jeanne123

Handy, yes, but not the most important criteria on my list. I will pick the unit that I think will do best for me on a day to day basis. If that one also allows for foreign travel, that's great, but I can't see basing my decision on something that might never happen. YMMV. p.s. I think Topo8 does include at least parts of Canada.

Interesting. This sounds like ordinary learning curve to me. Which should put to rest the myth about the DeLorme units being harder to learn than the Garmins. Probably one is not harder than the other, they are just different.

Roddy, I will be eagerly watching for your comments. I am still trying to decide between the PN-40 and some flavor of Oregon, and in fact I have changed my mind twice in the last three days. But first things first. Enjoy your vacation and post comments when you are able.

What exactly is a map segment? Is it delimited by some real-world measure, or the amount of data within? Or something to do with the way the maps are formatted? Does the segment limitation apply to DeLorme units also, or only to the Garmins?

Thanks, guys, this is very helpful. My interest in routing was more for pre-trip planning than for actually getting me there. Once on the road, I have GPS in the car, so I don't really need it for driving directions. One more question - Are the 100k topo maps adequate for caching, or will I end up eventually wanting the 24k maps? I prefer caching in the woods, but am not likely to take really long hikes. Also keep in mind that I am currently using an old Magellan, so I have no topo at all.

I'm still looking at the differences between the PN-40 and some flavor of Oregon. For comparison purposes, let's say the 400t. 1) Maps change over time. Errors are corrected, roads and trails are added, bridges wash out, etc. When the maps need to be updated, do you need to buy new maps, or is there a provision for downloading updates? If so, do you have to pay for the updates? 2) Both units come with 100k topo maps. At that level of detail, is there any discernible difference between the two? Is one more useful than the other, or more accurate than the other? 3) For PC-based mapping and pre-trip planning, I believe the PN-40 comes with Topo 8 software. I understand the 400t maps cannot be viewed on the PC (without some kind of hack) and that there is no external mapping software included. For this, you need to buy mapsource to get a compatible mapping program. Is this correct? 4) Are both map sets routable? Or does the Oregon require City Nav for routing? I know the Oregon supports routing, but it is not clear if the included map supports it. (Yes, I know neither unit speaks) For now, let's limit this discussion to the 100k maps and software that are included with the units. I have lots of questions about add-on maps as well, but that's a whole 'nother topic. I will post those questions later.

I stopped in my local Best buy to see what they had - there was a bazillion car units, and one etrex. The guy looked up what else they carried, and found that all the handhelds were going to be available online only. The only thing they would be carrying in the stores would be car models. I did not ask about the 60csx specifically, but I would imagine that's what happened to it. Not really discontinued, just not available in stores any more. I did not find what I was looking for either, but that's another thread.

DeLorme does not seem to have a store locator on their website. Lots of places seem to have it by mail order, but I'd really like to get my hands on one to see how it feels, look at the screen, etc. I'd also like to get my hands on the Oregon, but it is not so hard to figure out who carries them. REI is not a good option for me. I live in Central Illinois, and the closest is > 150 miles away. I will be in Indianapolis tomorrow, so that opens up lots of options, but REI is not one of them. Any ideas?

These forums are an excellent source of information as long as you keep your salt shaker handy. You learn very quickly who needs a grain of salt, and who needs the whole shaker. And who needs to have a whole block of salt dropped on their head.

Flounders under tree cover?? I thought those two units had the same chipset. Any idea why one would perform better than the other if that is true? I figure even the worst high-sensitivity receiver will be light years ahead of my old Map330, which gets totally lost in tree cover or urban canyons. Are we talking about a distance of a few feet, or about totally losing satellites?

Interesting. I wonder if I will change my approach after going paperless as well. Although what you describe is a lot like what I do now. I use google maps to create a map with several waypoints for an area. If it is going to be a long outing, or if there is some distance between areas I plan to hit, I might have two or three of these maps. I don't necessarily create a route for the individual points within a map, but I usually know where I want to park, and what order I want to approach them. The map goes on top of my stack of printouts. And of course I always have more printouts than I can do, "just in case" I have more time than expected. Never happens, but so far that hasn't stopped me from printing more than I need. I don't really need a master route - just some way of knowing which cachesI plan to do, and in what approximate order. I suppose if I just print the map, I am still way ahead of the stacks of paper I use now. If you zoom out, do you see other caches in the area, or just the one you are currently aiming for? My dinosaur shows everything, so I'm guessing the others do also, but I would hate to drop down a few hundred bucks on a bad assumption.

Mike&Kate, thanks for the suggestion, but I probably should have mentioned that the unit will be used primarily for geocaching, as I have adequate solutions for driving directions. But I do appreciate the thought. Starbrand, I will be watching for more info on the Endura. If it looks promising, I will give it more thought. Maingray, thanks for your explanation. It really helps. Uploading field notes into a queue that you can work from for logging sounds perfect. Even with a touch screen, I don't think I would have the patience to enter a complete log in the field. Sounds like I would basically do the same as I would with the paper - jot down a few notes or key words, and put them in a stack to log later. You did not mention which unit you use?? Does paperless work pretty much the same way on all units, or are there differences from one brand to another? If that is consistent across brands, then it sounds like the touch screens have the advantage in this category because of easier entry of notes on the unit. Any rebuttal from the DeLorme camp? What about trip planning? any comments on the strengths and weaknesses of the various units for planning your outings? Or for making changes on the fly to a pre-planned route?

Looks like the forum ate my original post. Here it is again: I am currently using dinosaur receiver, so printouts are a fact of life for me at this time. Now I am ready to upgrade, so I am doing my homework. I have it narrowed down to the usual suspects - DeLorme PN-40, some flavor of Oregon, or maybe the new Dakota. I also have not ruled out the workhorse favorite, the 60csx, though I would prefer better support for going paperless. Which brings me to my question. Although there is a lot of discussion about what is good for paperless caching, it is clear that this term means different things to different people. My questions will surely show my ignorance of paperless caching - they are based on how I think it might work, and not any knowlege of how it actually does work. I am hoping your responses will give me a better understanding of how it works with your unit. Here are the three capabilities I think I would need to go paperless: Trip planning: I realize you can load lots of caches with pocket queries, and just turn on the receiver and see what's nearby. I'm sure I will want to do that from time to time, but I usually like to plan my outings a little better than that. I am assuming trip planning would happen on the PC, and then the proposed routes would be sent to the GPS. Can you upload multiple routes or alternative paths? How hard is it to switch from one to another? Or to alter the path on the fly when you are in the field without the computer? What does the route look like when your search will involve bushwhacking? Field notes: I have no expectation that I would be able to create a complete log, suitable to post directly. I think I would need a real keyboard for that. But I would want the ability to jot down some notes to refresh my memory. With minimal available buttons, it seems that this would be rather cumbersome. Do the touch screen models have an actual keyboard or other helpers that make it easier then arrowing back and forth from letter to letter? Having the ability to do field notes may not be important, if it is so painful that it is not worth it. Logging results: I use the annotated printouts to keep track of what I have logged online, and what I have not. Is there an easy way to distinguish which ones I have logged, so if I get interrupted in the middle of logging, I will know where to start again? Just the presence of field notes might not be enough, as it may be part of a multi-stage or puzzle. Is there a way to distinguish those as well? Besides these key points, are there other things about paperless caching that I should know, or that will help me with my decision? There is no need here to elaborate about satellite lock, compass calibration, customer support, screen brightness, chipsets, upgrades, maps (or lack thereof), driving navigation, or battery life. I will weigh those things in my decision as well, but there is a lot of available information on those subjects. I need more information about the actual mechanics of paperless caching, so that I can evaluate that capability. Also note that for me, price is not as important as "bang for the buck". I don't mind paying top dollar for something if the top-end features are important to me, but I hate to pay for bells and whistles that I don't need and will never use. TIA for all helpful suggestions and comments.

Isn't this horse dead yet?

LASF?

Try zooming the map a little closer - if there are a lot of caches in the area, it might just be trying to load them all. This can take a while, especially if you are on an older computer. (Just guessing that if you have older browser, you may have older computer also.)

Love this description! I think it says it all!

Something to think about here... Unless very carefully designed, a rating system is going to be heavily skewed toward the urban type micros and nanos, simply because there are so many more of them. Those who think it will cause the "lame" hides to go away and the great ones to float to the top, may find that a ratings system will actually have the opposite effect. This would be particularly true if the ratings are metered based on how many finds you have. The great caches, that require some time to figure out, or multiple stops, or a hike in the woods, will fall to the bottom, because they get fewer votes. The numbers hounds will win in the ratings. Be careful what you ask for - you might get it.

Nothing exciting here - my name is Jeanne. The 123 is kind of meaningless, but I had to tack on something to make it unique.

I still won't pick it up. Well, maybe if it is already within easy reach, but probably not. It's not the ones I can see that concern me. If it's a needle-dumping location, there are others around. It's the ones I don't see that would concern me - the one I might step on on my way, or the one that is laying there pointy end up to scratch my hand while reaching for the one I do see. I would put something simple and non-accusatory in the DNF log - "There is a lot of trash here, including used hypodermic needles. I chose not to search in this area." I might also post a SBA if it is clear that the area has been used for a dump for a long time. And maybe call the authorities, although if it is that bad, they are probably already aware of it. These days most places are lacking in time and budget, and nasty jobs like this fall fairly low on the priority list.

Here's my two cents worth - I think it is disrespectful to ban all manner of enjoyment from the vicinity of a cemetery. Where is it written that once you are dead, there can be nothing but quiet and solitude around you? I wouldn't want my bones anywhere near a place like that. I suspect the people crying about disrespect are more likely just afraid to admit that the place creeps them out. What better way to honor those long gone than to bring visitors in to pause and reflect at their tombstones? Traditionally on Decoration Day (now Memorial Day), people would go to the cemetery and decorate the graves of their loved ones. It was often an all-day event - people brought picnic lunches, and there was fun and games for all, especially the kiddies. No one thought that was disrespectful. If anything, it was disrespectful not to participate. The spirits in those long-abandoned cemeteries probably miss the annual celebrations. If cemeteries creep you out, don't go there. The rest of us will honor the dead by being there.

I saw that too. If you enter some text in that big blank box, will it show up on your profile?

I'm with you, seeetpea. As forums go, this is one of the most helpful I have seen, particularly in the Getting Started section. People usually save their snarkiness for the other areas, and bend over backwards to give the same answers over and over for all the newbies. Now if the OP wants to be a little more specific about what they need, perhaps he can get a serious answer.

Done. and bump.

Ok, I'll bite - what is the significance of that particular symbol?