Teach2Learn

I agree the screen on the 60s is better but I think the touch screen is worth it and I am at the upper end of the demographic so not all older people prefer buttons. Yes, I'm sure it works both ways. In my early 40s here with good vision and I prefer buttons to touchscreen most of the time. Still, I like the Oregon 450 (a local cacher generously lets others use it for a Wherigo) but am waiting for user reviews of the 62s (and perhaps a firmware update) before making a final decision.

The funny thing is I found it on your website's link to Cabela's: $399.99 for the 62s.

That assumes one prefers touchscreens over buttons. I think you may be surprised by how many (and not just older generation) like the buttons. From discussion with Oregon 450 owners, if you put a screen protector on the touchscreen, it can also make it a bit more temperamental when pressing. They also said that the 60-series (and likely the 62) was still easier to read when moving in and out of sunlight/shade. It's a tough call between the two unless Wherigo is important to the cacher. The current 62s is already $399 instead of the retail $449, so the price differential is decreasing.

Willard is within range of a well-known and respected reviewer/moderator in the caching community who just happens to provide the Leprechauns bookmark list of favorite caches. It includes caches in northern Ohio and Pennsylvania, so perhaps not too far out of your territory.

This looks like a creatively designed and detailed cache, one I'd certainly like to find if I'm ever in that area. I am curious as to why it's listed as only a 2-star difficulty rating with the multiple stages and the likelihood that it would take hours to complete. I realize that the ClayJar rating system may skew too high in many hiders' minds (including mine), but wouldn't this at least be a 2.5 or a 3-star difficulty? Without being familiar with the area or viewing topo maps, I'll assume the terrain isn't too strenuous as a 2-star. Not trying to quibble, just curious.

If you're talking about the new 62/78 series, there have been multiple threads on the topic, including this lengthy one on the Garmin 62.

I fail to see why you are ranting about Groundspeak. The one you should be angry at is the author of the software your using that has a serious and major design flaw. I realize he did not tell you that it scraps the site in violation of the terms of use and would break if the site made slight changes. If he designed the software without this major design flaw you would not be having this problem. I think it is totally unacceptable and unrealistic to expect the site to never change the layout or make improvements for fear of breaking your software. I've been through many site changes without the slightest hickup. As the site continues to make changes to adapt a mulit-lingual capability I expect you will continue to be upset with the author of your software. Agree with jholly. To respond to your query, Groundspeak is a business, the leading business in the geocaching community, so in that respect geocaching is business related. Groundspeak is working on an app, obviously not fast enough for you. However, they do the work of listing/organizing and GCzII scrapes (aka steals) that information from the database. That's just wrong. Until the official app (or an agreement between Groundspeak and GCzII is reached), demanding "SORT IT OUT" is unlikely to help. As long as GCzII continues to break the TOU, expect its program's usability to be inconsistent at best. If you don't wish to wait, you have the option of getting another device to enjoy the fun of caching. I hope something works out soon, but I don't think 3rd party apps that Groundspeak doesn't oversee are the way to go.

Unless the OP misunderstands the series, he was, too -- hence the reply he got. I'd take a 450 over a 62 any day. A 62s would overcome my objections if the price was right. If it is just the Oregon 450 versus the 62, the Oregon 450 wins. For me, it's a toss-up between the Oregon 450 and the 62s, both with expandable memory, electronic compass, paperless caching, etc. --The Oregon 450 has had firmware updates (finally) to fix many of the bugs owners complained about and has Wherigo. --The 62s seems to be a 60csx update similar to the Colorado/Oregon but without Wherigo. However, it does have a quad helix antenna that some prefer. If the 62s price doesn't come down after the July(?) release, the Oregon 450 has an advantage. --Oregon's touchscreen or 62s buttons is an individual preference. Red90 may have the best advice: check out both units yourself. For now, you might be able to attend an event and get a feel for (as in borrow, not steal ) someone's Oregon 450, perhaps even hunt a cache with it. You can already compare specs on the Garmin site and then wait (if you can) for the reviews and check out the 62(s) personally in a month or two.

Unfortunately, I guess Garmin is gambling that most 62-series purchasers will be willing to pay up for the 62s or 62st to have the expandable SD card memory. Wasn't it the same with the 60-series where the SD card memory was with the 60cx and 60csx, not the basic 60? If it worked for them then, perhaps it will now, though the GPS/caching landscape has definitely changed since then. If I'm wrong, I hope someone with a better memory corrects me. I'm riding the fence. If the Oregon 450 is still cheaper after the 62s is on the market, the decision will be even more difficult. On topic, the Birdseye imagery is an intriguing benefit and alternative to Google maps. I wonder if they'll continue not just to expand it, but to improve it with updates to make it worth subscription fees.

I realize you didn't use the word "stubborn" in describing Groundspeak. I was referring to what I perceive to be the attitude toward TPTB of GCzII users currently unable to use the app. I hope I'm wrong.

This statement assumes at least two things. 1. When did Groundspeak state they had "no interest in providing their own competing product"? Although they haven't come out with one or made it a top priority like the iPhone app or the Droid app they've stated is their focus, it doesn't mean they're not interested. They've allowed discussion of GCzII more than other apps that violate the TOU, so they must at least recognize its potential value. 2. "The app doesn't steal business from the site." This is highly debatable. Some will still become premium members, but others have already noted that they see no reason to do so or support gc.com if they can get most of the same benefits for free. That does cost Groundspeak and they are a business. The success of third-party apps occurs when those involved can agree. It may or may not happen with GCzII (for your sake and others, I sincerely hope it does) in the timeframes you desire. In the meantime, there are other options. Instead of tellling Groundspeak to stop being stubborn, can't that work both ways? Sigh...I know it's hard to be patient, but it seems to devolve quickly into unnecessary demands and threats.

But that is the point... They don't.... They killed the Colorado. Yes, I can understand the disappointment/frustration of Colorado owners. If Garmin had chosen the Colorado over updating the 60/62-series, I would have felt it too. Admittedly, the Colorado's entry being more recent may have caused many to believe it would not be discontinued so soon. My guess is that Garmin looked at the number of 60-series (and Oregon) owners vs. Colorado owners and felt the former had better sales appeal. I've been waiting a long time for the 60-series (62s) to become paperless so I can compare the specs/reviews to the Oregon 450 before upgrading, but I don't mean to exacerbate Colorado owners. One question related to your other post--doesn't changing the setting to a higher level of brightness on the Colorado or Oregon receivers cause a significant amount of battery drainage?

This excerpt from a note posted by the CO is the part I found remarkable: "...the container is a small 35mm film canister, there is very little room for anything bigger than a coin and certainly no room for a log-book and pencil, so please log your visit on-line." If it can fit a coin, it's certainly big enough for a micro log. It may also be worth noting that the CO peviously tried to change the cache to a virtual but was stopped by the reviewer in January. Perhaps the CO became a cacher in 2002 and hasn't kept up caching over the years...thinking the log has to be an actual notebook?

To each their own...more visible screen in sunlight (even though smaller) and the button arrangement of the 60csx/62s are what I prefer over the Colorado. Guess that's why Garmin can sell a variety of GPS receivers.

"Bullies" for enforcing their TOU/EULA when they're a business? Wow. Perhaps something will be worked out in the future with GCzII, but I don't think unlimited use of out-of-house apps is the way to get there. I'd rather wait on Groundspeak to get it right, whether it's GCzII or the Droid app they've been working on for months. In the meantime, options include: --Trimble/iPhone apps --Dedicated caching handheld GPSr --Continue to deal with the frustration of a scraping app going down each time gc.com updates.

At present, those issues make me lean to the GPSMap 62s over a Colorado or Oregon. --I like the 62s buttons (similar to the 60csx) better than the rock-n-roller controls or a touchscreen. --I don't consider the large screen/higher resoluton an advantage when the visibility isn't as good as the 60-series...that's why the 62-series is keeping a lower resolution/smaller screen. You can increase the brightness, but it still doesn't solve the issue in sunlight and possibly(?) increases battery drain. --I do want the proximity alarm and day/night mode from the start.

You might want to see a doctor for help with that.

I didn't mean for it to sound like it was a done deal by saying I was focusing on it for future purchase, though I can see how it sounded that way. I plan to wait until the reviews come out in July/August and possibly until the first firmware update. At that point, I'll compare it to the Oregon 450. Current thoughts (may change with more info): GPSmap 62s: Pros: paperless caching, rugged hardware, quad helix antenna, sensitive chip receiver (SIRF or other recent chip), non-touchscreen, expanded memory (in comparison to 60csx) and mapping potential, visibility, 60-series support suggests future support Cons: current pricing (hoping for deals), lack of Wherigo, smaller resolution (but possibly easier to view than Oregon?), new product bugs Oregon 450: Pros: paperless caching, firmware updates' resolution of past issues, Wherigo capability, sensitive chip receiver, expanded memory and mapping potential, higher screen resolution, lower price than current 62s MSRP Cons: dimmer screen, tracking issues (unless truly fixed), touchscreen (personal preference only) I'm guessing there will be many comparison threads for the 62-series, not only with the Oregon, but including the DeLorme PN-series and Lowrance Endura, among others.

Oops...duplicate post

Although at the higher end price wise, it is possible that with the 60-series reputation, the 62-series could achieve similar status and sales. Right now, I'm focusing on the 62s for future purchase to eventually replace my faithful 60csx. The addition of paperless caching is the main selling point for me. I think it was smart of Garmin to retain the quad-helix antenna. The customized mapping possibilities appear to keep expanding. I'm not sure that the 62st topo map is worth the additional $100, though I'm certainly open to considering other opinions. A touchscreen on a handheld GPSr isn't something I desire, though I realize I may be in the minority, especially with all the Oregon owners.

Just this past week, I searched the website for the same cache without success as I hope to pass through Erie this summer. So many of the longtime multi/series caches disappear before out-of-town visitors get to them, though I understand that maintenance and other issues are factors. The Bill and Gary Excellent Adventure annual series was another I always wanted to do but never reached. I love theme series caches with an actual storyline, not just a theme title.

Here's a fun one near Woodstock, Ontario that I found two years ago called Yggdrasil...challenging but not overwhelming with a satisfying finish. On its cache page, you'll see bookmark lists for other night caches in Ontario...not too far from SE Michigan, especially if you combine the trip with a visit to the Stratford Festival.

Although unaware of your schedule, I hope you plan some time for caching in Louisville, KY, home of the 1st Annual GeoWoodstock back in June 2003. Local organizations include: INKY Geocky The Tom Sawyer cache referenced in an earlier post is the oldest active cache in KY and E.P. "Tom" Sawyer Park does have many fine caches, but I think many locals would agree that some of the most creative, original, and fun caches are the downtown hides of Show Me the Cache, including: Saint James Court and Reflections. As the cache page bookmark lists (21 bookmarks for Reflections alone) and logs indicate, they are favorites of locals and visitors alike. Of course, if you have a few hours (and the requisite physical stamina), you may want to head just across the river for Captain McHarry's Vault, listed as a 4/5 cache with a mysterious past and an amazing view of the Ohio River. Hope this information and the above links help, especially since you previously had some trouble finding our very active caching community, though most are admittedly more in the field than in the forums--I need to wait until the school year ends.

ALRs were never my thing, but the attitude of laughing at somebody else's opinion as if it's worthless borders on personal attack. Having read the posts throughout the week, I fear the "good riddance" tone of some (not all) of those on this thread fails to communicate the new guideline's intention to improve caching. Unfortunately, the tones/attitudes (perhaps moreso than the guideline) come across as a slap in the face to ALR cache owners who genuinely believe they were being creative, not just being obsessive about controlling cachers. Waldo's view may be shared by many more cachers than TPTB realize and that could impact the bottom line, though I doubt most will cancel membership.

One possibility is the default background color of the 60csx. At night, my background color would change and then revert to the beige during the daytime. I believe this is easily overridden by resetting it with your own choices regardless of time.