Bobthearch

Campgrounds are like motels without walls, in my opinion. So I try to find a place on BLM or Forest Service land where you don't have to pay to camp and don't have to stay in a campground - following No-Trace camping guidelines of course. Generally speaking, at a National Park, National Monument, or state park you are required to use established campsites or campgrounds. Many national parks (perhaps Joshua?) have permits for backcountry camping for backpackers. Your best bet is to check the websites for the specific forests or parks you'd like to visit. Happy camping, -Bob

It worked! Thanks. I was really getting tired of seeing this one listed every time I searched for local caches. Baldy01 I worked at Philmont Scout Ranch for ten years and know darn well they don't allow trespassing for any reason. -Bob

What software are you using on the computer? -Bob

Wow, two new posts in the time I was writing the last... I guess there's a few of us archaeologists here, huh. The virtual cache in which everyone finds their own rock art is interesting. If I were to log a find, I would take the photo but not give the exact coordinates. Someone who CITOs a pile of prehistoric pottery sherds really needs to be informed better. I hope there aren't too many people like that out on public land. I believe most people could tell the difference between Corellware from WalMart and ancient pottery. It's the historic stuff that would most likely end up in dumpsters - spongeware from the 1800s and hole-in-top cans from the early 20th century could easily be "cleaned" up from the woods by inexperienced people trying to do the right thing. The factor there is Intent. Is the person having a clean-up day, or is it some greedy bottle collector who knows what he's doing is illegal but doesn't care because he doesn't have a bottle like that one? To me the worst is "collectors" who rob artifacts from public lands just to sell. They went to all the trouble and risk to steal that blue bottle from some BLM ghost town, but they didn't even like it well enough to keep it. The three dollars was sooo important... Sometimes, on prehistoric sites, some local hicks will dig up a place to get artifacts. Then they sell the artifacts for beer money. Then the items end up being sold somewhere for thousands of dollars. And who gets in trouble if caught digging... Wow. I've wandered pretty far off topic. Good thing the topic was re-located. Later, Bob

Most of out surveys are on public lands about to be impacted. We record everything that's over 50 years old, without regard to significance or site quality. Then all of the sites are avoided by the project. Many of the projects are seismic oil exploration, so simply driving around the site area is the solution. For a recent pipeline, they even routed the pipeline around every site. It wasn't easy, but it was definitely faster and cheaper than excavating. That saves the construction/oil/logging companies precious money - it can be very expensive to determine which sites are eligible to the national register because often subsurface testing (excavations) must be done, and it can slow a project for months, or years even. So by avoiding every site, the project can go one uninterupted with the absolute minimal disturbance to the site. We do occationally survey on private land. That would be for government-funded projects or projects requiring a state or federal permit. Never, in my experience, has a site affected what a landowner can do to his own property. It has affected what pipelines or power companies can do on the private land. The archaeology on some projects is also voluntary. For instance the electric company was biulding a substation on their own land. They hired me to stand and watch them dig, even though they didn't have to. Good for public relations, I guess. Yes, most people wouldn't know they were standing on an archaeological site. The things are ~everywhere~. The point of the geocaching guideline, I assume, wasn't to protect those kinds of sites, but rather the obvious-type sites that are vulnerable to damage. Many places in the country, if the land is level enough to sit on, there's a site. I've probably found and recorded thousands of 'em myself. Many times if a site is found to be insignificant, or "Ineligible for Nomination to the National Register" the project goes on uninterupted through the site. Later, -Bob

With the correct font you could rig up a photoshop image of a GPS unit saying something cool. I don't get the controversy... Sorry, I don't have an appropriate font. -Bob

All of the above. At the forums here I've read instances of TB kidnappings, geocachers intending to place them somewhere but never do, people collecting TBs, people moving the TB but never recording what they did online, and cachers doing the complete opposite of the bug's purpose. Personally, I have visited several caches that were supposed to have bugs. But each time there was none. I've never actually seen one myself... -Bob

Thanks. I guess I could have done that myself. Wheh, I'm glad I found this topic, I thought I was going crazy when all of the posts dissappeared from the other topic in mid-post. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Archaor, The "50 year-old or older" is just one of many guideline criterium that the law uses to define whether or not an archaeological resource is eligible for protection under the law.

Can someone also move my reply over here too? I got caught in the warp... -Bob

This is crazy! Where did the other posts go to? especially Renegade Knight's that I was replying to? Now everone probably thinks I'm crazy! There were 14 posts to this thread just a minute ago. Honest! -Bob

Doing archaeological surveys, 50 years is a strict cut-off, no judgement involved. If there's a GLO survey marker from 1955, we don't record it. If the date is 1953 we do. 50 years... In my opinion, they need to come up with a cut-off date, rather than an age. There's just too much 50s and 60s junk. Pretty soon we'll be recording trailer park pads as archaeological sites. I'd personally choose WWII as a cut-off. Post WWII stuff is so common, and so mass produced, and so well documented, that there's very little research interest or potential. There are newer places of obvious historic interest, and places newer than 50 years old can be added to the National Register of Historic Places. That's not the same as an "archaeological site." Just because sites aren't on maps, you aren't banned from visiting. You can still go there, they just don't advertise the locations publicly. You apparantly have no idea the amount and severity of vandalism and theft on public lands. Fossil-thieves and cave-defacers are also serious problems. You might also be interested to know that the locations of archaeological sites are exempt from the Freedom of Information Act. Meaning you can't go to the B.L.M. and demand to see archaeological records, or any goverment records that show precise site locations. Caves have similar protection I think. Archaeological firms, such as where I work, often publish two versions of the same report, a full report with detailed location info that goes to the state and other government agencies, and one without specific site or artifact locations that can be released to the general public. Since your interest appears to be nature preservation, I bet you wouldn't want thousands of people trampling cryptogramic soil or fragile riparian areas. That could happen if specific fragile natural were labeled as such on public maps. There's a similar re-occuring conversation that goes on in outdoor communities. Does advertising a great hiking spot, say by writing a Backpacker article, bring in so many people that the area is ruined? Or does it help protect the location by bringing attention to potential threats? Fortunately there are significantly fewer geocachers than readers of Backpacker and our impact is proportionately less. It's not a question that will be easily answered on these forums. But what we can do is follow the established Geocaching guidlines, which prohibit placing caches at archaeological sites or in fragile environmental areas. The problem is that some people, the type of people unlikely to be Geocachers, get "public" land confused with "their" land. Conversely, archaeological sites on private property are Not protected. If you have an arch site on your property, you can dig it up, bulldoze it, leave it alone, whatever. The only exception is that burials are protected on private land - via. the Unmarked Graves Protection Act, and another law meant to protect historic cemeteries that can also be applied to prehistoric burials. Thanks for listening. Nothing but good wishes, -Bob

Interesting about that. Often projectile points are the only diagnostic artifacts at an archaeological site. Once the datable items are removied, the site loses all meaning and research potential. Take for example a scatter of stone-tool artifacts found in the path of a proposed pipeline. Since the proposed pipeline is on public land or requires a state/federal permit, an archeological survey is required. That's where I come in - so I survey the path and find the artifact scatter. If all I see is non-datable stone debris, the site has little meaning and further study of the site is useless. But if I can find a datable/diagnostic artifact, such as a projectile point or pottery sherd, the site could have tremendous scientific value. Additional analysis of even the most crappy debris suddenly is worthwhile because the information gained can be applied to particular cultural group or time period. They might even re-route the pipeline around the site. Additionally, it is totally illegal to collect artifacts from public lands. Land agencies love to make an example of the few people they can catch. If they were collected from private land, it's perfectly legal as long as you had the landowner's permission. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ About the beer cans, I guess it all comes down to ownership and context. Personally, if I found 50-year-old beer cans on my land scattered along a highway, I would throw them in the dumpster. If the same type cans are found on BLM land, it would be illegal to disturb them. Historic coyboy, logger, miner, or hunter campsites are an important component to the archaeology and history of the southwest. Best Wishes, Bob

Had some difficulty with a camp staff member once who had "cleaned up trash" from a historic logging town. He had to put it all back! It's sad how quickly historic and prehistoric artifacts "walk away" from public lands... -Bob

There is a Garmin PDA-GPS-in-one. The trouble I see is that PDAs are generally not as durable as GPS units. I bet since Garmin has one, Magellan won't be far behind. Rocky River, Thanks for the link. I might try it out. -Bob

I don't actually own one myself, which is odd being that I collect (accumulate?) knives. If I were to buy one today, I'd get the SOG with the gear-driven pliars. Happy shopping, Bob

It is much more fragile than an ordinary petroglyph site, and it has never been vandalized. As a professional archaeologist, this is one of the most fragile arch. sites I've come accross. When trying to find out what to do months ago, I asked at these forums and followed the advice. That was after attempting to e-mail the owner. You know Geocaching has a policy regarding caches at archaeological sites. Technically and legally, an arch site is remnants of human occupation over 50 years old. I don't think that an abandoned 1954 Chevy in the woods shouldn't be a cache site, but technically... Any reference to ruins or rock art have been removed from the latest editions of USGS topo maps, just to show how serious the problem of vandalism and over-visitation is in the Southwest. Rock Art already part of an advertised park, such as the Pertoglyph National Monument, should be OK. But being a Monument, it would have to be a Virtual. -Bob

Aha! I didn't read their entire stats. Notice that that the other cache they owned (archived) was in Akron. The last time they found a cache was 2001. Going to place note on Bady01 page now... -Bob

The first cache, the non-existing one with private property issues: I didn't place a note on the cache's website, but if you think it would help... I ~did~ send e-mail about it and never heard anything. That was a couple of months ago. The second one, the fragile archaeological site (don't want to place a link for it here): I ~did~ place a note on the cache page, four months ago, as well as send e-mail. It's a Virtual cache to begin with, so there's no litter issue. -Bob

Can you give a link to where I can find instructions? -Bob

I've reported two caches that should be archived. One is a vacation cache left on private property that No One has ever found. The second is a very fragile archaeological site. I e-mailed the Geocaching website a couple of months ago and absolutely nothing happened. Shouldn't someone at least have responded to my e-mail? Both of the caches are still active. Here's a link for the private property cache: Baldy01 Note that the cache owner has never visited the website, never logged a cache, and the e-mail address is no good. Odd how four accounts are watching this cache... What's up? Is the local approver asleep at the wheel? -Bob

Who owns the caches near my house? That's a good question. I can tell you one thing, it isn't people that live around here. It seems both of the local caches are "vacation caches" althought they are maintained. You see, around here there aren't a handful of GPSes, and I'm sure I'm the only one in my area that GeoCaches. -Bob

You shouldn't change someone else's container. If you want, you could e-mail the owner and ask about adding a sticker ~before~ vandalizing their box. -Bob

On the 76S I'd like: * to be able to turn off the barometer. I just don't use it, * to replace the pad with an eTrex Thumb Stick, * to not have to remove the unit from the case every time I want to use it, * to skip the disclaimer and other splash screen. -Bob

I've gotten 12 at a time in the open desert, but all don't have strong signals. Obviously more is better, but I wouldn't pay a bunch extra for 18. $5 extra, why not. $100 extra, no way. -Bob

Golf Balls? Golf Balls? Don't get me started! Thos things are ~everywhere~ out here. I've found them on top of mountains, in the desert miles from a road, Everywhere! As near as I can figure, someone flies around in an airplane dumping them out. And rarely have I surveyed anywhere that didn't have the remains of helium ballons. Please, in the name of all that is holy, STOP turning those dadgum things loose! Just an early morning, slightly hung over, haven't eaten yet, rant. -Bob