nobby.nobbs
-
Posts
2218 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Posts posted by nobby.nobbs
-
-
Thank you miss jenn it is good to see that Groundspeak have been able to adjust the guidelines so that commen sense can prevail. Thanks for all the hard work
-
I know someone nearby, I'll email him to ask for any good ones
-
The problem subject is the negotiation and allowing of the regional specific guidelines that have existed for the last 5 plus years.
We are calling for Groundspeak to reverse a mistake made a couple of weeks ago that removed these.
Once that has been agreed then hopefully they will see the sense of just restoring the regional guidelines that have been operating and formalise it by putting them down in writing so that this does not happen again in a couple more years.
-
uktim I can see what you are saying.
There are many side issues being discussed on this thread but the basic one is that the UK should have an amended set of guidelines to work for the UK and that should be enforced by UK reviewers who understand the subtle differences.
I'm sorry that you feel I am speaking out of turn by saying that I am attempting to represent the UK cachers but that is a seperate issue that should be discussed elsewhere, please feel free to PM me or begin a thread either on these or the GAGB forums. This puddle is already muddy enough without another side issue being discussed.
-
I'd have to say no. It would be a shame if that happened or if we had a UK based site, we really would then be guilty of the accusation that is being made in thinking locally.
The advantages of one site are very high and I am still optimistic that progress is there to be made.
-
I think this has already been clarified but just in case.
Any future reviewers for the UK can access the agreements details on the GAGB website just like any other cacher just by logging on. They will not be able to get the personal details of the negotiator or the landowner and there isn't a reason I can think of that would mean they would need to.
We have always worked with the reviewers of the UK to assist in the reviewing process where we can.
It would be our pleasure if representatives from Groundspeak became members of the GAGB site.
And I would again like to offer to record the specifically negotiated guidelines for the UK on the GAGB site so that UK cachers can easily see them.
I would agree that this thread is going around in circles and again I would like to remind everyone that the fundamental request is that we are allowed to think locally about local problems and restrictions. I have said several times that there are plenty of reasons that one size will not fit all guidelines are not a good way forward.
I know the objections but they are not valid due to the no precedence rule. The objections would lose even more credibility if Groundspeak would only clearly agree to the amended guidelines and state so.
The world may well be a small place these days but it is still very diverse ( which means different).
I am trying to help things move on and settle down to aid the new reviewers as otherwise there is going to be this confusion and resentment left to fester. Do you really want a situation where every cache placed near a railway line is referred to Groundspeak for approval? Or are the reviewers allowed that local amendment but no other? And if that one is ok then why not others? I am not calling for a free for all just a reasoned discussion between informed people.
The charity issue is never going to be resolved so can I ask that the matter is dropped and I presume that we will not be seeing any similar adverts appearing.
In future post an event and then list any details on the GAGB site where it will cause no offence.
I'm sure you will be able to dissect bits of this Greg but please try and see the whole picture and realise that I am not trying to be a divisive force or a heretic. The GAGB are not rivals we are not trying to do anything other than assist in the smooth operations of Groundspeak within the UK. Working together locally we can strengthen the hobby for everyone in a global perspective.
I hope that this helps matters and that we can start to move forward to a sensible compromise.
-
Thank you for the kind offer to copy in the information from the GAGB site. This is thankfully unnecessary as, like any responsible website, we do regular back ups.
The fact that you recognize the validity of the GAGB and our agreements just adds weight to my earlier comments.
As the cachers of each country become unified and self reliant all they would need to do is set up a site on the basis of the GAGB upon which they could list all the locally organised agreements and likewise list all the amendments to the guidelines that apply to that country. As such when we get the site back up shortly I will offer a service to Groundspeak to carry a back up of the guidelines that have worked so well for the UK for the last 5 years.
Then we can put all this behind us and go on enjoying this great hobby.
I believe that the ex reviewers have done their best to maintain the confidentiality they were under whilst still reviewers, but if there are now questions and suggestions about what these discussions did or did not include coming from current moderators should they feel free to elaborate on the content and duration of those discussions?
-
Sorry that an announcement has not been made.
Things are and have been progressing to rescue the situation.
I can already hear some of the things people will be saying but we obviously opened a door while changing the way the membership is done as the site had been attack free for a long period of time thanks to the hard work by Bill-d.
Normal service will be restored very soon and I'm sorry for the inconvenience.
-
I would also like to add the voice of the GAGB in saying that anyone sending hate mail to GS should send an immediate apology.
Feelings may well be running high but that does not excuse these actions.
I have expressed my thanks to all the time that Deci is putting in trying to resolve this matter and offered my help, as I am sure many others would do, to reduce the burden by assisting in any discussions so that the people who need to understand our position.
I think that you are being niave to think that one set of rules/ guidelines is going to fit all. To pluck one quick example. Is it not against the guidelines to place a cache within a certain distance of a railway line? This rule has been largely bypassed in the UK as it does not apply. This was because our reviewing team knew that the same legalities and practical issues did not apply.
What I suggested earlier was not a free for all. I suggested that a basic set of guidelines were set out. Then as a country became more self reliant in reviewers they could see where those guidelines clashed with their situation and state clearly ( after discussion) where they would be implementing them differently. Groundspeak has always had the No Precedence rule, why could this not apply?
As has been suggested a one size fits all policy is in danger of being one size fits the USA because that's what you know best. It would be a very easy mistake to make.
Would it not be a good idea for at least some of the discussions to appear on these forums to gauge response to your ideas? Not all of them as this would be impractical.
I would like to thank all of the responders to this thread who have supported our attempts to amend a mistake that has been made.
-
.
If we allow a few "empire builders" to set up shop off the back of this isuue, we'll wind up with a collection of puffed-up, self-appointed commitee men, asserting their will over the rest of us, patting themselves on the back for it and telling us what a great job they're doing on our behalf.
Believe me we really don't want those with the loudest voices appointing themselves and making up their own "rules". They'll be no better than Groundspeak, some will like their rules but a great many won't.
I've seen to many "associations" like this spring up and drive a wedge through sports, hobbies and even industries with their pompous self-glorifying drivel. They usually charge grass roots participants a sub for their "services" in alleviating non-existant issues and threats and procalim that it is our "duty" to pay up
Geocaching works, it's fun and it's growing day by day, lets get on with it instead of posturing over petty non-issues.
Drat you've seen through my cunning plan of world domination!!
The GAGB committee are voted in each year by it's members. Please join and then you can decide who is the voice for the UK. We've not just sprung up and we have no other agenda in this matter other than what we have always said we will do. That is to stand up for UK cachers and try to get what our members want.
We sat back and didn't start anything at first then people said "what's the point of you if you don't stand up for us in this situation" So I began the other thread. Trust me I should be doing other things right now but I'm doing this to try and benefit us all.
I should be sainted really shouldn't I?
-
I wouldn't say that it's "UK-specific leeway" that we're asking for. That's makes it sound - and indeed has been taken to mean, as mtn-man says above - that the UK is asking for special treatment: some exemption from the rules. This just isn't true at all. What we're asking for, surely, is that all reviewers in all countries be allowed to exercise their judgement in applying the guidelines?
I once queried a particular cache where I thought a guideline was not being appropriately applied. The reply I got from Groundspeak was "This is the reason that Groundspeak has guidelines and not rules. The reviewers have latitude to allow caches that are different at times." Exactly so, and long may it continue.
Really you would think that we would be held up as an example to the rest of the world as to how well it is possible to run the reviewing and moderation with the lightest of touches.
We should be explaining how to do it and bringing theirs up to our standard, but unfortunately the opposite seems true.
Thank you Mtn-man for all your replies, maybe with the exception of where your keyboard seems to have been stuck into repeat ohmy......didn't really add to your explanation.
I would ask a question though. You say missjenn is discussing this. With who? surely it might be beneficial if someone from the UK was involved? I am sure that the other members of the GAGB would be more than willing in the circumstances to get involved.
You are right that this is global not local but if the wheel falls off the car you don't take out the engine to fix it.
-
We could argue the sematics of what is , or is not a commercial cache for years and still never come to a definitive answer.
The real problem here is that one size does not fit all when it comes to rules and guidelines.
Would it not strengthen the whole community if they knew that it was possible to have a flexible set of guidelines controlled by individuals with local knowledge.
Groundspeak make great emphasis on the fact that no precedence should be inferred by a cache's publication. Surely it is possible to reiterate that fact and then add that this applies without exception when the cache has been published in a different country that has negotiated local amendments.
This sounds like we are asking for a huge compromise from Groundspeak but, in fact, all we are asking for is for the system that has operated in the UK for the last 5 years to be reinstated.
Our reviewers were happy and so were we. Is that too much to ask?
-
The coffee shop argument doesn't really apply to this.
Starbucks et al are just like mcdonalds et al. they have all their supplies shipped in from a central point and so you are fairly assured of the exact same quality whenever you visit.
Whereas a public house, even when part of a chain is very different.
Thank you for passing this to miss jenn, hopefully we can move further towards some discussion on this subject.
-
The message was sent to his personal contact and I only sent a copy via yourself mtn-man as you had shown an interest. It is not an attempt to create trouble it is purely trying to show our concerns and see if some compromise could be achieved. Jeremy jointly owns this site so he is the person who needs to know what is going on and reply.
And in case there is any confusion I had said that it was a personal message because at that stage I had not had the chance to discuss the matter with the full GAGB committee. I believe that I can now safely say that the message should be considered an official request from the Committee and as such from every member of the GAGB.
-
Below is the copy of a message I have sent to Jeremy and via mtn-man to try to open some level of negotiations to try and resolve the present problems.
This was only posted on monday so it is not a great surprise that I have yet to get a reply but I hope it clarifies that things are being attempted. I would stress that I am not posting this now to brgin any bad feeling towards the Groundspeak authorities, quite the opposite, I hope that this will show people that we are attempting to sort the problem out before it gets out of control.
"Hi, I do not doubt that you have received more than a few messages from cachers from the United Kingdom in light of the recent events.
At the outset I would stress that while I am a member of the Geocaching Association of Great Britain this post is entirely off my own back.
As I understand the current situation a decision has been made by yourself and others that the United Kingdom has been less strict with it's reviewing and forum moderation than you would normally expect on one of the many American forums. As such they were told to become much more stringent and follow the guidelines with less lee way. They have then resigned due to that and other related actions .
I do understand your thoughts that it is better for everyone to be operating under the exact same rules but I don't think that it really needs to happen. Has anyone actually complained that we are given more leniency or are allowed more freedom? Is there any commercial reason that you feel all the countries need to conform? (totally understandable if so)
The thing is that both Australia and the Netherlands, to the best of my knowledge, have a certain level of freedom to act within their own set of guidelines while still remaining under the umbrella of Groundspeak. Could you please explain why this could not be done for us?
The question over recommending public houses I believe has been put to you but I will reitterate. The Public house holds a unique place for the british people as I hope you found out on your recent trip to an event that under the present rules would not be allowed unless I an incorrect?
They are places where families go before and after walks/ caches etc. and form an integral part of the British culture. I do not think the same applies to similar establishments in the USA. But like any establishment some are more friendly towards families and weary travellers than others. I am aware that a large number of cachers welcome information as to whether a local public house falls into the nice category or not when travelling a long distance to go caching. So while in the strictest sense that does fall foul of the commercial guideline it is welcomed to the UK cachers.
The counter argument is that once one is allowed there will be a flood of "go to this shop or this resturant" but that is where flexibility comes into play. I can say with certainty that when a UK reviewer makes a ruling it has been accepted by the UK cacher population as they have shown consistancy and fairness in their application of the guidelines.
The sum of this argument is that some negotiation should be allowed to solve this current discord. It is my belief that if the UK reviewers and moderators were allowed to continue with their fair and firm interpretation of the guidelines with the UK holding a slightly detached position. We have seperate laws along an often common theme. We have a similar culture. But we do not always totally agree with how we each do things, surely some level of uniqueness and originality should be welcomed not suppressed?
At the moment there is a great deal of resentment being directly towards GC.com by a normally calm happy group of people. You have to remember that before all this occured it was very rare that there was anything on our forums that required any moderation. They are a very calm and relaxed affair usually.
I would greatly appreciate it if you could consider my points and see if you could show the British community that you are able to reconsider a mistake and rectify it before lasting damage is done to the trust that has built up over the relatively few years that our hobby has existed. I do not think that the hobby would suffer in fact diversity would strengthen it. Your UK customer base needs some reassurance and flexibility not a strict rule.
Thank you for your time
-
Isn't that one of the tasks GAGB appointed itself to ???
There doesn't seem to have been much input from GAGB on this forum other than offering their own forum as an alternative........ what is the official line from the committee on recent events?
For some time, it has been becoming more and more apparent that Geocaching in the United Kingdom needs to be represented by a body recognised in the UK by the cachers and acting on behalf of the cachers.acting as intermediaries, and being the first point of call for all interested parties in Great BritainWe did not self appoint ourselves as we are voted in each year and anyone can stand against each member of the committee.
There are ongoing discussions on the forums as to how to proceed and ideas on what we can do. We do not have an official position because we are the voice of the UK cachers and as such the UK cachers have yet to decide on how we should proceed. Our own personal comments on this or any other forum are just that PERSONAL thoughts.
but let's not expand this problem. If the GAGB site did not exist then we'd have nowhere to discuss these matters other than here and some people would find that very difficult.
-
that's me told !
I still believe that it will be possible to end this on a positive note if we all stop and decide what we'd really like.
then as a unified body approach Groundspeak and request some negotiations.
the idea of just walking away from a perfectly good website that we have some issues with without trying is shortsighted.
I don't think any of us disagree with a desire to return to the more relaxed and flexible moderation and reviewing that we did have.
so it's just a matter of who is best placed to speak.
they have laws and rules in america that we don't have here why can't we have different from them without anyone being threatened ?
-
I would suggest that , assuming he agrees, we use Deceangi as the main representative to voice the opinion of the UK cachers.
I would suggest not. Deceangi, like all the volunteer reviewers, is not a representative of the cachers in his review area. He "works" for Groundspeak. And, as DaveD and Peter will no doubt testify, the views of the reviewers are no more important to Groundspeak than those of any other cacher.
Works would imply a salary.
I suggested him as he is well known to all UK cachers and already has a relationship to the powers that be.
Who else would you suggest? bearing in mind that not all UK cachers visit these forums so anyone else voted in or otherwise could not say that they hold any authority?
We need to stand behind one representative person or team to show a professional authoritive front. Only then will we cease to be a group of disgruntled customers and become a large solid consumer group with any power.
-
As a relative caching newcomer, the question I still want to know is, who speaks on behalf of the UK?
GAGB? Deceangi? Whoever comes forward?
Or is this an opportunity for the UK to also re-look at the way its organised?
Its all very well airing views in the forum but is anyone from the UK going to act on them in a coordinated way?
We can air our opinions either on these forums or on the GAGB forums, please do join them, there is no hidden agenda or pledge or any ulterior motive in the constitution, or if there is then they forgot to tell me about it when i signed onto the committee!
I would suggest that , assuming he agrees, we use Deceangi as the main representative to voice the opinion of the UK cachers. If not then the committee can do so.
As an aside, it will be very interesting to see if there is a new jeep TB this year. Now that we are going to be a totally non commercial, non promoting organisation that only allows things that every cacher can do.
-
I've got a First to Solve certificate on my wall right now.
Several years ago a new cache appeared and I managed to solve it but didn't have the chance to get to it, the owner took pity on my and knocked one up and put it in the post
-
Unfortunately at the end of the day this is groundspeaks toy and they can do with it what they want to. I pay my money each year for the other features regarding caches and downloading etc. and I will probably carry on doing so for the same reason.
If we don't like their approach to how they want this forum moderated then we do have several options open to us all. There are the regional forums and the GAGB forums as well as geochat. All these are run by and moderated by UK cachers.
Not much point getting annoyed, this has happened and there's nothing we can do or say to change that.
It is just very sad that it has had repercussions that we will all feel.
-
Cheers, I hope to buy the pair of you a drink when I next see you at a bash.
-
Well I met her through caching so if she does think I'm sad then it's not because of the caching!!
-
I'm slightly concerned as I'm not sure what's a fair swap for a dead body!
What we ( the GAGB) are attempting to achieve
in United Kingdom and Ireland
Posted
Thank you to MTN Man and Miss jenn ( and of course all those behind the scenes) who have had to withstand a large amount of flak here.
It is good to see that adaptation is possible and that voices are listened to.
It is great news I can only add my little voice in saying that it would be great if two blokes were able to rethink a decision but it would be totally understandable if they felt that it was time for a rest, they are getting on a bit after all!!!
and the weather is wonderful so get out there caching.