HopsMaltYeast

Your work was devalued by the owner if they let a bad log stand. Sort of like giving your all at work and your boss steals your work as their own. Yeah you enjoyed doing the work and maybe your work wasn't devalued, but you were even if you don't see it. Quit geocaching? No plans there. Fix the problem? Like I said. Delete false logs when you encounter them. It's not rocket science. I think it's fair to make it easy for people to do the right thing. Sometimes that makes it easy for people to do the wrong thing. Such is life. Answer this question. What are you telling your honest finders if you allow all finds regardless of whether or not they found the cache? I have no idea. Too vague. Do I know that any of the claimed finds are false in your scenario? I think I would leave it to the honest finders to find value in their find and experience and I don't they would care what I was or was not telling them, because they would already have found the cache, yes? So why would they care what I was telling them? They already had the experience

Let me get this straight. In order for something to be wrong, it needs to effect you? Wow, that's extremely narcissistic. That comment is so off the mark and unrelated that it does not merit response. I did not even talk about what is right or wrong. What is right or wrong is not the subject of the OP.

Your work was devalued by the owner if they let a bad log stand. Sort of like giving your all at work and your boss steals your work as their own. Yeah you enjoyed doing the work and maybe your work wasn't devalued, but you were even if you don't see it. Quit geocaching? No plans there. Fix the problem? Like I said. Delete false logs when you encounter them. It's not rocket science. I think it's fair to make it easy for people to do the right thing. Sometimes that makes it easy for people to do the wrong thing. Such is life. Answer this question. What are you telling your honest finders if you allow all finds regardless of whether or not they found the cache? This is all completely either wrong or irrelevant to me. You are dodging the easy questions because you cannot answer them in a way that fits your allegations. You are swinging out in free air. You do not know how many false logs are out there. You have not given one concrete example of how a false log has hurt your integrity or degraded you or degrade the "sport" (I think it is a hobby or pastime). I enjoyed finding the cache or trying to find it regardless of the other logged or not logged finds or dnf's. I spent some time in the open air, hopefully with friends and family. I don't care if you lied about finding it. I assume you told the truth unless there is evidence to the contrary. If my boss stole my work it might or might not affect my earning power, my pay, my career and my family's security. It devalues him for lying. It does not devalue me, even if it cost me some praise or a raise. Completely irrelevant to the hobby of GeoCaching. (Who knows, it might help my pay if he gives me a big raise to keep me from outing him - that is another ethical thread outside of GeoCaching.) There is no way a false log has ever hurt my integrity, self-esteem, income potential, reputation or standing in the community. I have never put GeoCaching finds on my annual performance review at work as evidence that I deserve a raise. You have not demonstrated one concrete example of how the sport is degraded other than saying cheating is always bad. You have not proposed one concrete suggestion beyond the current guidelines to prevent bad logging practice. How have false logs, if they exist, degrade you, impact your integrity or hurt you? I understand that your sensibilities are insulted if there is one lie or falsehood out there anywhere in the universe, but how does it really affect you in your life? Are false logging practice worse today than the day you started? (Please provide statistics or other hard evidence to support your claim) Is Geocaching going to fail because of false logs?

They insult the integrity of all cachers who take time to do it right. More so if they are allowed to stand. How many doesn't matter. If one false long is wrong, they are all wrong. And you jumped over all the "before that stuff" - how many false logs are there? How do they degrade you? I'll repeat. How many doesn't matter. False longs degrade the honest logs of the people who did it right. Or reversing it allowing false logs is slap in the face to all people who logged right. It devalues their hard work. ONE CACHE AT A TIME. There you go. I really don't think how many makes one whit of difference. Each and every false log should not exist. That is patently false. I enjoyed all my finds before I saw this thread, before folks raised the issue of false logs. I enjoy them just as much today. My "work" is not devalued. I am not degraded. My enjoyment of the hunt is the same regardless of what you or anyone else logged. So, are you going to quit GeoCaching because it is corrupt, devalued and perhaps worthless? Why would you work hard for something you now define as perhaps worthless? How do you propose to make it uncorrupt, completely valued and worthwhile? Are you saying it is not worthwhile to you now? What percentage less worthwhile is it today compared to say, you first 2 months of participation? Would one false log in Germany really devalue your experience?

They insult the integrity of all cachers who take time to do it right. More so if they are allowed to stand. How many doesn't matter. If one false long is wrong, they are all wrong. Who gave you authority to determine what insults the integrity of all cachers? And you jumped over all the "before that stuff" - how many false logs are there? What method have you used? How do they degrade you at whatever level?

They insult the integrity of all cachers who take time to do it right. More so if they are allowed to stand. How many doesn't matter. If one false long is wrong, they are all wrong. That is patently false. If you log a false find it does not affect my integrity one iota. It does not insult me. Suppose you are correct - even one false log insults your integrity - what do you propose? Are you going to quit GeoCaching on principle - it is corrupt and insulting? How do you propose to prevent even one false log?

Hundreds of post later - Please define how false logging has gotten ridiculous? 10% of logged finds are false? 1%? 0.001%? 1 false log ever in the history of logging? How many false logs have you seen? Do you have hard evidence to support that or is it opinion? What percentage of logs are false? What methodology have you used to determine that percentage and has it been validated? If you do not propose adherence to a strict set of rules, then how do you think you will control false logs to a level that you consider to be less than ridiculous and non-degrading to GeoCaching? After that, mayhaps you can address the real issue, does any of that meet KBI's question about how that has degraded you, GeoCaching or me?

Judging from the number of times you've addressed this subject, your life is so blissful, worry-free and problem free that you have a need to be concerned about those who have a need to be concerned about the geek in dirty PJ’s in his mom’s basement falsely logging cache finds. touche Oh, and the next time your Mom comes down to the basement with clean jammies and to pick up the empty Cheetos bags tell her I sad hello. ;-)

Judging from the number of times you've addressed this subject, your life is so blissful, worry-free and problem free that you have a need to be concerned about those who have a need to be concerned about the geek in dirty PJ’s in his mom’s basement falsely logging cache finds. touche

They say you can easily and quickly make a small fortune in antique or classic car restoration. All you have to do is start with huge fortune.

Placing a magnetic key box on a guard rail on a far corner of a big box discount store without explicit permission hurts the universe or the integrity of the sport, how? As Voltaire said, “Common sense is not common.” And as Will Rogers said, “It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so”. Someone on another thread similar to this one seemed to be either trolling to get someone to say “ignore the rules” or they were completely incapable of independent thought and reasoning. I honestly can’t figure out how some people get from the front door to the mailbox and back unsupervised. What I have learned here that ain’t so: The NPS policy bans GeoCaching. (Wrong, NPS policy neither explicitly permits nor explicitly prohibits GeoCaching.) Each Park supervisor must decide the issue while following NPS rules. The NPS rules prohibit abandoning property on their lands, littering and destroying or damaging environmental/cultural/archeological sensitive sites. The NPS considers property abandoned if it is left for 24 hours without a permit. So, you can leave a physical GeoCache if you obtain a permit to leave it for more than 24 hours. So you can use virtual caches without obtaining explicit permission if they do not constitute a hazard to the environmental/cultural/archeological sensitivity of the sites. ~~~~~ I have to obtain explicit permission for any cache on any public land. Wrong. The park in my neighborhood has multipurpose recreation opportunities. There are baseball fields, gardens, a library, meadows, swings/slidingboards/merry-go-rounds/tetter-totters, nature areas and a fitness circuit. Folks go to the park to use or enjoy those features. Sometimes they also engage in Easter egg hunts, picnics, bird watching, jogging, golf balls chipping, kite flying, napping, stargazing, nature painting, book reading, photography and myriad other recreational and legal activities – including, “Gasp”, Frisbee. None of these activities require explicit permission and neither does GeoCaching. GeoCaching is not inherently more damaging than any of those activities. However, you cannot drive golf balls in the gardens, meadow or on the baseball field during a baseball game. You cannot picnic on the outfield of the baseball field during a game. You cannot fly a kite or play volleyball inside the library. Common sense says you should not place an Ammo Can GeoCache under the steps of the library or next to the swing set in the playground area. Common sense says you can place a GeoCache in a hedge in the nature area or just off the jogging trail without explicit permission. Why do so many folks require a constrictive, binding, every-contingency possible policy? Get a brain. Or stay in you parent’s basement and never have to think or make a decision. Even if you get explicit permission, if you place a cache such that it results in damage to sensitive environmental, cultural or archaeological sites, then you have done wrong. It ain’t rocket science.

I am still trying to grasp why false logging could degrade or destroy GeoCaching. I understand that it is lying, cheating and wrong. I understand and agree that some false logs may delay a cache owner from performing maintenance checks. This seems to be a valid concern, but does not rise to the level of destroying the sport. And besides, the cache would be missing or damaged with or without the false log. But, that was not part of the OP hypothesis or concern. The concern seemed to be with the damage done by false high numbers, logging virtual caches from home or logging a find when you just drive by or having someone else sign a log for you. I cannot see how that hurts the “sport” or me. This is a recreational activity. No national standings or awards are invloved. Falsely claiming to have hidden a cache – I get how that hurts the sport and me. That would be a serious issue. Falsifying golf scores I sort of get; it is degrading to the sport – it effects handicaps and course or club standings, but it does not effect my enjoyment of a day on the links on a given day. If there is a competition on a given day/week/month or in a given area for a club or group I can see that lying about finds would affect the outcome of that particular competition. But, in general, the idea that someone out there in virtual GeoCache computer land has logged 558 caches from their stinky basement computer room wearing grungy pajamas and having Cheeto crumbs on their lips without leaving home does not affect the sport or me one iota. I am extremely thankful for the clever caches that I have found. I am extremely thankful for the caches that I have looked for that brought me to beautiful or interesting sites that I would probably have never visited without GeoCaching. I want to thank the Geocachers that went to the trouble of placing those caches. I feel a little sorry for that guy in his basement that missed out on the experiences I enjoyed, but I do not obsess on it. I hope he is happy in his world. I am envious of the folks whose lives are so blissful, worry-free and problem free that they need to be concerned about the geek in dirty PJ’s in his mom’s basement falsely logging cache finds. Me? Worrying about whether it is OK to rotate radial tires from the left side to the right side of my car or should I just go front to back on the same side is at least 200 steps above concern over some pathetic cheater logging GeoCache finds. Note: I agree that false logs are lying and wrong. When I start placing caches I will not do a systematic audit of the paper logs to the online logs. If I notice an obvious false online log I will delete it.

I think it is almost a 100% certainty that a random stranger approaching any Wal-Mart store manger with a request for permission to play frisbee in the parking lot would be told "No." Anyone playing frisbee in the high car and shopper traffic area near the front door would be told to leave if they stayed more than a few minutes. Someone playing frisbee way out in a quiet corner of the parking lot would probably not draw attention or concern. I would much prefer someone to be GeoCaching on my property than playing frisbee. When one of your hypothetical frisbee players knocks my hypothetical Granny off of her walker in the parking lot someone is going to get sued. A rule of thumb is just that - a guideline, a starting point in the thinking process. You still have to make a decision while considering the repercussions of your actions.

Dude, what part of "it looks like there is a certain nudge-nudge-wink-wink dynamic as regards the permission thing, which is fine by me" are you missing? I'm cool with it! Are you daft? Where does wink nudge come into this? Dude, the first rule of nudge-nudge-wink-wink... Look, if everybody is placing caches without permission, either implied or explicit, THAT IS FINE BY ME. After the phone calls I've had over the last few days, you've convinced me. I think we just crossed the line between daft and delusional. Everybody is not placing caches without permission. I for one have not phoned you nor would I want to. I am out of this one.

Dude, what part of "it looks like there is a certain nudge-nudge-wink-wink dynamic as regards the permission thing, which is fine by me" are you missing? I'm cool with it! Are you daft? Where does wink nudge come into this? No one said break the rules. No one said nudge wink Are you daft? Follow the rules. You quoted them. Follow them. Quit trolling.

Vickers, I say again, post any evidence that anyone here posted specifically that you should break the rules. It did not happen. Read the rules. Follow the rules. Move on. Are you daft? Read the rules. You keep quoting the rules and say you are asking for clarification. Read the rules. Follow the rules. Move on and quit trolling. Quit trolling. Clear enough?

I am trying to follow geocaching.com policy (see link above). That people are basically advising against that, on a forum *provided* by geocaching.com, is pretty breathtaking. Your lack of rigor and attention to facts is breathtaking to me. I have no idea about the emails you have received but a quick review of this threads shows absolutely zero evidence that anyone advocates breaking GeoCaching rules. You say folks have advised to break the rules. I am not calling you a liar, but I have not seen any evidence to support your premise. I invite you to post evidence to the contrary. What I have seen is that Vickers has posted 20 times to this thread. Folks saying to following the rules posted 25 times. Folks saying to break the rules posted zero times. Folks posting off topic posted 63 times. Once again, I think you are trolling.

They may have been granted permission originally, but as I stated in the OP, their stance is now "We don't allow geocaches in our park." Are you a troll? This early post seems to be at odds with your later posts. If they don't allow geocaches then you should follow their rules and GeoCaching rules and not place a cache on their land. How hard is that to understand? (Of course we now know you didn't ask permission before posting, you weren't denied permission and there weren't other caches on that park's land.) You later state that there are no previous caches on the site you want to place a cache on. Bermuda Triangle - a bs contrived goofy argument with no basis in fact - and impossible to debate in scientific and factual terms. A canard.

Flawed logic front to back. I can poop in my bathroom. I cannot poop in the aisle of a supermarket. I can hike on the Appalachian Trail, but I cannot cross switchbacks or bushwhack with impunity on sensitive lands (like the AT). I can drag race on a sanctioned track. I cannot drag race on Main Street. I can fish with a license where states permit fishing. I cannot fish in protected areas. I can drive a motorboat. I cannot drive a motorboat across delicate salt flats and ruin the eco-system. I can hike. I cannot walk over delicate and protected sand dunes and cause damage that will take decades for nature to repair. I can hunt where it is not prohibited. I cannot take my M1 Garande and shoot squirrels in my backyard. I can GeoCache where is it s not prohibited. I cannot place a GeoCache in ecological, environmental or archeological sensitive areas. It ain’t rocket science. It is just GeoCommonSense.

When you DO meet Paint, if he starts talking about albino rhinos, just walk away. Taken under advisement - I do hope to met him soon.

the title of this thread: You ask permission, it's denied...but there are caches there already., Does that mean the previous ones are illegal? Then we find the original poster has not actually asked permission at the time of the original post. Then we find there are not existing caches in the park. My cat's breath smells like cat food - is that significant?

I do hope you see the irony... Back on topic: I was on the phone for a while with the regional director, and she seemed pretty receptive to the idea of geocaching. She took a lot of notes during our conversation, and is going to talk it over with another guy who is the regional facilities director. It looks like I am going to be able to meet with her (and maybe him) with an example of a cache container, and hopefully answer all of their question satisfactorily. FTR, this particular park does not have any previous caches. What the heck is your agenda and purpose for posting? This is like the Bermuda Triangle of GeoCaching. The OP addressed the problem of placing a new GeoCache in a park and "what if" you got refused permission what should you do about existing caches. Then you reference an NPS policy posting (National Park Service). Now you are saying it is a south county park and there are no existing GeoCaches in the site you are interested in. So what the heck is your dilemma? What the heck is your point and do you have one? If you think you don't need permission then place the dang cache. If you think the park requires permission then get permission or place the dang cache somewhere legal. It ain't too dang tough a question.

I think I have the answer to satisfy everyone on this issue. A simple proposal of Hops Rules: No GeoCache find shall be valid unless the following requirements are met: Each GeoCache shall be equipped with a patented and certified HopsMaltYeast GeoCacheBioMetricRetinaScanner™® and a HopsMaltYeast GeoCacheDNA’cordersheet®. Retina scans, as individual as finger prints, will prevent rabid number grabbing cachers from severing a thumb for another cacher to carry to a cache to place a thumb print on a log. If they pluck out an eye it will soon collapse and be unreadable by the patented HopsMaltYeast GeoCacheBioMetricRetinaScanner™® Before registration to GeoCaching is completed and before any logging of cache finds are allowed, each GeoCacher shall submit a DNA and retina scan sample to a HopsMaltYeast Validation Center™. In order for a cache find to be validated the finder must successfully use the HopsMaltYeast GeoCacheBioMetricRetinaScanner®™ to record an image of his/her retina at the cache site and use a lancet to extract a drop of blood to leave a DNA sample on the HopsMaltYeast GeoCacheDNA’cordersheet®©™ Each GeoCache owner shall permanently attach a HopsMaltYeastSat-lite tracker™ device to each Cache container to prevent scurrilous and illegal movement of said cache containers to a group logging area. This devise can detect if a cache is moved from its designated spot – monitored by HopsMaltYeast GeoCache Monitoring Systems ™® for a nominal annual maintenance fee to keep the cache valid and certified. Each GeoCache owner shall at least weekly visit each cache and submit the retina and DNA data to a HopsMaltYeast Data center subject to the nominal maintenance fee. Pricing schedule: HopsMaltYeast GeoCacheBioMetricRetinaScanner™® $10,000.00 HopsMaltYeast GeoCacheDNA’cordersheet®. $10,000.00 HopsMaltYeastSat-lite tracker™ $10,000.00 Processing fee for samples to HopsMaltYeast Validation Center™. $ 500.00 Best regards, HopsMaltYeast Future first commissioner of Olympic GeoCaching International

Thanks GeoWizard - that was terrific. And thanks to the folks that shot the documentary Saw 2 well known GeoCachers from my area - Northeast Florida GeoCachers Association PaintFiction and IceCreamMan. About every 4th cache I have found was placed by one of these guys - nearly 100% of the logs I have found where signed by those guys - never seen them in person, yet.

To clarify: I'm presupposing this question would be posed AFTER I was denied permission for my cache. In that case, just give 'em name, rank (number of finds), and geocaching userid. (regarding geotrails... deer leave trails in the parks. I say get rid of the deer!) My cat's breath smells like cat food.