68-eldo
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Posts posted by 68-eldo
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I would like to post a benchmark entry at the geocache.com site for the following marker I found, but I don't know the exact GPS coordinates and I can't seem to find a map that would give them to me for this particular survey. It is 10 miles outside of Palm Springs, CA and quite off the beaten path. I am a complete newbie here and would appreciate any help you folks may have to offer.
Check out this web site. It will give you a Lat. Lon. for the center of the section if you put in the State/Meridian, township, range, and section.
It provided the following info and more for the above mark:
Latitude/Longitude 33.7231°N, 116.5174°W ( 33°, 43', 23.0" N; 116°, 31', 2.8" W )
The legal description is: California, San Bernardino Meridian T5S,R4E,sec24
UTM zone 11 (X,Y) 544708 , 3731556
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68-eldo
FYI, I can't get any of the links to work now.
Apparently the owner of the web site has not paid his bill for hosting. The domain name is paid until Dec. 3, 2007. I hope he pays. It was a good web site.
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The shipyard where I worked (also a Civil Service organization) had a “holiday shutdown”. It was designed as a cost cutting program. We were closed for all but highly important work from Christmas Eve through New Years Day. Maybe NGS has adopted something similar.
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I've found this bottle and earthenware cone situation curious also. Unfortunately surveyors can't find bottles and earthenware cones with a metal detector. Of course back, then no one would've predicted a metal detector technology. The curious thing to me is how was anyone expected to recover these markers for use long ago? It seems that one would essentially have to re-do the survey in order to just find the place to dig! Could it be that these bottle and cone markers were never really expected to be recovered and were just intermediate points that had to be made to connect primary stations?
From somewhere in the far corners of my memory I seem to get the impression that property corners were marked with rock cairns. I would imagine that surveyors would use a cairn as a surface mark. But that is a guess on my part.
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I agree that there is no significant harm and also definitely agree that it does give you some idea as to the accuracy of your own GPS receiver.
On the other hand, I think that such a reading is not useful log information, including it in a log would amount to pointless clutter, and most importantly, it would just be misinformation compared to the adjusted coordinates.
Handheld (GPSr) coordinates for a location-scaled mark are somewhat useful and the NGS has indicated (I forget where) that it is considering putting fields for that on its mark recovery form. I have no doubt that they would not allow/accept input of coordinates for location-adjusted marks if they did that.
OK, I’ll go along with that. I agree logging the GPSr coordinates of a location adjusted mark in the NGS database is needless clutter. GC.COM is another story.
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If the benchmark is location-scaled, then if you like, you can post the coordinates of it that you read from your GPS receiver when you find it. Don't do this for location-adjusted marks.
I'm curious as to why you say don’t do this for adjusted marks. I understand some people would consider it a waste of time because the hand held accuracy is lower than the accuracy of the posted coordinates. But I can’t see any harm and in a sense it checks the accuracy of your GPSr.
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I'm a relative newbie to benchmarking, but based on what I've seen in the Maptech TNPro program, I think the majority of USGS benchmarks are included. It may vary depending on geographic region, but below is a screenshot from a map in south Texas where all BM symbols correspond to NGS entries, which are shown by the red triangles. You can click each red triangle in the software to see the datasheet entry in the NGS database.
You're fortunate. Hawaii is littered with little Xes and dotted triangles and squares, but I've found very few in the databases. :/ I'm finding plenty of other anonymous bolts, pins, pipes and stakes stuck all over the place in the lava, as well. I'm always trying to dig up the history of these things.
Are you talking about Xs on the Topo maps or on the ground?
Survey crews on Oahu seem to make a lot of chiseled crosses on sidewalks or in the road for their construction project. I doubt you would find any information on these except in the plans of that project.
I find most of the Xs on the topo maps correspond with an NGS benchmark and the triangles with triangulation stations. Which is what I would expect.
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Ooooooo...so THAT's what "Baseline" in Boulder is all about. I lived there a few years and never heard about it being the border between Kansas and Nebraska territories.
It’s interesting how many initial points are near the intersection of Baseline and Meridian Road.
I was born in Boulder. I also wondered about the name of Baseline Road.
I have a KML file for Google Earth posted here that shows all the Initial Points. You maybe able to “save as” or you may have to select all, copy and paste into notepad than save as a KML file.
Corrections and updates welcome.
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Hawaiian coins? Are these souvenir items or legal tender? Either way, could you post a photo?
-ArtMan-
I can guarantee these would not be legal tender. Hawaii has used American money since the overthrow of the monarchy in 1893.
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Hmmm….I checked my file two different ways and did not find a point that had a web page on Principal Meridian Project that was not in the Google Earth file. I checked the Wind River Meridian and the web link was on my file and on my web page file. If you can point out any that are missing a link I would appreciate it.
I should also point out that the coordinates have not been verified by me and I am pretty sure that some are not very accurate. Willamette for example seems to be off by about 0.2 miles. It shows up in a plowed field between two houses. I would appreciate any updates on these points.
68,
The reason I did not see the Wind River Meridian, is because the coordinate on the PM Project page is wrong and you used that; it puts it in Montana and not Wyoming where I was looking.
WGS84 coords are: N43 00' 41.0"
W108 48' 51.6"
from my visit.
CallawayMT
Now that was a significant error. Thanks for the correction.
That page is the only source I know of for coordinates. If anybody has a better (as in more accurate) let me know.
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Hmmm….I checked my file two different ways and did not find a point that had a web page on Principal Meridian Project that was not in the Google Earth file. I checked the Wind River Meridian and the web link was on my file and on my web page file. If you can point out any that are missing a link I would appreciate it.
I should also point out that the coordinates have not been verified by me and I am pretty sure that some are not very accurate. Willamette for example seems to be off by about 0.2 miles. It shows up in a plowed field between two houses. I would appreciate any updates on these points.
Wind River is there for me. I was sure that San Bernadino didn't have a link. That is the one I checked and was referring to....but it is there plain as day now so I must have mis-remembered.
Sorry if I caused you unnecessary work.
The Willamette Meridian gets a lot of geocacher traffic so the geocaching page might have more accurate coordinates for your file. Willamette Meridian While scanning the logs I saw three that left hand held GPSr coordinates in there logs. There might be photos in the gallery with GPSr units as well. I didn't check those.
PID for that one is RD3152 and the coordinates are N 45° 31.170 W 122° 44.631 if anybody wants to correct their copy. I will update my webpage.
Thanks for the input.
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Hmmm….I checked my file two different ways and did not find a point that had a web page on Principal Meridian Project that was not in the Google Earth file. I checked the Wind River Meridian and the web link was on my file and on my web page file. If you can point out any that are missing a link I would appreciate it.
I should also point out that the coordinates have not been verified by me and I am pretty sure that some are not very accurate. Willamette for example seems to be off by about 0.2 miles. It shows up in a plowed field between two houses. I would appreciate any updates on these points.
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I am sure there used to be a benchmark right on the sidewalk at the corner of Long Street and Riley Rd on FT Bragg NC but I couldn't find it today. I only found the concrete base where I think it used to be. I am a brand new geocacher and only noted it in passing a few months ago so I didn't pay much attention to it when I first saw it. Is there anyone here that is on FT Bragg and knows of the mark I am describing?
OK I found the intersection of Longstreet Rd. and Riley Rd. I did a search on geocaching.com and found the nearest “benchmark” is an intersection station, not a disk. So most likely the mark you are looking for is not on the NGS data base and therefore not in the geocaching.com database either. There are many marks placed by private surveying companies, city and state governments, as well as federal agencies that are never entered into the NGS database.
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If anybody is interested I have posed the KML file for the Initial Points here.
You will have to copy and paste into notepad and save as a KML file. Then you can open the file in Google Earth.
Let me know how it works out for you.
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I got that 100 meter tape from Harbor Freight and used it once--the ring on the end of the tape is plastic and snapped the first time I used it, which made it completely useless for me as I usually jam a spike in the ground through the end hole of the tape so I can run a measurement. I guess I could try to fix it somehow but I just haven't bothered. It is on the floor of my car where I tossed it the day it broke. Also, even if the ring HADN'T broken I think it would have a tendency to slip off the spike unless the spike was angled backward to prevent it.
Now I just do what I did before I had a metric tape--pace off meters or convert them using the calculator on my Garmin (I multiply meters by 3 to get feet, then use that value as inches and add it to my feet value, since a meter is about 3 feet 3 inches. This seems accurate enough for benchmark work. So if a measurement is 14 meters I end up with 42 feet plus 42 inches, which is 45 feet 6 inches. I guess I could memorize the conversion factor, but I stink at that sort of thing and my technique works fine).
Thanks for the feedback about the Harbor Freight tape. Some of their stuff is good but some is junk. It looks like this tape is in the latter category. I wont direct people to that tape anymore. I think this is the tape I bought. It works well but like I say it has feet and inches on one side and feet and tenths of feet on the other. The two sides are different color so you are more likely to notice if you are on the wrong side of the tape. But it does not have metric on it. I carry a project calculator by Craftsman in the truck that does the metric to SAE conversion. The calculator cost $14 on sale.
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I have a 100' steel tape (a Stanley) which is OK but I would like to get something with both metric and english units. The only thing I found was a 10'/3M tape which is of course too short.
I was thinking of a surveyors supply house but then I realized they probably don't even use tapes anymore. Everything is electronic, lasers, etc.
Any ideas of where to look?
I bought a 300 ft tape at Lowes for less than $30, but it has feet and inches on one side and feet and tenths on the other. I see Harbor Freight has a 330 Ft SAE and Metric tape for $20. I have not used it or even seen one so I cant say how good it is.
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Here's a map of the Principle Meridians and Baselines of the PLSS
I got seriously side tracked with that web site. I went to the home page to search for a list of the initial points with lat lon thinking it might be a neat thing to add to Google Earth and/or GSAK. But I got started looking up land patients of my ancestors. I got interesting results. I recommend it for those that might be interested in their family history.
I never found the list of initial points.
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In San Antonio, two tourists were leaving the Alamo, after taking the tour. One of them was overheard saying, "It was very impressive, but I don't know why they put it downtown, where there is no parking."[/i]
Tourist standing on the beach at Waikiki ask the life guard "What’s the elevation around here?". Don't need a surveyor to figure that one out.
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I am a Marine Stationed on Camp Pendleton, and was just introduced to the sport of geocaching. I am loving it. For some reason, I get more satisfaction from locating benchmarks. Has anyone ever tried to find benchmarks on a military base? There seems to be a few located along the old Sante Fe railway that runs through Pendleton.
One of my first benchmark recoveries was TU1419. If you go to the google satellite view you will see why cameras were not allowed. In this area the marines are authorized to use lethal force. But as a 34 year employee there I knew what I could do and what I could not.
I no longer have my CAC card so I won’t be doing much more military bases unless I do a visit request. It’s vary unlikely I will be able to go back to this specific area but I may be able to do less sensitive areas on some of the other bases around here.
If you don’t violate any rules (especially security rules) there should be no problem recovering benchmarks on a military base.
By the way, camera phones are also not allowed. On this base if they found you with a camera phone they would confiscate the phone and review the pictures on the phone. If there were no pictures of the base on the phone they would let you have the phone back with a warning. If they found pictures of the base the phone would be destroyed with a large hammer. No word on what they would do to you in that case.
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I've never had text removed from my logs. Don't know what happened with your second one with just the blank lines. This would indicate that you had carriage returns in the text box.
And no, you don't need put "Found in Good Condition" because above the text description, the history shows it was found in condition = good.
Your right it is up above all the descriptions in the history section.
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On the NGS submission page, you will check a box for GOOD / POOR / NOT FOUND so those words are redundant.
While that is true it is my experience if you put any text in the text box the GOOD / POOR / NOT FOUND is deleted. For example when I submitted TU1416 my intention was to report it as good with the additional information about the name change of the street. However what came out was “STATION RECOVERY (2003) TU1416 RECOVERY NOTE BY GEOCACHING 2003 (GFH) AVENUE D HAS BEEN RENAMED PAUL HAMILTON AVENUE.” And the words “RECOVERED IN GOOD CONDITION” was not put into the text. It leaves the impression that I was only submitting the information on the name change and was not making any report on the condition of the mark.
Then there is TU0448. I’m not sure what happened there. All that came out was “STATION RECOVERY (2003) TU0448 RECOVERY NOTE BY GEOCACHING 2003 (GFH).” Notice there is no recovery condition.
As a result the reports did not come out as nice as I would have liked. So my future reports will contain everything including the condition.
Has anyone else had this problem?
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There is one thing you could do which might clinch it. Write to the highway department and/or to the local surveyors professional association and ask if there are any records available for when the highwqay was widened. You would be surprised. I recall in discussion of the "Willamette Stone" (see This thread) one of the posters (CallawayMT) had actually corresponded with the surveyor who installed the disk which replaced the stone and in another case an acquaintance of mine corresponded with the IBC surveyor who uncovered and reburied the "Crown Monument" (see QH0502). These folks are out there and you just might be able to find them.
I have thought of that. As I mentioned above I would like to find the keeper of the State data base so I can look at the data sheets for these marks.
I was looking at the bridges along the new section of Fort Weaver Road to see if any had dates on them. I think they were all obliterated by the installation of metal guard rails attached to them.
I don’t think the local surveyors use the NGS data base but use the State data sheets instead. It probably meets their needs better as it may show more local marks and may have more up to date information. I know I’ve seen evidence of use on marks that are not in the NGS database. But thats only my impression.
I found there is a survey’s supply store near my house. I went up there and talked to the guy in back that was working on the instruments for over an hour about Geocaching and benchmark hunting, the Iraq war, Gun Fire control for Navy ships, local Coast Artillery forts and more. End result he did not know that much about benchmarks or how to get information about them. Maybe I need to snag customers coming in the door.
I have not had a lot of time for benchmark hunting but I just declared Friday as benchmark day (we’ll see how long that last). So maybe I can make some progress in these things we’re talking about here.
Thanks for all the feedback.
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68-eldo
You found the disk described by being willing to accept the fact that the original description may have contained errors. Good Job!! As ArtMan has pointed out, unless the monument and its base have been moved, (can you offer any conjecture on that possibility?), the elevation of the mark is probably good.
Holtie22
After rereading my original post I see I never actually said I believe the historical monument was moved. But that is in fact what I believe. The monument was originally on the northeast side of the now abandoned fragment of Fort Weaver Road located 53 feet from power pole 140 and faced the road (southwest). The monument is now located on the southwest side of the new road and faces northeast and is more that 600 feet from the power pole. So yes I believe the monument was moved to be close to and visible from the new road.
I believe this mark is dangerous because it can be found by just using a part of the to reach information. I found it and another geocacher came close to finding it all because we knew about the historical marker. A surveyor could do the same thing and not realize the elevation data is no longer valid.
I did notice that State DOT did not find the mark. But then they did not find TU0631 after I posted new information that helped a couple of Geocachers find it.
I would like to find who maintains the data base for the State Survey markers. I would like to report my finds to them and maybe look for marks not on the NGS database. I have found at least two SS markers not on the NGS data base.
Thanks for all the comments. Right now I am inclined to report this as found poor with my reasons for thinking it has been moved. All these comments will help me refine my report. Thanks.
A milestone, and the New Year just got started.
in Benchmarking
Posted
One thing I am curious about is how does this receiver get that kind of accuracy when the antenna is 5 feet or more above the point being measured? If the antenna is not precisely above the mark then the measured point would be wrong.
Also I believe the length of the pole would also be important to the calculations.