DaveA

Honestly, I wouldn't bother. There are 2 types of hunters in the world. Those who don't shoot at a target unless they can clearly see it and take proper aim and the idiots who shoot at any noise they hear in the brush. The first group, fortunately, represent 99.9% of all hunters. The latter group are so stupid they would shoot you even if you were in the middle of a clearing wearing strobe lights and then tell the police they thought you were a rabbit. If you are concerned about accidently getting shot then I would stay well away from hunting lands during hunting seasons. Otherwise I would just go about my business as usual. At this time of year in the area I live it it is pretty much expected to hear gunfire while caching. Just the way it is and I don't recall ever hearing about a cacher getting shot. I am sure it has or will eventually happen, but the odds are probably less than getting hit by lightening (guessing) so I wouldn't bother buying orange stuff that you wouldn't wear otherwise. Of course if you want to guarantee you don't get shot you could simply carry a boom box with you and blast 'turdy point buck' as you cache. That will have hunters on the ground rolling around laughing too hard to take aim at you.

Not sure I get the math here. Lets say someone puts out 10 geocoins in a year at $8 each; that's $80. And lets say they find 250 caches that same year (I know ... that's a lot for some people, but just a good month for others). If they take the $80 that they spent on geocoins and use it to put swag in the caches instead, that works out to $.32 per cache. Can't even buy that swag at the dollar store. Agreed, it was a semi lame point I made. Just taking the opportunity to whine a little bit. OTOH, if a person spends $80/year on coins/TBs and they visit 80 caches per year (seems a more 'typical' number than 250, although certainly there are those who find many more than that) then that is $1 per trade item. If they find 40/yr it is $2 etc. Besides, there is absolutely nothing stopping those who like trackables and collectables from putting numbers on their swag and a note asking the swag to be logged at any of the sites that offer tracking/logging services. I am certainly not saying anyone *must* do this as this is definitely a 'to each their own' activity, I am just tossing it out there for thought. For those who find hundreds of caches per year I certainly understand not wanting to spend much money on trade items, but for those who find say 100 or less per year and presently put in stuff that pretty much everyone would agree is either junk or an item only a kid would like (and only for the first 10 minutes at that) I say "c'mon, fellow cacher, consider stepping it up a small notch". An example of a great swag item that is very inexpensive would be this: cheap swag The link is time sensitive so depending on when you view it the item may no longer be offered. Nevertheless this is a site where you can get good quality keychain flashlights for 49 cents each and that price includes shipping. Granted it takes about a month to get the items since they are shipped from China, but the point is it doesn't take much money to put some decent swag into a cache, it just takes a little bit of bargain hunting. Something someone will actually use and each time they use it they will remember the cache experience.

Great idea! While I have not used these tags for a geocache, I purchased these years ago for use in my gardens. I can attest that they will last for years upon years. I would say most of the multi caches I have done that have relied upon waypoint markers need replacement within a year or so. I have seen laminated paper inside a plastic tube where the tube gets taken away by a critter or weather, cards written on with 'permanent' markers and laminated and they fade from exposure to sunlight etc. Definitely use a corrosion proof material and engrave it and attach it to something unmovable if you don't want to be replacing the waypoint markers all the time.

I think the idea is mega cool, but I fear some jerk will happen upon it and add it to his/her shiny object drawer instead of doing the honorable thing. Hopefully the placer has prepared his/herself for the possibilty the ashes may be picked up by a geo jerk.

Personally I have no interest in anything you mentioned, BUT I think every item you listed is several cuts above the 'usual trash' left in caches. I am 100% certain that if you left such items you would make some other fellow cacher very pleased with their find. Even though I wouldn't trade for the items you mentioned, if the cache had such items in it I would say to myself "hmmm, this cache seems to have some decent swag in it, the local cachers must be some decent, giving folks". I strongly encourage you to pursue your ideas.

First, I don't think this belongs in the units and software forum at all, it should remain where it started, in the general discussion forum. Second, I don't understand your point about you get what you get for free. The caching along a route feature is only for premium members, not non paying members. Google Earth is free, but it is used for caching along a route on this site (for only those who pay) and it's ability to setup the route one wants is very primative. The cynical fart in me thinks that pay features shouldn't rely upon the freeware offerings of others. If the cache along a route feature is going to be dependant upon a third party freeware app, then make the feature free here too. If the feature is going to use proprietary methods to make it really slick and flexible, then sure, charge for it. Onto the OP's dilemma. I have found a way to get the route you want with google earth, but it is far from elegant. You need to use the placemarks in google earth. They are the icon of a thumb tack. Forget the instructions Groundspeak offers about using the directions button. Zoom in so you can see the road you wish to start on and then click the placemark icon and place it at the start location. Next, set another placemark somewhere along the route. Now you can click on the first placemark and select "From here" and then click on the second placemark and select "to here". This fills the the from and to fields in the upper left corner and now you can make a route from 1 to 2. If you are not getting the route you wish the solution (inelligant as it is) is to set more placemarks so you end up with the desired directions in between placemarks. This means when you upload the route you have to upload it in multiple pieces, but at least you get a listing of the caches along your route. Hopefully version 2 of the cache along a route offers more flexibility than having to use google earth or the feature becomes just as free as google earth is.

I like to think that sometimes my commentary has an edge. I really don't mean to be rude. I find it very tiring when people complain. What's worse is that this is another of the topics that have been discussed into the ground in multiple posts. There are probably five general themes here that are chewed on ad nauseam. That's why I have an edge. Grow up people! I would suggest you have forum burn out. Anytime a person more or less says 'I am tired of seeing multiple threads on the same old topic.' it is a sure sign that person is spending more time at the forum than is healthy. See, *you* are whining about what *you* don't like and then complaining about someone else expressing their dislike of something that you have read before. Anyway, please take the above in a friendly manner. I have certainly experienced forum burnout before and the best cure is to find a new forum to haunt for awhile and come back after a sabbatical. ______ segue _________ I also like to find nice swag, but I almost never do. By nice swag I am not talking about a coupon for a free Mercedes at the nearby dealership, just something that isn't rubber balls, army men, MC toys and the like. My 7 year old doesn't even like finding such things. I am getting used to reading the logs for nearby caches and seeing adult cachers who don't even have kids leave such items. Not a big deal, I certainly can't change that. My approach is to adopt the philosophy that it is better to give than receive. So, I leave decent swag and then put the cache on my watchlist to see if someone logs taking it. (the taker logs the take 25% of the time ). Again, nothing I can do about it, so I live with it. I do find it fun though to read the log for that 25% who do log that they took the item. The thing that gives me a slight pause is seeing cachers who put out TBs at a minimum cost of $4 each and geocoins at $8-16 each, but they don't leave any decent swag. Certainly it isn't an issue of affordability for them. To each their own certainly though. If *all* cachers gave up TBs and geocoins and invested the same annual amount into geo swag these topics would never come up. Never happen though, so move along, nothing to see here.

You can do it if you want, but I wouldn't ever leave anything nice in one of your caches if you took something I left. I recently left an unactivated TB tag in a cache and the owner went and got it within hours. Fine, owner's prerogative, but I intended it for a future finder. Won't be leaving anything nice in the owner's caches anymore.

My personal opinion is that trackable items simply cost too much. TB tags are what? $4 each? Coins are 2-3x that. I like the wooden nickel idea. About 50 cents to a dollar each and can be customized. If the trackable item was a low value item they probably wouldn't be as attractive to steal and it wouldn't be as much a disappointment to the owner when they went missing. DaveA, Where do you get those? Are they trackable? Wooden nickels? Just google on wooden nickel for several sites. I can't recomend one over another as I haven't used any of them. They *can* be trackable (anything can be), but you would need to find a site that will host the tracking for them (there are several, check out the coins forum for places that do this). If you want it trackable on GC.com I am not sure how to do that. I would imagine it would end up costing as much or more than a TB.

Boy, one of the things I would be afraid of if I ticked someone off by deleting their logs (justified or not) was that their next course of action would be to delete my cache. I mean, the person making the log obviously knows where it is so even if this was some 50 mile multi, they can just go right to it and do with it as they wish. Seems like the kind of angry thing an angry person might do.

I recall a thread from at least a year ago I believe, where there was some discussion concerning the involvement of cache sites other than geocaching.com. IIRC, you more or less didn't want to include those other sites for whatever reason. If you are having trouble getting participation I am curious if you are now accepting articles with a slant different than the geocaching.com flavor or is the desire to keep it geocaching.com centric?

Sorry, but you seem like a royal <removed by moderator> to me for posting the gc.com username of this person. You are essentially using gc.com to promote your for profit coin which I personally find sleazy enough, but to call out someone who decided against paying you for your coin publically seems really low class. I now realize why I don't bother with geocoins.

Nope, you just got lucky so far. You can have the world's greatest GPSr, but if the hider had a lesser model then their coords will be off. Even when I am getting a WAAS signal with my GPSr (Magellan Color) I frequently find the cache location to be off by 40 or so feet. I think you will find most cachers consider being 40ft off entirely within the normal range. Now, unfortunately, I have to inform you of Murphy's Law. Because you posted what you did you will never again find a cache within 20 feet of what your GPSr shows as ground zero. Don't hate the messenger, you cursed yourself

See my previous post about how some 3rd party apps only show the most recent logs. Just as you avoided some caches because the most recent logs showed DNFs, maybe the cache owner didn't want too many of the most recent logs showing the same. You posted a DNF twice which might be an issue. There is no rule against doing so and I am certainly not saying you are wrong for doing so, but consider how the cache owner might take that if s/he knows it is there. If 4 people head out independently of one another and all 4 post DNFs I would avoid the cache myself figuring it probably is AWOL, but if 2 people each post 2 DNFs I would just assume those 2 people couldn't find it, not that it was necessarily missing. Again, just email the owner and politely ask what is up. Chances are whether you agree with the owner's rationale or not, there is nothing evil in his/her intentions.

Kind of. Certainly you are to sign the log book as well as log your find online at the cache listing page. There is no obligation to take/trade an item from the cache though. Many caches have nothing to trade (most micros fit this description). Even if you find a cache filled with trade items, you do not have to trade. Logging TNLNSL is fine. TNLNSL=took nothing, left nothing, signed log. However, if you do take something then you are morally obligated to leave something. The something you leave should have an equal or greater dollar value than the item you took. If you take a misc trinket like a McToy you can leave a golf ball you found on the way in place. If you take a dollar store item, leave at least an item worth a dollar. If you take a signature item, try to be familiar with the cost of that item. Geocoins, for example, cost $8-$12 each. Many are meant to be taken and placed in another cache (if you will just move it along you don't have to trade anything for it), some are meant to be taken and kept. Travel bugs cost $4 for the tag and whatever for the item they are attached to. These are not to be taken for keeps, but moved along so no trade is required although it is good practice to leave a TB in it's place if you can. If you can't no worries. So, if there is something you want in a cache, take it, but leave something of equal or greater value in it's place. Most folks simply do not abide by this guideline sadly. Hopefully you will be one of the minority that do.

I am not a lawyer, but I am going to play one on the geocaching.com forums The language of the rule seems highly subject to interpretation. (told ya I was going to play lawyer). Defacing public property seems plain enough, but defacing private property is what seems subject to interpretation. Please see my previous post to understand I am opposed to painting rocks. Clearly defacing someone else's private property is forbidden by the quoted rule, but is defacing one's own private property prohibited? I would think not since painting one's own ammo can and attaching a geocaching.com sticker would be defacing of (one's own) private property. As such this rule/guideline would not seem to apply to painting one's own rock. Also, it seems a commonly accepted practice to stick reflective tacks into trees on public property for night caches. Clearly this is defacing public property, but yet it seems to be allowed. Not trying to make a point, just reflecting on how arbitrary some of the rules seem to be. I agree the rules are there for good reasons, they just seem to be somewhat arbitrary and arbitrarily enforced.

To expand upon this a bit... Imagine you are responsible for park maintenance or whatever. In your duties you happen upon a spray painted rock. You see the rock is associated with geocaching. You make the assumption that geocachers are defacing park property. Geocaching gets banned at that park to avoid more defacing of the property. There is no way for those who happen upon the rock to know it is your rock and you imported it. There is much that is allowed in geocaching, and the stuff that isn't allowed is largely to avoid even the appearance of inappropriate behavior. In some states/places there are ignornant bans of geocaching that many work for years to reverse. The rules are there to try and prevent more occurances of the same. So, even though it really is OK, please don't mark rocks in any way because they are subject to being misinterpreted. Thank you for asking the question before doing it and please take this post in a friendly way.

That's a good idea, but one way to know if a cache is winter accessible is to add caches to your watchlist (or bookmarks if you are a premium member) and get the emails whenever something is logged for the caches. This way you can easily see what caches in your area are being found after the snow flies. When a cache is found you can either A: Go out before the next snow for a potentially* easy find or wait for the next snow to have more of a challenge. * fresh tracks in the snow make it easy to see where the previous cacher went, but may or may not make it easier to find the cache depending on how long that cacher searched and how wide a radius they trampled over.

I think y'all being harsh with the OP are feeding what may become a highly motivated cache pirate.

I totally understand your being bummed about the caches not be listed. Sure, you should have read all the guidelines first and all that, but stuff happens. Who wants to read all that anyway? Still, you did come over fairly defensive (offensive actually). No worries, stuff happens. Now, let's move on to something more constructive. You have 2 caches placed and this site won't let you list them. That effectively makes them geotrash which I consider a problem and my guess is you do as well. Your (responsible) options at this point are A. Solicit help from locals via these forums to adopt the caches and to give you credit for placing them. B. Go to one of the smaller caching sites and see if you can get your caches listed there. If you choose the latter option I would still suggest trying to find someone willing to pop in on them once in awhile to see if they need TLC. Thank you for taking the time to place a couple caches, you did a good thing.

My personal opinion is that trackable items simply cost too much. TB tags are what? $4 each? Coins are 2-3x that. I like the wooden nickel idea. About 50 cents to a dollar each and can be customized. If the trackable item was a low value item they probably wouldn't be as attractive to steal and it wouldn't be as much a disappointment to the owner when they went missing.

I would just ask the owner why he deleted the logs. I am just guessing, but if he left another cacher's DNf and deleted yours perhaps it was because you posted a DNF twice. Just guessing. Generally if I can't find a cache I will post a DNF, but if I go back and still don't find it I don't post another DNF. I will only post again if and when I find it. I could maybe see the cache owner mistaking you for a person who wanted to discourage others by posting multiple DNFs. There are some 3rd party apps that some use with caching that only show the last 4 visits to the cache. If all four of the last visits are DNFs many will just skip the cache figuring it isn't there. When I used this app, I did make that assumption. So, maybe this owner also is familiar with this app and doesn't want 4 DNFs in a row? Again, I would just ask. There is probably nothing at all malicious in his intent.

I placed an unused TB tag in a cache recently and logged that I took nothing and left an item of no interest to anyone other than those interested in TBs. Within hours the owner logged that he had 'paid a maintenance visit' to the cache, found a TB tag in it and would put it to good use soon. While I accept that it is the cache owner's prerogative to take swag from their own cache I can assure you I will not be dropping off anything of any value in any of their other caches. At least the guy had the decency to log that he took it, but wouldn't ya think he would have left something in the cache in exchange? When I leave trade items with actual cash value part of the enjoyment I get is seeing a future visitor log they took it. I would say the person taking the item logs it only 25% of the time. I have even left books registered with bookcrossing.com in caches with all the appropriate stickers and info on them. Not once has anyone logged they took the book on geocaching.com OR bookcrossing.com and I have confirmed the books have all been taken. Bottom line is there seems to be a high percentage of people, at least in my area, who are swag happy and won't even give the person leaving the item the satisfaction of a log note. No idea why I wrote all this, guess I just wanted an excuse to vent a bit.

Trust me, no offense taken, I totally understand where you are coming from. I have yet to see one, but I am not the world's most active cacher. Since my only knowledge of geocoins comes from the site I linked to in my previous post I have long asked myself why people would spend so much money for a collectable item. Now I know. I believe had I found a coin in the wild that had a tracking number/url on it or preferably came with a laminated explanation card I would understand what the intent was for it, but there are people out there who need to be told not to use the blow drier in the bathtub, ya know? Another thing to consider is that the opinions you will find on this site are coming from mostly experienced cachers who not only have been around a long time, but read the forums enough to know what the general standards are. I consider myself of at least average intelligence, but it took me awhile to figure out just what the deal was with geocoins. If I were to ever invest in such a coin I think I would place it in a member only cache and specifiy on a card with the coin I wanted it to travel only to other member only caches. Either that or only from 5/5 rated caches. Anything to keep the coin out of the hands of the general population which is where I believe most of the theives and newbies who don't know better are. Just my thoughts, but please do understand I completely understand your frustration and disappointment. I placed my first cache a few years ago and it went missing in short order. Haven't placed another yet although I have grand intentions of doing so. I was crushed by the effort and expense I went through just being taken by a jerk or someone who simply didn't know better. My new motto is I won't place anything into the wild that I would be bothered by losing forever. I have bunch of unused TB tags that I am simply slipping into caches I visit as I know my personality well enough to know the day I put out a TB and it goes missing I will be POed. So, I don't do it.

Whie I certainly understand what you are saying, I wonder if you are including anything with your coins that makes it very clear you wish them to be used as a TB rather than something the finder can keep? I am not new to caching, have no interest in geocoins, but was sincerily under the impression that if I found one I could keep it. The reason I am under this impression is because one of the larger geocoin tracking sites specifies they do not have to be put into another cache. Check out geocoin.net to see what I am talking about. On the main page click on the various coins that can be tracked at the site. A common blurb for the coins is "If you found one of my geocoins, log your find here. My geocoins are meant to be kept and enjoyed. You don't have to move them to a new cache but you can if you like. It will be interesting to see which geocoin can rack up the most miles before ending up in someone's collection." So I totally understand why you wouldn't want your investment in coins to simply end up in someone's private collection, but I can also completely understand how people with no ill intent could collect them and be clueless they were doing anything wrong. If I found one I would at least log it and see what the owner's intent for it was, but that's only because I have been around long enough to know to check these things. I can see many cachers finding the coin and not even knowing what a geocoin is.