Dr. House

Insightful. Thank you. I'd say that the question still stands and would be best served as answered by GSP. Though I wonder if there are perhaps legal implications that would prevent them from commenting either way...

It should be a given that if you knowingly break the law to find a cache, then arrogantly write about your criminal activity on the cache page, you should expect your log to be deleted. I agree with this completely. Substitute "stupidly" for arrogantly if need be. So can we agree that if the person breaks some sort of law that they never mention, that you would then be OK with that find log standing?

C'mon, I am not talking about a parking ticket. People who knowingly trespass after hours, break the law, or violate park rules and admit it on their log. I would delete the log and tell them to fix their log if they wish to have the find. Some would just ask them to edit their log, but I have the right to delete their log. I would not delete someone's log if they get a parking ticket, because I just wouldn't. Everything is subjective and everyone is different. Do you believe that people's logs should stand, even though they knowingly trespassed and hurt geocaching's reputation? Is the find count more important than that? And no one said the guy couldn't rewrite a new log after it is deleted. It might be a way for the owner to show the finder that their actions weren't responsible. Everybody does it different. But that's just it - where do you draw the line? Which "laws" can be broken and still result in keeping your find log intact? Which laws can't be broken without having your log deleted? Who gets to decide? I'm sure each cache owner would have a slightly different interpretation of this very subjective guideline. I have to admit to being swayed a smidge regarding that SC incident, but I still stand with TGPS on this one. Being a lawbreaking idiot still does nothing to remove the fact that the cacher actually found the cache and is entitled to log their find. So the almighty notch on the "find belt" is more important than protecting geocaching and its integrity? I'm not saying delete every find for any reason, but if I find someone writing a log that an authority figure could read and kick me out of their park(s), I will delete the log faster than you can spit. That also includes logs that include swearing and crudeness. The owner is not the villain here. The finder should use common sense and courtesy, just like the owner should. There has to be respect on both sides. Of course there has to be respect. If that were me finding the cache, I would respect the law enough to not mention whatever law I may been perceived to have broken, even though I am innocent until proven guilty. If I were the cache owner, I would feel compelled to have to accept the cacher's find based on the fact that the cacher found the cache and signed the log, even though the cacher may be a complete nuisance. Again, understand that I do realize your point of integrity. So much so that I would respect it to the point of not having to like it when someone finds a cache even though they broke some rule/law, because at the end of the day, the finding of the cache is integral to geocaching. Thus, based on the guidelines, I couldn't delete their "find".

C'mon, I am not talking about a parking ticket. People who knowingly trespass after hours, break the law, or violate park rules and admit it on their log. I would delete the log and tell them to fix their log if they wish to have the find. Some would just ask them to edit their log, but I have the right to delete their log. I would not delete someone's log if they get a parking ticket, because I just wouldn't. Everything is subjective and everyone is different. Do you believe that people's logs should stand, even though they knowingly trespassed and hurt geocaching's reputation? Is the find count more important than that? And no one said the guy couldn't rewrite a new log after it is deleted. It might be a way for the owner to show the finder that their actions weren't responsible. Everybody does it different. But that's just it - where do you draw the line? Which "laws" can be broken and still result in keeping your find log intact? Which laws can't be broken without having your log deleted? Who gets to decide? I'm sure each cache owner would have a slightly different interpretation of this very subjective guideline. I have to admit to being swayed a smidge regarding that SC incident, but I still stand with TGPS on this one. Being a lawbreaking idiot still does nothing to remove the fact that the cacher actually found the cache and is entitled to log their find.

I would suggest that nothing in the guidelines allows a CO to delete a log for a found geocache either, regardless of the manner by which it was found. Perhaps that was what you meant to say? If so, my apologies. EDIT: Foul or abusive langauge in the found log being the exception. Well you can delete a log for any reason at all. Now is that right, or will the log be re-instated by a lackey and undeleteable by the CO is another discussion. Jim Agreed Jim.

Puzzle caches and multis are not much of a challenge to reviewers. They already know exactly where the final is. Absolutely agreed! FWIW, I'd obviously still prefer to say that I found it by the intended means rather than opening the waypoints. One of the things that bites about being a site volunteer is having your personal ethics and integrity be the butt of jokes when the issue of hard multicaches and puzzles is raised. Fortunately we are protected by our kevlar flak jackets. To avoid any lasting angst, I'll retreat from this inhospitable discussion without posting my reply to the substantive question. Agreed. I trust that other reviewers don't do this for the benefit of the game.

I would suggest that nothing in the guidelines allows a CO to delete a log for a found geocache either, regardless of the manner by which it was found. Perhaps that was what you meant to say? If so, my apologies. EDIT: Foul or abusive langauge in the found log being the exception.

My personal belief is that you could not delete someone's found log on the basis of what you mention alone. They found the cache, they signed the log. Nothing states that a log risks being deleted if the cacher chooses to break local laws anywhere on geocaching.com, so far as I can find. My thought is that this "right" is more etiquette than anything else. But I too am interested in an answer to this query. It certainly has been brought up a lot as a result of discussion about recent guideline changes.

To me that would either be an ALR or, potentially, 3 separate caches depending on the distance between. In the end, I'm not sure that you could legitimately deny a "find" on the final if a cacher advances to, and finds the final by means other than what you as the CO intended - certainly not based on new guidelines.

Post #2 provides a direct link.

I have no real gripe about LPC's save for the fact that they seem to be favorite homesteads of wasps, and I have an insane fear of bees. Knowing this, my family laughs at me and thinks I've gotten myself knee-deep in the wrong sorta hobby since bees are pretty much everywhere. I actually get nervous when approaching a lampskirt in a parking lot far more than anywhere else I've been, as silly as that may sound to everyone else.

Puzzle caches and multis are not much of a challenge to reviewers. They already know exactly where the final is. Absolutely agreed! FWIW, I'd obviously still prefer to say that I found it by the intended means rather than opening the waypoints.

Good to hear. I haven't done many, but several people in this area work hard to put out quality WiG's (Tequila, for one) so it would be a shame for that work to have been rendered moot. Perhaps one lost opportunity is another's gain?

As I understand the guidelines for submission, the reviewer should have been told how to solve the puzzle before it was approved for listing. At least that was required for the few puzzle caches I placed after we were required to put the final coords in an additional waypoint. My local reviewer doesn't ask for the solution. Ditto. I think that as a reviewer, I wouldn't want to miss out on the fun that a good puzzler can bring me. Knowing how to solve it would take away from the challenge. That being said, once I received a couple of SBA's, I may wish to question the CO for that answer. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the case in this scenario. BTW, that does seem like a good one, so good luck to you in figuring it out.

And it was still fun. And as I look at it, I think everyone states that they've performed the optional activity as requested. Could be that we're just a bunch of crazy canucks though!!

All of Groundspeak's games (GC, WM, WiG) will be molded into one unified game wherein everyone gets a smiley (or some other signifier of completion) for doing any one of those items.

Since when? I can see deleting the logs of someone who was given the coords to the final but what about someone who was either smart enough or just plain lucky enough to figure out where the end would be? How about the person who finds the final to a cache in the same place they were planning on placing their own? Should they not be able to log what they found? What if that person was a brand new geocacher - deleting their log would likely turn them away from the game before they've really started. Deleting logs, according to the guidelines, is meant for getting rid of bogus logs (where someone didn't really find the cache - think armchair logging), not for giving CO's the power to arbitrarily delete logs from people they don't like for whatever reason (including being outsmarted). Okay, not the point of my post, but since you and Dr. House both picked on my secondary commentary...I was simply reiterating GS policy that COs have the ability to delete logs. (Sheesh.) I didn't say the CO must or should delete the logs of multicache finders who don't do all the stages (for whatever reason), just that they could. I wouldn't do it, but I know cache owners who have. Not trying to pick on you, just honestly trying to see if such a rule existed from someone who's been around this thing longer than myself. If someone had posted a found log advising the specific whereabouts or obvious hint pertaining to the location of a cache, I might consider deletion asking the individual to re-log their find, but doubt I'd ever actually do it. To me, I've brought you to a nice area and you found and signed a log. The End. I'd rather save log deletion for random instances where people might wax idiotic on the cache page, when clearly inane conversation is not designed to be had.

This notion of "the right to delete logs of finders who don't do the intermediate stages" confuses me. I've seen it a number of times in the forums today while discussing the dropping of ALR's. My thought has always been "found the cache, sign the cache, log the cache", though I admittedly haven't been in the game as long as the poster of this statement. So now I'm sincerely curious and hope someone who has been around much longer than myself can shed some light on this: Was there ever a stipulation in the guidelines that stated that an individual's found log could be deleted with some sort of evidence supporting the fact that not all stages were found on a Multi or Mystery cache? What is Groundspeak's stance on this matter? I recognize that you lose some of the experience of caching by not performing all the tasks (and I would encourage people to actually do all of them) but it seems Draconian to me for Groundspeak to have ever had such an unenforceable policy.

Very true. I don't think anyone would argue that. Allow me to touch on the key word in your statement: "Want" I assume from your language skills that you know the difference between someone wanting something and someone demanding something? Most puzzle caches I know of would qualify as a "want", since, by its very creation, it can be inferred that the owner would like you to follow their footsteps to get the final coords. The same is true for most multis. There are a few puzzles and multis where the owner dictates specifically that any finders who bypass the puzzle and/or stages will have their logs deleted, however these seem to be the exception, not the rule. "I would like this, please" vs. "Give me that right now" Want vs. demand. Since Groundspeak is the final arbiter regarding what rules exist in this game and what rules do not, I would say they are the ones who say if there are any "requirements" for finding puzzle caches. Here are the guidelines for mystery caches. http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines...x#mysterycaches Can you see anything in them that dictates a puzzle MUST be solved prior to logging a find on a puzzle? I can't. Huh? If you don't complete the "required" puzzle, how will you get the coordinates for the cache short of getting them from another cacher? I've found some (and would imagine that some have been found) by: - Following a random geo-trail leading to nowhere in particular - Looking for places to hide my own caches - Paying attention to clues inadvertantly posted in finders' logs - Recognizing areas by photograph and performing a quick search of that area - Noticing odd piles of sticks/wood where there really shouldn't be any - Lifing random lampskirts at the nearby Wal-Mart To me, that's just being resourceful, cognizant of one's surroundings, and in some cases, lucky. I wouldn't ask to take a "hide" away simply because I stumbled upon a cache that was poorly hidden (or perhaps, not hidden well enough after being found), so I don't see why somebody would have to solve the riddle or risk having a "find" log removed. This debate might best be served in a separate forum post (Performing All Stages vs. Signing Final Cache) and I think I've contributed enough to the conversation veering off topic somewhat. Suffice it to say as mentioned in the OP, ALR's have now gone the way of the dodo, but I will still enjoy them in all their "suggestive" glory whenever possible.

It's good to see that we agree in most aspects. We both (perhaps, we ALL?) want people to do all stages/puzzles because it's just plain more game that way. I will just politely agree to disagree with deleting logs for those who admit to not doing all stages, but have actually found the final. I also think that while this kinda thing happens, it is in the minority of occasions. Similarly, I'd also like to think that if we put a silly hat or Groucho Marx sunglasses in a cache and ask people to post a picture if they choose to do so, that only a minority of people would not partake in the sillyness. Cuz it's just supposed to be fun, no matter how you play.

I bought the Sawyer's spray last year. Its supposed to last 6 weeks on the clothing even when washed. Think I'll be caching in the north this summer! I noticed Nozz posted links to where he ordered his permethrin and I found that quite helpful. Wondering if we all could post links or give store names to where one could find these products. The more informed we are, the more we all enjoy the game.

In my opinion? No! If these people only wanted you to find a cache, they would've hidden one stinkin' cache! Multis usually weren't hidden for people to find creative ways to bypass them. See, somewhere along the few years I have been away from the Geocaching forum, some finders started believing they had more rights than owners and they had the right to do whatever the heck they wanted to do, as long as they signed a logbook. The reason there aren't rules that YOU HAVE TO FIND EVERY STAGE OF A MULTI is because it is so dang obvious! What idiot needs to have a rule down that states they need to find every stage of a multi to log it as a find. It is an unwritten rule, because there used to be something called "respect for the cache and its owner". I hide caches for the finders, but I also expect them to respect my cache and whatever stuff I have worked on to set it up. Some owner's don't care, but some do! The good thing to do is to act like EVERYBODY cares that you are respecting the owner, the cache, the rules, the unwritten rules, and the spirit of the game! Has geocaching become so numbers hungry that signing the log is the only thing important to everybody??? My God, what the heck is happening? This "idiot" apparently does. This "idiot" is also curious how a CO could possibly confirm whether a cacher did everything they intended, if the found log makes no mention of this, to take such action anyway? The cacher found the cache and signed it. At that point, I think you are outta luck. Again, I will agree that advancing to the final short-changes the cacher (and honestly the CO), but it doesn't mean that they didn't find a CO's intended final cache. You are blurring the lines between caching etiquette and the posted guidelines of finding a cache, IMO. Personally, I enjoyed many ALR's and performed 2 caches with ALR's yesterday and will likely still do the majority of them because it adds to my caching experience. I just don't see where you graft that you have the power to delete a find simply because stages were skipped.

If someone accidentally stumbled on my final stage of a multi and signed it, I would welcome him to geocaching and tell him he could log a find. If someone bypasses the stages and goes right to the final stage on purpose, then I would delete it. They didn't find it in the way I wanted them to. That used to be a right, and I never knew that just signing the log was the only thing needed for these caches. Times have changed. But this is all up to the owner, and most people used to respect it. Now, some geocachers feel the only need is to sign the log and move on. Times have indeed changed. This is a geocache, right? Something hidden somewhere that requires only a log book to sign inside a container for someone to find with their GPSr? I think we can agree that someone who skips stages misses out on the CO's intended experience, but it unfortunately does not take away from their find as deleting someone's log as you mention, would infer to the finder (newbie or veteran). I'm not sure I've seen anywhere in the guidelines that a person is required to "find a cache the way the CO wants them to" or be subject to log deletion on a Multi or Mystery cache. Perhaps I'm wrong since I've only been doing this for slightly over a year?

Based on what? The fact that the person/team found the cache in a manner that was not intended by the CO does not take away from the fact that they still found the cache. It's unfortunate, but it happens.

By the way, the stuff in bold are my replies. I did it that way to simplify posting stuff here, for obvious reasons(I hope that they are obvious). I believe the answer to all these questions is actually: No, you shouldn't delete the found logs. At the end of the day, if the person has actually found the cache and signed the log, you would have no reasonable grounds to deny the find in any of these given scenarios, IMO. The fact that the finder broke local laws, caused damage, found a more resourceful/reasonable way to retrieve the cache or was able to up the difficulty by finding a "night cache" during the daylight hours is incidental to the fact that they still found the cache container and signed the logbook. Groundspeak is not here to police those who choose to ignore laws. They provide this service to facilitate our hobby and make every attempt, through their volunteers, to help ensure that caches do not intentionally seek to break any laws.