Lemon Fresh Dog

You could just tell me and I promise not to let anyone know (we're in the same city) I like the idea, because I also have an 8-stage to place and worry about the exact same problem.

Great idea! I love the idea of not only marking "historically" significant caches, but also caches of particular note. (There's always that one that comes up with the underground chamber and the button to air it out). Historical caches would be great! Hey -- maybe someone could write a book: "The Geocaching Tourists Guide: Historial, Significant and Creative Caches for the Adventursome" Hahaha (royalties may be sent to .......)

As promised -- I'm closing the thread to visit the parasite cache thread.

Nothing about trading here -- original post. Lot's about what is junk and CITO'ing the cache. The ENTIRE cache? A SUBSET? TRADE involved?

Sorry -- you called me a liar. Now you can have the last word.

Don't lie... the scenario I offered CLEARLY contained trade. Everyone knows it. It's in the thread MULTIPLE times. I think you are simply realizing what a cache controling fiend you have become, and are ducking, because I am calling you on it. I AM a cache-owning fiend -- to the benefit of all. YOU are not. I've answered your scenario -- I don't CARE about intent -- just trade, problem solved. Last question: Point blank.... Have you EVER advocated the removal of an item from a cache, such as a broken army man figure, WITHOUT trading for it? or, are you suggesting that you will ALWAYS trade from a cache.

We're actually pretty good for caches here in both condition and responsibility. I've gotten a little beaten in the forums when I advocate that simple, responsible cache-ownership is the best way to avoid having people take ownership upon themseleves (hence, my initial fear of off-topicness). So what I am getting at is a simple: "let's make sure caches are owned" I suppose a "possible orphan" could be "adopted" in the little scheme above. This just creates a cache to owner relationship where every cache has an designated driver. I'm still scared, but so far great responses!

Never said anything bout trading. Other than "go for it" If you want to trade something NICE (which I always do) -- more power to you. If you want to change the container to a friendlier color, move it a little to make it easier for kids to find, take away items you think are no-good without trading (such as a broken or cracked army man)..... hey.... we've been here before. If you want to keep changing your OWN argument -- go ahead. Don't change mine. Ta-ta -- I've started a topic I'm interested in and will not be able to visit you for some time -- nor continue our circular little dance. You may now have the last word ---- which I have no idea will attribute yet another falicious statement of MY belief's rather that clearly state your OWN.

I guess I should add what I have been doing in the absence of the "heartbeat" I visit each of my caches at least every 6 months and post a note as to their condition. The only acception is if I have had a recent visit to one of my back-country caches.

I'm a little scared to start this one, but here it goes. Hopefully we can keep this serious and on topic. Okay..... What are folks thoughts on the suggestion of a cache RE-Approval system? The idea being that once a cache is approved, every 6 months or so (purely arbitrary), a "heartbeat" e-mail is sent to the cache owner? If the owner responds in the affirmative that they are continuing to maintain ownership, the cache remains alive. If the owner fails to respond, then a "possible orphan" flag is raised. What happens after that I don't know. It strikes me that the above would not impose any new rules, would not require a great administrative effort, and would not negate any of the other mechanisms in use currently. The benefit? A filter criteria that allows me to see caches that may not have had any visits for awhile, but still have an active owner and be a viable trip. I know there are many heated topics on what is a maintained cache, the finder raising the SBA flag, etc, etc. What I am trying to find is a workable, respectful system that ensures caches are "owned" by someone responsible. As a note: If one person asks me to close this thread, for any reason, I will. Just post "I think we're off-topic, please close" and I will. Also, if this has been discussed intelligently elsewhere, please let me know and I will close this topic. I am VERY concerned that this could become a philospohical debate on what a cache "should" be and "how" it should be maintained. I just want to know if the "heartbeat" idea has any merit.

Ummm... do you have a problem because I take responsibility for my cache and control it? C'mon. Answer the POST not one line to further your delusions. If I move into your neighbourhood does that give you the right to control my house and items in it? Even if I invite you over by posting an invitaion? Does that give you the right to come in and control what you consider dirty or unacceptable to YOUR stadards? Build your OWN house. When I place a cache I "give" you the experience and an opportunity to trade. You think I also give you the oportunity to control, clean and otherwise modify the object which I placed time, thought and creativity into creating. Sorry, it doesn't work that way around here buddy. If you and others do this, then cache placers will tire of your meddlesome "benefits" and soon resort to micro's, virtuals, and 5/5's -- not kid friendly in the extreme. If you and your ilk ever began to mess with my caches, I would soon exclude you from benefiting from my "gift" by not posting caches for you, but rather privately to to like-minded, respectful cachers. I would even consider removing my existing caches and visiting yours to take ownership of them (but you have no caches, do you? Your reasons for not having any seem to be that you are afraid to take true ownership. Personally, I don't mind cleaning up after the party, so if the cache become a mess, I clean it. *I* clean it). I place approximately $20-$30 worth of new items in each of my caches each year to improve them -- in what *I* consider a beneficial way. I leave it to others to manage their own treasures in the woods. If I want to help them, I'll e-mail them or trade items -- not co-own their hunts. You are the meglomanic because you seek rules and justifications to control the entire game in the name of the sport. You introduce ideas that do nothing but exclude cache owners from the right to their own caches or at best place them in the position of a spectator to their own concept and work. You claim this will benefit the players that seek caches because it will improve the quality of caches. Will it? Or will it frustrate cache owners to the point of deciding not to place caches due to cache-cops and other geo-vermin. Myself, I just want to be a responsible cache owner free from meddlesome "do-gooders" that do no good other than for themselves. Visit my caches, but they don't belong to you. They belong to ME, exclusively, because I am responsible for them. You are a visitor, act as such and have the humility to respect your status as a guest -- not a co-owner through forced management. Because you have demonstrated a lack of subjective logic when it comes to trash (bubblegum wraper) versus "lower-value" items (a broken army man), my preference is that you simply trade. Nothing more. Actually, I prefer you don't even visit my caches. Your type of "help" is the sort of thing that hurts the game. This has been explained to you time and again. I am glad you feel justified in not being wanted by many cache owners. If you argue that some cache owners appreciate your help, compile a list and help them. Maybe you and your like-minded friends can leave those of us that don't appreciate you alone by leaving our caches alone or using them in the way they intended. When in doubt as to whether your help is needed, send an e-mail asking -- respect. You have visited only a few caches -- and that's okay. Have you improved them? Have the cache owners asked you to? Are they grateful? Then they are your new friends. Find more. "Improve" my cache -- or even suggest it, and you will not find a friendly response. Sorry about that. You are assigning yourself "rights" that do not exist in the sport. The cache owner is the cache owner -- not the "cache placer" or the "giver of the cache". If you want to give yourself the "right" to clean a cache -- become an owner.

No Lemons....hmmmm... I could take that personally. Anyhow, to the topic at hand. I think that those placing caches must respect both private, public, and environmentally sensitive properties and places. Get permission. Assume your cache has a finite life-span and attach it in a way that does not interfere with function of the place it is attached or hidden. Nor should it leave perminent effects behind (glue, screws, spray paint). When placing a cache also consider how it will eventually be de-placed. Hopefully that's "getting it" -- side note: people generally don't like to be called stupid.

If you are able to logically draw the conclusions above from any of my posts -- then you are unable to logically process information. My caches are enjoyed by many MANY children. My caches are primarily created FOR children, BY my 3 year-old daughter. As a matter of fact, one cache (Ed's Cache in Calgary, Alberta) was a cache found by my daughter. It was a completely rusted coffee can. Had a pile of mush at the bottem that used to be paper. But....it had a plastic whistle..... a wonderful plastic whistle.... We took it home, gave it a boiling water bath (which I would do no matter WHAT shape it appeared to be in) and she LOVES it! Since that time, logs have been left for the owner of the cache. They were unable to get it clean, so another cacher replaced the container and cleaned-up the cache for the owner (AFTER RESPECTFULLY CONTACTING THE OWNER via logs and possibly e-mail) You should not fear placing caches -- just maintain them. Players should have no role in cache maintenance. That is not only the owner's RIGHT, but also RESPONSIBILITY. If, and only if, they are contacted and fail to commit to their reposnsibility can other actions be taken -- from cleaning to archiving as appropriate. Sorry, but the system actually works with the exception of a few meglomaniacs.

Trade all you want. The issue is your subjective "cleaning". Trade all you want. The issue is your subjective "cleaning". I said it several times above. I said it twice here. My "gift" to the sport is not my cache. That is only the beginning. I maintain my own caches and continue to provide the "gift" by having well-maintained caches. If you find one of my caches in disrepair I will fix it. That's the "gift". What's your gift to the sport? I know as a cache placer that I do not appreciate your type of player -- one that seeks to use my cache as an opportunity to "improve" the game to match their perspective. Why don't you place your own caches? Why?

Coyotes like to eat pets. Otherwise they are really not a concern. I only ever heard of one sick coyote biting a human at a campsite years ago -- and, given it was a National Park and densely camped, I suspect it was a wildlife feeding issue (here, funny doggy....here's a snacky-snack). Anyhow, I live on the edge of an urban park with at least one active coyote pack. Most of my caches are in that park and I have never had any problems. I did once see a great cache hiding spot, until I realized it was their den -- so I avoid a small area around that opening. They might get fussy if they have pups. Otherwise -- enjoy them -- they are very neat animals. My dog even got a bonus rabbit leg to eat once when we came across a kill site of theirs. Funny story -- but not for now.

Agreed and agreed. I'm going out geocaching. If you or anyone else begins to "police" my caches they will either see my caches removed, made exclusive to my friends, or a surprize left that requires cleaning. (and police is a bad word, because police have badges and are authorized by the "state" -- you are actually cache-thieves with similar philosophies to many despots in history because you are self-appointed. You rob others of enjoying the game through your "improvements" which are only "improvements" unto yourself. Similar to the "improvements" made to humanity by those seeking ethnic cleansing -- your philosophical brethren, really)

Ahhhh... there you are incorrect. There is a difference between control and possession. If you mix the two, you end-up being very obnoxious. While possession gives the the opportunity to control -- control relates more closely to the act of making executive decisions about an object and the ultimate ownership of that object. Any player that mixes the two is a "cache-cop" or a "cleaner". They may find that their brand of "control" is not appreciated. You seem to assume that your cache find is a find in the absence of placement. The only reason you are finding a cache is because it was created, placed and posted. All of which are at risk when you confuse possession with control. Make no mistake about it. If you find a car in a parking lot with the engine running, do you feel obligated to drive it away and get it washed for the owner. Motivation aside -- it is still is an act with a name.

My unique perspective should be respected as should everyone elses. The difference is that my perspective does not seek to control others caches -- yours does. What is it that you want? What is your objective in this game? Why do you cache? These are questions you need to ask. When you suggest you will be my "cache angel" be very aware that there is a fine line between angel and devil. Again, what are you trying to accomplish? There is little discourse at this point and your single conclusion seems to be "everyone has a unique perspective" -- okay, now that you are aware of this fact -- I guess the best I can say is -- welcome to life. Do not FORCE your perspective onto me by modifying the intent of MY cahces. I still encourage you to do and allow whatever you want with your OWN caches.

Oh... I WILL thank you. Players are NEVER a problem. Self-appointed "cleaners", self-appointed administrators, priests-of-the-cache -- especially under the so-called name of game-improvement - they are the problem. I place caches for players. I do not place caches for your philosophical shennanigans. If you not get pleasure in SEEKING my caches, or understand the very, very basic rules of the game -- you are not my target audience and I prefer that you do not hunt my cahces. To this end, if people insist on living in other people's pockets, then the game will not be "improved" -- it will fragment. People will create groups of like-minded cohorts and exclude those elements that do not appeal to them. You are, in fact, HURTING the game by modifying its foundational rules and norms arbitrarily. While you claim to seek clarification in the name of game maturity and the establishment fo new norms -- you fail to see what is directly in front of you: people accept your removal of a gum wrapper -- they do not accept your removal of items on the margin of what may be considered trash. Sorry about that.

Dang.... thought I could stay out of it, but I just can't. Here's MY new policy: "Do not remove ANYthing from the cache without trading". I don't care WHAT it is ... an old wrapper, chewed gum, whatever -- LEAVE it and tell ME about it -- I'll go get it. I simply cannot trust people to understand the intent of the game the way I see it and I deserve ownership of the game pieces I create and control. As you do yours. My former belief was that folks had the common sense to make the distinction and played the game in the spirit of respect. Apparently fulcrum's razor is in full effect and we can split, split, split hairs, distinctions and terms until the cows come home. So.... my view has become even MORE protective of my caches. This way, I'll avoid cache "editors" from roaming the woods to "clean" my caches in the name of "bettering" the game. I'm one of the people that answered your scenario above, but the discussion does not seem to be moving in an even slightly linear fashion. Leave my half-chewed army man alone Leave my filthy bouncy balls where they are (isn't that an AC/DC song?) Leave the gun wrappers and the soggy business card Clean-up anywhere you want AROUND the cache Trade for any of the above and more

Ooops, thanks. Wasn't aware this had been discussed, but will see what folks think by visiting that thread. I'll leave this thread open for a little bit so that others can comment or go to the other thread. I'll close this one tomorrow.

Hello all, Quick question. I have a CF Card GPS unit (T202) and am wondering what others experiences are with these. It seems I cannot get any fix without the optional attenna attached and it takes awhile to get a fix. Is it my unit in particular or is it CF card GPS units in general. Should I be out shopping? Thank you for any assistance you can provide.

Here's something I am planning on trying and would like some thoughts prior to actually implimenting it. I'm especially interested in the mechanics and advice from cache-approvers. The Idea: Traditional Caches with a Micro-cache near them. (cache, with baby-cache) The idea is that I would place a traditional cache and get it approved via the proper channels etc. Then, I would place it's "child" in the immediate vicinity (maybe hanging from a tree or near-by). The child would have a note "can you find my "parent" and the traditional would have a note "Micro child cache nearby - find it!" My questions are: 1) Woudl this be fun for you to find? (I'm thinking families could each search and see who finds what when) 2) How should I list these on the main site (Traditional with a note that it is "with child" is what I was thinking) 3) Should this be allowed/discouraged? Of course, this could get silly. I was actually thinking of a "Solar System" cache in which I place a traditional called "SUN" and then have 9 Micro "Planet" caches all with in a 50 meter radius of the SUN. I don't know -- what do folks think? Fun or Freaky?

Positives: -- creating adventures for people to enjoy! -- seeing places of great natural beauty -- using technology in a physical way Negatives: -- none -- none -- folks seeking to "control" the game beyond reason

I'm saying that you should allow that cache owner to control the cache. Don't assume your activities of "cleaning" are required or appreciated by everyone. The game has no cleaning function. Hide, Find, Sign, Trade It's really quite simple. *I* don't WANT you to make my cache *better* -- nope, nope, nope. I want you to enjoy finding and enjoying the hunt. Don't presume that our version of *better* is the same. I can't explain it any more simply: Stay AWAY from my caches except to FIND, SIGN, and TRADE. Anything else you want to do regarding quality, cleanliness, political message, moral message, happy-dance safety-bear-angel motivation is really not appreciated by myself as a cache hider. It's the same reason I don't list new routes on rock climbs -- I don't want some idiot with a drill setting-up bolts in the name of "improvement". If there is anything you need clarification on -- just ask. I'm done repeating myself and apologize to those that have has to listen. Dog-out