SSO JOAT

If there's a chance you'll do anything with the GPS besides geocaching (backwoods camping, hunting, boating, trip navigation, etc), then you should consider something other than an eTrex series. They are cheap & cute, but they are not "great" GPS units. The 60 series is good and still compact, but has a battery bug that I don't like. The 76 series is the ultimate in handhelds. I bought a GPSmap 76CSx brand new through Amazon.com for $250. You can't beat it. Huge color screen, micro SD cards for map & track data, geocaching friendly, and you can use lithium, NiMH, NiCd, or Alkaline batteries in it. The speed, reception, and accuracy dwarfs the eTrex series.

Didn't know that... but why would you only want to sign up for 1 month?

There is a nearest waypoints page that will only list 1 page worth. Then there is the full waypoints list which shows you 1 page at a time. To see everything after the first page, you must scroll down through the current page line-by-line until you get to the bottom. Then it will give you new pages of waypoints after that.

As a new guy, let me tell you why I went premium about a week after signing up... to find the members only caches. Same reason for two of my geocaching buddies who signed up about the same time as me and I "sold" them on premium for no reason other than to be able to find more caches. It seems that some of the "old timers" don't realize the excitement that a new cacher has about just figuring out how many and roughly where the caches are in their community. To know that there are caches out there that you can't see on the map (but you can see the names in the search results) is plenty enough incentive to get a new cacher to sign up. The cost is insignificant and wasn't even considered in the decision for me; heck I would have paid $60 (annual). After becoming premium, I found out about Queries and such cool stuff, so that was just a bonus. By the way, the cost of premium is only $2.50 per month, not the $3 everyone keeps citing. You can hardly buy a bottle of sports drink for $2.50, so the cost just is not an issue what-so-ever. As for PMO cache listings, I have every intent to use them. In my mind, any complicated cache, especially if it's in an urban setting, will be PMO. A simple, easily repaired/replaced cache of a 2/2 or lower would be fine for open listing as I can deal with problems and if needed archive it without much heartache. If I put a lot of time into the hunt and/or containers, then PMO adds a little to protecting investment.

What makes a Garmin "geocache friendly" is the addition of some extra geocache features. These include special waypoint symbols for found and not-yet-found geocaches and the ability for the unit to automatically change that symbol when you find a cache. They have a find geocache function where it will give you a list of only geocache waypoints in order by distance from your current location. When you find a geocache, it will automatically tell you what the next closest cache is and ask if you want to go to it. Also, when you log a cache found, it will put a note in the calendar. When you get home, you can simply look at today's date on the calendar and you have a list of the GC# for all caches you found, which makes it easier for logging them online. A GPS that is not geocache friendly will still work, but will not have any of the logging features or automatic waypoint symbol changing, etc. It may or may not have the geocache box symbols (but most of them do). I've had an etrex vista for many years. The only good thing about it is the size. I dislike pretty much everything else about the etrex series. Screen is way too small, screen navigation is more difficult, accuracy is poor (smaller antenna). My current front line GPS is the GPSMAP 76CSx. The large color screen makes a huge difference. The speed and accuracy is astounding. The geocaching features are pretty nice, although I very rarely use the navigation function for land travel, as I'm a better navigator via a topographic map than any silly machine showing you a straight line. I'm not in a helicopter, so using the "go to" function usually only happens when I actually find a cache, and that is just to log it as found to get the calendar entry and symbol change. In my opinion, maps are extremely important for navigation. A non-map GPS will show a dot for you and a dot for your waypoint, but show you nothing about how to get from here to there. I would consider that a waste of money, but then I rely on GPS for much more than geocaching.

Or just move them within the 528' window and update the coordinates via a post to the listing.

Not at all and numbers mean nothing to me. Being the constructive type, I've got a half dozen cache builds on the bench right now. I'm all for planting new caches. That's not why I ask, though in a small hick town the real estate within the city to place caches IS rather limited. I'm just thinking that after a small urban cache sits there long enough, the visitors become infrequent and the local cachers are chomping at the bit for something to do without traveling way out. Why not periodically change a cache? Engineer a new hide within that 500' window, move the cache and give everyone a chance to hunt the area again. It's the logistics of moving the cache... if you keep the same GC#, then it will show as found on everyone's logs, so if you move it there's a good chance that many who found it before won't know it. If you archive and republish, then it shows up as a new cache, however it's really the same cache with the same swag, just a new hide nearby. I can come up with 6 reasons to keep the GC# and a half dozen reasons to publish a new one. I'm guessing this may be one of those topics that may be hotly debated across the aisle...

Geocaching.com lists 3 months as the minimum, but I certainly don't want to change it nearly that often. This would be a "permanent" cache since there will always be a cache at the site. It will just "updated" every once in awhile (no more than twice a year when the seasons change), but any time someone shows up to seek, there is a cache somewhere in this urban park strip that's about 500' long and 100' deep. The point is to change the nature of the cache enough that local cachers who found the original cache could seek out the revised cache and log another found it note. I can even place a micro note at the previous cache spot providing the updated coords just in case someone shows up searching with old data after the change is made. Have no problem with allowing plenty of time between such changes, be it 6 months or a year, whatever. If you change a cache, would it be best to keep the original name and GC# and simply post updated coords and edit the cache listing to relect the change, or do you create a whole new GC listing so that it gets pushed to the system as a "new cache"? Not trying to break any rules, just trying to provide more search opportunities for our local community by rejuvinating caches that everyone has already found. Call it recycling, rebooting, upgrading...

So, you've got a cache in a little city park. The park is small enough that only 1 cache can be listed there. There are many spots where a cache could be hidden in this park. There are only a couple dozen active cachers in the area and they've all found it. You get an occasional tourist stop to visit from outside the area. You want to "reboot" the cache with a new container and a different hide. Also, in the winter you want a different type of hide & container than in the summer. What's the best way to handle the listing? A- Disable listing, pull old cache, put new container in a different hide, edit the listing of the original cache (keeping the name & GC#), post coordinates adjustment, then enable the listing and allow everyone to log a new "found it". B- Archive original listing with a note that it's being changed, pull old cache, put new cache, publish new listing with the same name or a variation of it (e.g. Cache II), so it gets freshly published with a new GC#. Repeat this every time you feel like changing the hide (maybe twice per year), but never using the exact same hide twice so that each time you republish, it will be a unique hunt for the same group of cachers.

So, I've been thinking about this today and have come up with a fix. A slight adjustment to the initial point with a cache container at the published starting WP that has the puzzle and all needed hints to get through the whole series. The download of that page would be still available online so it could be worked out ahead of time, but it would also be doable for a cacher simply hitting the published waypoint (knowing it is a multi) and retrieving a copy of the puzzle and scrambled waypoints from the first small cache. They would then have all info needed to finish the cache in the field, which complies with the posted multi-cache description. Even though it has a puzzle, there is no longer a need for you to physically have the cache listing or the puzzle in advance as the puzzle can be pretty quickly solved in the field at a picnic bench right next to GZ. With that, I think a multi-cache rating would now trump the mystery cache rating and avoid all these grey areas.

Do you have a citation for this? All I find on geocaching.com is that a multi-cache (or offset cache) has multiple locations where each one provides a hint as to the next location. I've done a few multi-cache finds, and they all required you to read the cache page. Without having the cache listing, there was no possible way to have completed some of them. So does that mean they should have been Mystery caches? Conversely, the Mystery or Puzzle cache is where one must solve a puzzle prior to hunting the cache (again, according to geocaching.com). The only thing that is clear is that the cache I'm working on fits into both categories simultaneously. While a simple puzzle must be solved before you can complete this series of caches, each cache most certainly provides a hint to get to the next one. So, technically they ought to have a "Multi-Mystery" or an "Offset Puzzle" cache category. It doesn't matter to me which category it gets filed under, so I'd like to hear a consensus as to whether this should be a multi or a mystery. Which category trumps over the other one?

There's 2 easy ways to project from a Garmin. One is from your current position. Depending on the model, get into the mark waypoint mode like you're going to mark your current position. Then go to the menu (menu button on some, select the options icon on others) and pick "project waypoint". You can then enter a bearing and distance. You can save it, show it on the map, or just pick go to and start navigating. The other method is from an existing waypoint. If you've already got a spot saved (or have a point entered, such as a cache location) you look at the details for that waypoint (find it, waypoint menu, etc.) then you can go to the menu or options screen for that waypoint and select project waypoint same as above. The advantage of using this method is that you're starting from an established point (e.g. published cache waypoint) instead of where the GPS thinks you're standing right at the moment. We used to triangulate a position using waypoint projection in wilderness search and rescue. You've got 2 observers at different locations that are in radio contact. Using a compass, each takes a bearing at the same target landmark (e.g. a distress signal). The GPS operator marks the current position from observer A and makes a waypoint projection on the observed bearing placing a new waypoint well beyond the landmark (double the estimated distance). They then copy and create a waypoint radioed by observer B for their position and then project a waypoint on their bearing (again double the distance). Now, the operator creates a route from his position to his projected waypoint to the other guy's projected waypoint and back to the other guy's position. The route line will make an "X" on the map screen that is the rough position of the target. Pan the cursor to that spot and mark it as a waypoint. Radio that waypoint to the other team and you both navigate to it. It is fast and works really well as a field expedient triangulation method.

It's definitely a multi-cache, but the puzzle solving is the heart of this hunt. In fact, it's going to replace an archived multi that was in the same area. The owner of that one didn't want to rebuild it after the final cache container went missing and said that the spot was fine for me to take and put up a new cache. That was coupled with a challenge by another local cacher who is big on FTF. In fact, he's FTF on most of the caches in our area, so I'm using this area that is perfect for a multi to put in a higher difficulty puzzle type cache to give him and several other local cachers a good challenge. I've got it pretty much mapped out and am to the point of building the hide containers. It will probably be about 2 weeks before everything is ready to publish. I was thinking this would be a multi instead of a mystery, but I haven't really got down to those details of naming and such as I'm working out the nuts and bolts right now. Let me go ahead and share the general outline of the cache structure. The published waypoints are to the trailhead parking lot right in front of a large sign for the park (this state park trail system is short but steep and accesses public fishing sites on a river). But before going afield, one must solve a pretty easy Sudoku grid and bring it with them. This grid will be needed to decode the waypoints for some of the stages of the cache. Because a correctly printed grid is needed in the field, I'm linking the cache listing to a PDF file download of the puzzle grid with specific instructions to not scale it when printing. I'm also looking at placing some printed blanks of this grid in a container at the site so a cacher could do this via paperless methods (PDA & GPS get you there and solve Stage 1 and then you pick up and solve the sudoku grid at Stage 2 to finish the course - I solved the grid in less than 5 minutes, so it's a pretty easy one; this is not a challenge about how well you can sudoku). Also on the listing is a partial waypoint for Stage 2 with part of it encoded by letter replacements and instructions on how to decode that at the parking lot (Stage 1). Then there is the Stage 3 waypoint with all the numbers replaced by letters. You won't know how to decode this until you get to Stage 2 in the field. Stage 3 has something to do with the sudoku grid, but you don't know what at this point. Stage 4 also requires you to be able to enter a waypoint via projection of bearing and distance to get the final large cache at Stage 5. Being that I'm in the medical field, the FTF prize is a really nice first aid pack which I've built that probably has a "street value" of well over $100, so the incentive is there and the challenge and work required to get there must match. When they get to the parking lot sign (Stage 1), it is a simple word count/math puzzle provided in the cache listing to complete the minutes portion of the Stage 2 waypoint. There is also a code key that will be taken from this sign (a number equals a letter). It's not too far away in the woods; maybe 50 yards. When you get to that waypoint, I'll have a small container with the blank puzzles in it right next to a small wheel decoder device (built of aluminum, camo'd, and fixed in position via a locked cable to prevent theft). The base has some letters and the wheel has numbers (10 positions on the wheel). Set the key code in, and you can decode the Stage 3 waypoint from the scrambled one provided in the cache listing (which is also printed on the PDF puzzle page, so they don't have to have the cache listing and scratch paper). This waypoint is a bit further off and is accessed via the park trail system. Stage 3 is a decipher grille. Old code technology, but worthy of my needs. The grille is an aluminum plate with holes punched in it that when placed over the top of that sudoku grid, will show you the waypoints for the next spot (the zeros are stamped on the grille as needed). There is an alignment mark cut in it and a matching mark on the printed puzzle so you align them correctly. Instructions are stamped into the plate under the grille. Finding this plate will be a bit of a challenge in itself as I'm going to be using a cable/pulley type hide that is often used with micros in this area to hoist them high up into a tree. The plate is permanently crimped to the cable to prevent theft. But naturally, I'm building a couple of each of these items (grille & decoder wheel) so I can plant a replacement if needed (did I mention that I have a metal fabrication shop at my disposal?). After decoding the next waypoint, they will travel further down this portion of the trail system to a pretty well hidden container (hint... construction involves a chainsaw, router, and many wood working tools). This cache has a small container with its own logbook and instructions to create a projection waypoint from the current one. I'm not sure yet if I will encode the bearing and distance info or just give it to them. At this point, I'm thinking there have been enough ciphers and I'll just provide both true and magnetic bearings with the distance (which is about 0.2 miles line of sight). A basic primer on how to enter a projected waypoint would also be attached here. In fact, this will probably just be a laminated card attached to the small container. Oh, and since this container is going to be a little tricky to figure out, I'm planting a small decoy about 10' away that is a little sign on a cedar board hidden under what will look like a typical cache hide. It will say something to the effect of it not being that easy and you're very close, so keep looking. After punching in the projected waypoint, they should realize that they can't walk straight to it and will have to go back to the parking lot and take the second portion of the trail system the skirts the other side of the creek. Once over there, it will be another well camo'd, but large container set back in the woods. Note, the Garmins I use (GPS12XL, GPSMAP76CSx, & eTrex Vista) allows 0.01 mile accuracy on waypoint projection. Perhaps I can also give the thousandths minute numbers so that after they've punched in the projected point, they can verify it with the last digits? It might sound a bit more complicated than it is, but that's what happens when you try to type this out conversationally. My graphical outline of this multi is clear as a bell to me and everything flows together pretty well. All information needed to solve the stages is in the cache listing and at the cache sites. Since there are actual items in the field that are needed to decode the waypoints, I'm going to make it member-only and do my best to hide and secure them to prevent theft. So, I leave it wide open to comment...

I'm constructing a mystery/puzzle cache. To get to the final waypoint, I want the cacher to decode a bearing and distance (they've already decoded 2 other waypoints to get to this spot) that they will then use to create a projected waypoint for the final cache. Due to a creek and valley, there would be no easy way to go straight to the final cache from the point where they make the waypoint projection, but they will have to backtrack up a trail system to a bridge and use another trail system to get close to the final spot. I know all Garmins will easily make a projected waypoint, but I'm not so familiar with current offerings by Magellan, Lawrence, etc. So before I go forth with this method, I'd like to hear a little input that this will be doable (within a 3 or 4 star difficulty rating) with most GPSr's out there. I'm also considering including some basic instructions at that stage on how to create a projected waypoint to help out cachers who may not have done this before. I would also include a note in the cache listing that they need to be able to create a projected waypoint. Good, bad, or thoughts?

I had to compete with a black bear for a cache a few weeks ago, so just curious how many carry a firearm for protection when caching in the woods for protection from predators (obviously does not apply in all regions). Do you carry pistol or long gun, or do you prefer to carry bells and pepper spray, or a combination of all the above? Or do you just go nekid and hope for the best?

Thank you for a reasonable explanation of this issue. While it does not cover all aspects of the points made in the "other" thread, we'll just let it be as there really appears to be no chance for resolution of the perceived issues.

Nice, skip right over the topic and attack the poster. Nice duck-n-dodge routine. Another prime example of what I'm talking about. FYI, "Chastise" means to "punish". If you really think my post was intended to "punish" those who were trying to defame the original poster, then we've reached a communication impasse. My post was actually one of enlightenment, not ridicule.

Hate to hijack a thread, but this one is a prime example of poor reply etiquette. I might be extremely new to this particular forum, but I've got many thousands of posts amongst my other hobbies and outdoor activities on other forums. My first impressions of this particular board, "Geocaching Topics", is that there are a lot of really rude posters in here with a serious chip on their shoulders. I certainly do not see the same poor attitude on the "Getting Started" board, which is the only other one that I've lurked through since signing up as a geocacher. This guy asks a perfectly valid question of what he should do about a cache that might be on private property. Then he receives an immediate, off topic, personal attack... then another... and another until he is practically accused of lying to and arguing with a couple sweet little old ladies on a Sunday stroll. What's wrong with simply answering the question instead of making it personal? (By the way, the answer is clearly spelled out on Geocaching.com, just open the cache placement guide and read it). Do you all realize that when folks have to make "spelling correction" posts (not here, but many other threads) or start unfounded arguments or resort to name-calling and personal attacks, that this reflects poorly on the sport and drives away new cachers? Those regulars on here may be the very first people in Geocaching that a new cacher comes into contact with. If they are given a poor first impression, what are the chances that they will stick around? I know I've pretty much seen enough to do without this forum. A successful forum has moderators who actively enforce posting rules and edit or delete posts that detract from the topic or contain personal attacks. Are there any such people around here? I half expect this post will be flamed. Go right ahead, I wear Nomex & Kevlar; but deep down inside, you know I'm right. CosmicMiami, I'm sorry for the hijack, but the hostility I've read through over the last few days on this board is just ridiculous and these folks need to be called on it. Just write a note on the cache log stating that you were approaching the cache area and were told that it is on private property. Leave it at that and move on to another cache. There are plenty of them out there. Good luck with your future hunts.

New to GC myself, but I've been running GPS pretty much since public access to the system (GPS 40 was my first Garmin unit). Anyhow, the downside of the eTrex series is lower accuracy, especially under a canopy. To get a good waypoint, you'll first want to make sure you've had the GPS turned on and running for awhile (10 minutes or so). This allows it time to update the almanac data on all available satellites. While you might get a lock within seconds of turning it on, accuracy will generally improve over that first 10-15 minutes. Watch your satellite signal page to see all the bars change from outline to solid. Make sure that Differential is turned on (system menu) and wait until you have a "D" under all signal bars. When you're standing at the waypoint, turn slowly 360° with the GPS on the signal page and watch your signal strengths and the accuracy factor calculated by the GPS. Depending on your surroundings, simply facing a different direction can make a big difference. When you have the best signal, watch the coordinates for a couple minutes to see how it fluctuates. Having an accuracy of ~20' isn't that bad. If your signal is poor, you might leave and come back in a few hours. The sats are moving, so you may have a better constillation to work with at a different time. Mark your original waypoint and when you come back, see how close it is. You can also mark a series of waypoints, leaving the site between each one. Look at how close the previous waypoints are each time you come back. Allow a little time between each visit. You can manually average your cluster of waypoints to a central point for your final one. If you use Mapsource, go home and download your group, zoom in and create a new waypoint in the epicenter of that group, while ignoring anything that is obviously way out of range. Now put that waypoint in your GPS and return to the site using the new waypoint to navigate in. You should be pretty darn close to perfect if you go through all that.

Read this the other day, perhaps it would be a good place to start... http://geocacher-u.com/content/view/69/35/

While it 'could' be done using a hand drill with spade or forstner bits, you'd have a very difficult time on a "big" hole with a 3/8 drill (underpowered). A better option would be a 1/2 drill press. The best option would be a lathe. This operation would be very impractical with your 3/8 drill, no matter how you go about it. You'll never get straight and centered with a hand drill. A drill press will get you straight, even if not perfectly centered. A lathe is the proper tool for this task. When boring solid metal with a drill bit, you must start by drilling a 1/4" hole before you use any larger sized bit. This relieves the central web on the larger bit, allowing the outer cutting surfaces to do the work. The point of larger bits do not cut very well, if at all. This would be a router, if I get what you're talking about. A good router is an invaluable wood working tool. What it can do for you is only limited by how much money you have to buy bits and guides for it. Any number of cutting tools could be used here, including your chisel & mallet method (plan on taking a long time). Chain saws, circular saws, grinder with a cutting/shaping wheel, drills, explosives... you name it. Depending on the shape of this piece of plastic, you would probably get the most control out of a fine-toothed hand saw or even a hack saw. Anything that will cut metal will cut plastic. While wood cutting tools will also cut plastic, the finish will be very rough and you'll have less control over the cut due to how aggressive the wood cutting teeth are. Dremel tools are highly overrated. They are pretty good at cleaning and polishing small parts, but are rather difficult when it comes to cutting and shaping. It takes a lot of practice and experience to get decent results with a Dremel tool. I haven't built my own cache yet, but I'm going to soon. I'm working over a few designs based on some of the stuff I've seen available through the cache shops online.

Thanks guys. My thinking was right. I just keep seeing logs where the same person posts more than one time and uses "Found It" for every posting. And then there are the ones where they log the find, then come back and log that "they forgot to enter the TB" and they put that as a find instead of a note. Didn't make sense to me, so I wantd to bounce it off the forum to make sure.

So, I'm new to this. Been reading about Geocaching for years, but just started actively doing it in the last month. Skimming over the forum topics, it appears that there is a lot of belly-aching about proper logging, so before I violate some protocol, I want to be sure of what's expected. The question is, when you return to a previously found cache for whatever reason, do you log the next visit as a "Found It" or do you just "Write Note"? See the following cache for an example of what I did the other day. I basically worked through a long multi-cache and ended up finding it late in the evening. I just signed the log and went home to get some sleep. The next day, I stopped back and did a little maintenance as well as traded some items. I logged the second visit as a note, thinking that I'd already found (and logged) the cache the day before. Is this right? http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...2d-fa5ab4c1fd74 So now a little different twist. There is a cache I found a few weeks ago and I noticed a TB was dropped there yesterday. I can help said TB's goal, so I was thinking of going to pick it up. As I found this cache previously, do I log a second, but much later visit as found, or should I again just write a note that I picked up the TB or maybe even traded some items (my first visit was TNLN)? TFTH