Lemon Fresh Dog

Well, that makes it easy. I DO condemn those that take and do not give to the community. I DO condemn those that justify their actions using legal arguments (not you, of course, others - I have no reason to doubt your sincerity in fair play) I DO condemn those that do not trade fair, or take coins, or destroy caches, or damage property There is little I can do about it -- so I trade up, and I leave coins in caches, and I give away coins to people that I meet and are new..... Why? It's just the way I play.

I don't recall anyone stating that there were rules above the law itself. I think people get annoyed when the law is used to justify actions that they feel are clearly poor behaviour. If someone walks in front of me on the street -- I'll hit the brakes. I don't use the LEGAL fact that I have the right of way as justifications for behaving poorly and running them over. This is a game with "rules" and "norms". Geocoins are not life and death. It's a game. It's more fun if people don't take them.

I think you're a fine human being. That's my default and I assume it to be true. You've never done anything bad to me (except you did call me a <removed by moderator> and then edited your post). You've put forward an argument that there is nothing LEGALLY wrong with taking coins from caches, as they are abandoned property. What do you think about people that actually do this? What do you think about people that take coins and Travel Bugs (those with specific missions: the coin you have has none) and keep them? I think you can keep the coin you found, because it seems to state that it's okay. Personally, I would contact the owner to confirm. So....here it is as plain as I can put it> Do you think that the person that took the coins from my cache (remember the original post?) was acting in the best interests of this game called geocaching? Yes or no. What do you think about their actions?

EDITED: Okay -- now that you've removed the nasty name you called me, I'll edit my post too. I think you are legally correct in keeping the coin. In fact, because the coin has no mission, I have no problem with you taking the coin (hence, my point starting with "In his defense...." What I am left wondering is the following: 1) why do you think legality of takiing coins is important? I don't "get" it. Does legality matter? If so, why? 2) why are you hanging onto the coin? If you like it and want to "collect" it, then I have no problem with that -- it has no mission -- so I say "go for it". Personally, I think it would be nice if you contacted the owner as a courtesy (maybe you have) and/or gave back to the game. You have taken something out of "play" -- what have you done to fill the void? It's a small thing in the scheme of things, but it addes up.

opps, missed your post while editing mine. You are correct, the coin has no mission. You are also correct, you are doing nothing legally wrong. It's odd how being so right doesn't mean you aren't also so wrong..... sigh. I don't think you're a shady character though. I just wonder what your point is.

He's had a Travel Bug for 2.5 months? Thank god it's not ILLEGAL! Whew.... glad we cleared that up. (Although, in his defense, the coin has no mission)

This could be set-up very simply. 1) folks decide what army they want to join (green or tan) 2) they release TB's (with a note and a naming convention "TAN TEAM: Joe Gun", etc. 3) each week, the number of Tans and Greens in each state/province are added-up. The side with the most army men in caches in each state/prov. wins that state/prov. as territory -- you could use a map and colour-code each state each week. You could then play all sorts of games! "Tan Team takes New York!" or "Green Team to Alaska!" The fun would also be -- which teams have the most states/prov?, which teams are taking over other countries? This might be the simple way to do it rather than try and manage too many specifics. The only problem I can see is if someone finds an opposite teams TB and hangs onto it. Of course, you could come up with a way of handling this as well.

A dog ate one of my caches..... true story. It was at an off-leash park and I recieved and e-mail from a non-cacher stating they had my logbook. Big teeth marks in it. So, apparently some dog decided to eat my cache! (I will never question students again) I think the photo idea is great!

OOOO! A big box 'o' Feeps just arrived. 30 little green fellows ready to be tagged and released! Now I just have to get to GPS Central and buy 30 or so TB tags.....and print cards....and get them laminated..... Sheesh.... I really do create a lot of work for myself with this hobby. FEEPS IN THE HOUSE!

Speaking of red herrings...... That was a fake post! haha! I once was a manager for a hotel. One of my Front Desk Agents had $3000 stolen from their float. They were very upset and we had to go report it to the police. On the way back from the Police station, I told them to act happy and relieved.... tell everyone that they Police said it would be no problem to find the person that stole the money and an arrest would be coming shortly (not true). Strangely, the money re-appeared. It didn't work with the coins, but was worth a shot.

Well.... this conversation sort of sprung-up due to my original post. In my original post -- I don't think I asked or questioned the legal issues of taking coins. In fact, I don't care what the legal issues are -- it simply is irrelivant. The only way that legality enters into the equation is if we seek to enter a conflict and have the law on our side. This is a MORAL issue. Travel Bugs and coins are part of a game with clearly defined objectives and norms. Taking them out of play is clearly WRONG. If someone wishes to state that there is nothing LEGALLY wrong with taking coins and TB's, then they are missing the point and/or trying to shield the issue (either to justify their own poor behaviour and/or to somehow come across as "smart:). They are "right", but they are absolutely WRONG. Such is the law. In many cases the law will give a person the "right" to perform some activity that is morally repugnant. Lawyers have a somewhat unfairly earned reputation based upon this -- n'est pas? Do not argue the legality -- it is a red-herring. Ask one question only: 1) Was taking the coins from my cache the right thing to do? That is the only answer that matters. DO NOT change the question to "Was taking the coins from my cache LEGAL?" That answer is completely not at issue here. When I placed a cache in the woods, I effectively littered. So I am on the wrong side of the "law" already. I'll rebuild this cache. Why? It's a FUN cache. I'll even protect the coins a little more from those that feel it is within their "right" to take them, There is no limit to the arguments people will push forward for behaving poorly -- we have an excellent example in this thread. The law is a shield to protect the weak -- here we see it as a shield to protect the greedy (and, I use this as a general statement -- I have no idea of the personal habits of those defending the legality of taking items -- I'm sure they are very nice people)

Ooooh! One of the few new coins I'll want to get! (of course, I miss the Easter Island head) Great coin.

How can you steal property that has been abandoned by the original owner? Legality is irrelivant. In fact, it's either a Red-Herring or a shield for poor behaviour. Bottom line: someone took the coins against the wishes of the cache owner (me) as well as against the sprit of the community. If they were of the opinion that there was no moral wrongfulness in their actions, then why not sign the log and/or post to the website -- because they know what they did was "wrong" The legal "defense" is simply a poor justification for us to stop saying coins were "stolen". Fine. They were "taken" by a selfish, pathetic person that has no intention of playing this "game" in a decent manner. Will I take them to "court" -- nope.

I lost about $150 in coins. I think that eBat prices would have had them at about $500 or so. (too bad they're scratched )

So you're saying that when I leave a geocache in the woods I renounce all claims to it and the first cacher who finds it now owns it and gets to take it with him???? Windrose Read the cache page. I pretty clearly stated that the coins were not intended for trade. To this end, like the cache, I intended to "return from time to time to maintain them" -- and, hence not renounce any claim. The law states that leaving any trash in the woods is littering. So I appeal to "geocacher" law. Which states to repect the rights of the cache owner.

I haven't come up with anything yet (work, travel, work, work...) I am just thinking of a laminated square that says: "Congratulations you HAVEN'T found a Jeep .... You've found a "FEEP". This fake Jeep looks just like the ones used in the annual Jeep contest for 2006. These "Feep"'s (Fake Jeeps) are intended to travel all over the world -- EXCEPT the lower 48 US states (they get "real" ones). Log it, move it, and you might win a prize! (nothing huge) Please keep this "Feep" moving from cache to cache. Do not keep it or just carry it from event to event. It's a "Feep" and needs to move! (if you want to buy one, contact "All Things Jeep" - that's where this one came from. I don't know how this would look, but the reverse side would have a little Jeep picture with the circle and slash (eg. no-smoking style).

haha! It's not going to happen. I'm sure Groundspeak is pretty busy without this on their plate. At first, I thought an icon of a Jeep with a red circle and slash would be cool, but we have to remember that there is a real contest going on here and we REALLY want to keep the good folks at the real Jeep place happy (after all, this hobby only has two corporate sponsors that I know of: Jeep and Trimble for Trash Day) Would it be cool? -- Yeah! Will it happen? -- I'm not holding my breath

Yipes! Do you still have unopened packages? I sent mine via ExpressPost a LONG time ago?

The "Feeps" have shipped! I have a bunch of the "Feeps" enroute to Canada and when they arrive I will get them ready for deployment in the first week of August. I'll contact folks for deployment -- (and only in areas that can't get the real ones ) In fact, finding a "Feep" will be much more exciting than finding a "Jeep". After all -- there are 5000 "Jeeps", but only 30 "Feeps"! -- of course, a "Jeep" gets you an icon. My "Feep"? Nada....except, of course that you get an entry into the contest for each time you move it from cache to cache (an NO, you cannot drop it and just pick it up again -- you have to LET IT GO!). -- which I hope happens. Hey? Do you think that Groundspeak will contact me and offer to create a custom icon for the "Feep"?

It's "in the cache". Good luck all.

Hello there, I never thought of using the older Jeep models -- mostly because I didn't have a source to buy them. I am planning on just using the new ones. This is going to be a lot of fun! I think I'll be able to get them far and wide (remember -- I only have 30 so far, so it's not a huge amount). I'll contact folks once they are ready to go (I plan sometime around the first week of August. I'll definately try to go for a wide geography. If I could, I would LOVE to have custom icon for the finders, but that can of worms is way too crazy. If it was even possible, the cost and numbers would be way out of line. For prizes? I have a few cool geocoins and some folks have kicked in some items (thanks). There are no official rules, there is no corporate sponsorship .... this is just a fun way to play a game within a game.

Whoa! I never expected Cav Scout to sell his collection! I guess there is a large number of folks just getting "tired" of the coins. The prices really are too high for them. A trackable coin should cost no more than $6 to produce -- tracking code included. So coins at any price above this are making a profit of some sort. If that profit is for a caching organization -- I am inclined to pay a premium knowing that I am supporting the hobby to some extent. However, I still like the coins! Not every design, not every one....but I do still like them and I still plan on making more of my own design for trading and caching. I would just never want to try and collect everything under the sun (which I really was trying to do up until October of 2005). In fact, does anyone even know how many different coins there are? (not including all the metal variations). I suspect it is what is causing some people to sell entire collections. Any collectible has a "set" mentallity. You have a set or you don't. If it's a set of Spider-man comics -- no problem (expensive yes, finite though). People that see that a set is not possible become tired of collecting. (I am not sure why, but it's true). So...where is the future? Like stamps, coins, comics, cards, and all the other collectibles -- it will either become a fad of the past with a few diehards, OR.... folks will start collecting sub-sets: - states - countries - cachers you've met F2F - cachers that you *know* (forums, locals) - coin club coins - topicals (themed coins such as those with satellites) Of course, most cool people will want coins in the shape of dogbones.... I still plan to collect and I have my own "themes" I like. What is currently difficult is the very limited availability of coins on release. For example, the Telling Time coin fits my themed collection very well -- but I had to pay for it at a higher price ($25). Now I have rambled on into the whole coin and collecting menatality and evolution....sheesh! My final answer - I think that folks are selling their collections because they are tired of missing coins they want and feel that the "missing" coins diminish their collection somehow. So it becomes less valuable to them. Combine this with the fact that the coins command a pretty penny and you have pretty strong pressure to liqidate them. Personally, I won't be selling my collection any time soon (I would in a heart-beat if my kids got sick (heaven forbid!)). Each of my coins represents a connection to a cacher, event, or is something I really enjoy (I also keep them in a couple big jars -- so I "rediscover them every so often). ...end rant.

I'm probably going to limit release to non-continental US at this point. Just because everyone in the lower 48 states can get the real Jeeps. I appreciate the offer though. With my measly 30 "Feeps" I can't compete with the 5000 real ones! Haha! It will be fun to watch them travel around. I hope that each of them gets logged 10-40 times.

Whoa! Offensive material -- it makes you wonder what it was! haha! I just ordered 30 of the little cars to start, but they are going fast! Here's part of the e-mail I recieved: "We have just got a influx of orders of these models today. Many orders. Many large quantities. In following the referrals to us, I see that it is the result of Jeep choosing this little model for their geocaching travel bug. Is that why you want them also. In any case, as a result we are soon to run out." They were on sale for $2, but are now back at $2.50 per Jeep. As soon as I get them I will "Feep" them and start the process of releasing them into the wild! I like the idea of a laminated tag, so will work on getting that created as well. No custom icon though

Let me be first to respond! My first trades occured when the local caching club made a new coin. I purchased a larger about of these and started trading. It was cool to get coins (and meet cachers) from around the world. When I first made my own coins, I traded folks for personal coins, and in some cases state or organizational coins. Then, as more coins were offered for sale - I would buy 5-50 of each coin for caching, trading and collecting. I also joined a subscription service and enjoyed this for about 6 or 7 months. Needless to say -- there are just too many coins coming out to keep up with this. It started costing a few hundered a month and I started getting less pleasure. So....I plan to keep my collection of items I traded for forever. To me, they represent the "community" of caching and the only value they have for me is that I enjoyed trading for them and having them. The ain't going anywhere. As for duplicates of coins I purchased: I cached a bunch (I estimate somewhere over 50 coins -- I have placed up to 4 coins in a cache at a time). So, recently I just sold about 25 extras via auction. Maybe this isn't a direct reponse -- it seems you were directing your query to those that sell completely, but this explains why I now collect, cache and cash-in some of my coins. In the future? I will get coins on a catch as catch can basis. Hopefully for and from cachers I meet (in person or in the forums) and buy the odd few (BC, Toronto, and the Telling Time coin to name a few) One of my favourite items is your shotglass. Why? I don't know. Maybe in some posting way back someone called me an idiot and you disagreed. Maybe you called me an idiot and it turned out I was. haha!