because this is personal experience, expect to be subjected to contrary personal evidence. My suspicion is that the first responders will give one-off examples of people that "would have lived .... if only they had a gun!". As you can probably tell from some of the posts, there are some emotions starting to fly around here (me too) and I'm actually returning from trying to learn to lurking (unless I get personally attacked or mis-quoted again!). Your post is sure to get some intelligent, respectful responses. Good Luck! -- post quick! I think this forum is so far Off-Topic that it will be locked very, very soon!

That is a very, very good idea! Maybe she signed a logbook on one of the caches that can place her in the specific location at a certain time or date. If she normally carries a cell phone, maybe it could be used as a "beacon". Call the number, let it ring, listen. Move into the area, repeat.