woodsters

First of all welcome Dacflyer.... Secondly we (wife and I) were talking about how there are no Waffle Houses or Huddle Houses up here in Massachusetts. There are plenty of Donut places (every corner), except Krispy Kreme which have made a presence in Boston now and was a big hit. I think the Waffle Houses would be just as big of a hit too....

It won't make people make their caches better. Plus the listing of a rating publically would cause havoc. If one were implemented it would have to voluntary. People already raised cain about having stats and not wanting to be involved. I think this would go over even worse.

Likely answer from a RAT....lmao just kidding with ya, couldn't help it...

I agree, plus you can't stop people from cheating. The cheaters are going to keep it that way...lol Actually are they cheating? There really aren't any rules or regulation to it, so the only cheating one could really do is place a cache on NPS land.

Yes Now figure out which question that answer goes to. lol I think it depends on the person and should really rely on whether or not if htey feel they are cheating. Personally I don't like any of it. It's all cheating to me. I have no problem with a person needing more clues after searching for a cache, but to get the extra bit or help first I don't care for. There is one thing on cheating that is really my pet peeve. I know a lot of people do it and feel it's ok, but I don't like it when someone logs a find on a virtual before getting a response from the owner. I think they should wait a significant amount of time for a reply and then if no answer then they log it. I also think that it's the owners responsibility to respond to the emails. I think it should be a requirement and falls under properly maintaining a cache.

I echo Bassoon and Sparky. Everywhere I've been, you were supposed to be on school grounds for official business only. Did it happen? No. I've taken the kids to school playgrounds on the weekends back in Georgia. But technically, the BOE Police or even the Sheriff's dept would stop me if they saw me on the property (probably not so much if I was on the playground with my kids). Most schools nowadays keep the doors locked during school hours anyway. That should tell pretty much how tight they are in some places about school security. And lets face it, if you are a male and are near a school during the hours and are snooping around, you are suspicious and probably will be met with an officer or deputy.

Great post Teamx40. I was just thinking that weather could be a big factor as well. If it's terrible weather when your out caching, it may give a difference appearance and experience than at other times. Also depends on the type of day you are having too I imagine. Another thing, someone could of left the cache out in the opne for instance and one might not think it was a good cache because it was out in the open or not rehidden back into it's appropriate place. A lot of factors could come into play to sway peoples minds one way or the other for an overall rating. Even the difficulty and terrain ratings we use are somewhat subjective. But for those who would like their own caches rated and are willing to bite the bullet if they get bad reviews, then I guess the system from keenpeople would be ideal for them. I just went to one of Doc Deans cache pages and I could vote for the cache whether or not I had not logged a find. So those ratings need to be taken with a grain of salt. One could easily go and manipulate the ratings to include the owner. Didn't vote, but I'm not sure if I could go and vote more than once. If one could then that would mess it up even more.

I agree with BigRedMed. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. A rating system on them would be subjective. If there was one, then you would need to rate several different elements for each cache and then it would be hard to get an overall rating. I could see more of a system where the caches are listed as historic, artistic, and etc. That way people who are interested in different types of things around could sort them and go after them. But the best way to figure out if a cache is halfway decent for the most part is to read the previous cache logs. Sometimes they give some great info as to whether the people enjoyed the cache or area. Sometimes they are lacking any info. I think perhaps better online cache logs would help out others. We (Woodsters) need to work on ours more from now on, even on the TNLN.

Guideline or Law? Well it can't be a law. Laws are passed in legislation. I haven't heard of such on geocaching itself. Perhaps it is incorporated into other laws. In some places it may be against their rules. Sometimes they are posted where it's easily read. Sometimes not. You may have to dig around or ask. Don't assume that because you don't see a big sign that says "No Geocaching" that you have permission. Permission is not granted by lack of mentioning it. Thye may not care one way or the other, but to say I have permission because they don't say it is a wrong way to approach it in my opinion. I would say it falls within the guidelines as Briansnat mentioned. But you have to take those with a grain of salt. There are many things listed in the guidelines. Some thing are enforced like rules, others are there as a "security blanket". That way if they want to they can say it's in the guidelines, although they say the guidelines are not rules. Yep clear as mud. Ideally, we would have permission to do whatever we want. Realistically we can't. Just as Dusty Jacket mentioned, things are tightening down security wise and people are not wanting to to risk anything. Not that a park system would think that you are doing anything bad, but the alarm that would happen to others who come across it. Not everyone understands what we do, just as we don't understand some things they do. You have to admit that a person searching for something gets attention. That's why there are always notes on cache pages about people around, so be discreet. Then add into it someone with a backpack or fanny packand carrying an electronic device. Here they are walking aroudn with this thing flat in the palm of their hand like it's something extremely fragile and following it. Turning this way and that way. Then you duck into the bushes. I guess to the unknown that it could be frightening. And then to add to that, they see us pull out metal ammo boxes. 90% of the tiem they are still the green color or camouflaged. That's boosts the scare factor up a bit. And after all this we still continue to treat it like it's a secret, at least until we are asked. Then we freely share are great hobby with them. At least those places who have jurisdiction over lands can at least be aware of what is going on, so when those things happen it won't be new news to them. I have my opinion on the whole thing. I think it's best to ask permission and I will leave it there. But that is my opinion.

There's a list? No, really? Wow.....Are they chekcing it twice? Finding out who's naughty or nice? Seriously, who cares if there is one. I'm sure there are plenty people who haven't gotten a blip out of their warn meter that is on a "list". Especially me. That's ok, I have a list too.

Haven't done a locationless "yet". Just like other variants of the game, they are wanted and have their place. I do agree, that they should be in perhaps their own section. I even started a "Challenge Caches" section on my site. It's just a place on the forums where you make a challenge and others can post their findings. There are no counts or stats kept. That's up to you. I may be looking at some locationless ones here soon as I'm inching up to #100.

huh?

There's only been a couple instances of DNF with me. Only logged one of those and forgot to log it as a DNf until the owner joked about it in their log. I hadn't had the problem until then so I wasn't used to it. The other one I didn't log as a DNF due to the fact that from previous logs that I wasn't sure if it was going to be one that I wanted to go after due to property issues. I waited a while and while I was doing caches in the area I drove by and saw what I didn't feel comfortable as to passing across private property. I didn't post it as a DNF, but did make a log entry into it. This was also after a couple of emails to the email address on the cache page.

I sure wish there were some parking coordinates or directions to a cache I went after yesterday. Would of saved me about 45 minutes worth of driving around in circles. Even if there was a box to fill out on the form, they could easily put a statement on there as to it was voluntary. And even then, I don't think a bunch of coordinates would ruin it for you. You can always go to the parking coordinates and then decide if you don't want to park there or not. Or you could always ignore them as well in the first place.

i don't look at bringing up ideas in the forums or talking about things as lobbying. Perhaps from time to time TPTB see things they think are good ideas and implement them, but I wouldn't refere any discussion here on the forums as lobbying. By saying that the majority doesn't want is false. How would you know that the majority doesn't want it or think it's a good idea? You are going only after what maybe the majority that have spoken on it want. It's not a scientific poll as Jeremy would say. And just because people don't say anything don't mean they don't agree. That's kind of mob type of attitude about it. Kind of like when the mob threatens (not directly neccessary) others and keeps them quiet. A lot of people are afraid to give an opinion either way, because they are afraid of the backlash, don't want to look associated with one side or the other, or don't care enough either way. As far as "fighting them to the death". Well I think it depends on which side of the cause you are on whether or not it appears that way. I stand up for what I believe in or what I construe as a good idea. I debate the issue. I give rebuttals. If I don't back down or change my way, then I guess I am 'fighting to the death" or "beating a dead horse". The neat thing about the forums is that just as easy that it is for those people who don't respond, topics can be overlooked and not even read....But a person who responds in a posting saying that the person is complaining, beating a dead horse and etc, is no better a person than the person debating. Actually that tells me that they are getting frustrated or wearing down, both a sign of weakness.

One thing you may want to watch out for is security/police. Most colleges have a 24 hr security/police dept. Some school systems have school police departments now. Although many do not have a police officer there 24 hrs a day, they tend to go from school to school checking on things, so even after hours one may stop by. Also some schools have cameras outside as well. You may be a wanted person if a camera picked up your presence the same day that some vandalism or or burglary happened. We have done a cache or two at a school or right behind one. My opinion is they are not good ideas, with the way things are nowadays. Especially for those of you who carry guns and knives and etc while caching.

Ok so we can agree that some people use parking coordinates and like them and some don't. But I don't think an argument of "that's part of the challenge", is a good one in my opinion. My thinking would be if you are going for a challenge and you think telling you were to park is taking away from it, then don't use a GPSr either. Now that would make it even more challenging. Or if you do decide to use your GPSr, don't even look at a map at all. Just punch in the coordintates and drive til lyou get to it. I know some places that the roads are laid out like a grid and it makes it much easier to drive to it like that. But when you are in some areas where the roads turn and twist and elevation changes quickly, then you might prefer a set of coordinates or directions of where to park. It's not always the case and it's easy not to look at the coordinates or the directions, but they are available to those who want them. Just like there are micros, multis, virts, etc for those who want those.

you know, I was going rejuvenate this thread yesterday, but I decided otherwise. Team Og Rof A Klaw, I agree somewhat. I beleive the ability to warn is great. The meters, I really have no opinion either wise on those. I don't think the meters are childish themselves. Perhaps some of the acts that contribute to them appearing are more childish than anything else. One shouldn't even worry or be offended by a little graphic. Consider it a guide. If you don't do anything to attribute the meter, then why worry about it?

Cache Couple, this has nothing to do with placing a cache back home. Back home was an example. My concern was merely for the reasoning. Plain and simple, I think that the current rules on all this are stupid and uneffective. As most have said here, people can and do go around them. So why even have it where they can do it? Especially whne in the long run, it's all not that big of a deal? Get rid of the rules on the whole thing. Don't put any restrictions on caches that are placed a distance away or in places that caches would be considered vacation caches. Deal with each cache individually. Like others stated as well, if there is a problem then other cachers will fix it or take care of it. It's the same thing with "vacation caches" (ugh hate that name). They will get weeded out. Of course people will place caches in areas where they shouldn't. But that happens in caches that aren't considered vacation caches.

I actually don't like the term vacation cache. The meaning is not true. The main problem with these type of caches are the facts posted above. They are placed in areas not allowed, they aren't maintained and etc. But the truth is, not all caches deemed "vacation caches" are like that. Many regular caches are like that as well. There are many caches considered vacation caches that have been in existence for a good while from the discussions I have seen before. Why target caches that people place x amount of miles from their house. First of all, their house location is not really known. Secondly, because they cached in France today, doesn't mean that they can upkeep a cache there. Or just because I live here now and place a cache today, doens't mean I will live here tomorrow. There are rules everywhere put in place. Contrary to belief, I don't see the need in a lot of rules. Many of them are stupid. There's no reason for them to be there becuase they are really not effective. My thoughts I posted and the idea I proposed was not to add more rules, rules, rules. But to work on the reason that other rules are in place. I think that some current rules that are in place may need to be looked at and see if the hassle of them being there are worth it or not. Of course there are some that are very much worth it. But this whole debate is a good example. I stated an issue, which 99% stated was not an issue and really didn't care about it. So why is there even an issue at all. Some will say it's not an issue, but it all comes from other "issues". To everyone that posted here: I asked for your opinions and I thank you for them. Even the beligerent ones.

Hemlock I didn't suggest those things. I suggested a certain number of finds first. Also I can tell you Joe Smith is going to maintain it for me. Are you going to ask for his phone number? If so, are you actually going to call him? I don't think that you would because it would be extra work. People can give fake stuff on that as well. So why even restrict it or make people feel they need to make a sock puppet account to do so? Captain Chaoss: I really don't care about any of it as far as vacation caches. I've never placed one or tried. My concern is that there is a concern with vacation caches, but the only thing being done (as stated by hemlock now) is to request a name from the person of who is maintaining it. But that is only for people who use their real names. People can avoid that, suspicion and speculation by using a sock puppet account. The odds are that those who feel the need to place a vacation cache using a sock puppet name are the ones most likely to abandon a cache.

Renegade: That is true! I used the idea of having a certain amount of finds first, because then someone would have to take the chance of getting caught faking them. They may just so happen to fake ones where the person checked. And then if they are doing it in an area they are not familiar with, then they run a higher risk of it. Mopar mentioned about someone faking finds and getting caught. It can happen. Bassoon: I meant that I use those examples from that previous discussion back in the summer. I used the examples of back home then, because I could see where the person was coming from. I have moved around a lot in my life (Turkey>TX>SC>GA>TX>Korea>CA>GA>SC>MA). I had just moved from SC(Augusta Georgia area) to MA. I was getting ready to go home for a visit after living here for about 6 months. Before going home, I checked out caches back home and there were very few. I knew of many places that caches could go. After reading the online logs, I noticed that many of the cachers were not even familiar with the area and didn't know things about the places as mentioned. Perhaps a lot to do with the military there. The person I was relating to was living in CA and their home was in PA. They had placed a cache in PA and were looking for someone to maintain the cache and that started the whole thing. They didn't place the cache in an unknowing area. They placed it in an area they knew well, but knew they needed to do the right thing and ensure it was maintained properly. First of all, the cache was approved. So there really is no way around things like that happening. I could relate with them in the fact of being somewhere different and returning home. I used it as an example. I also stated then that I could keep one maintained. I ahve plenty of family and friends there to do it for me. In reaction to that thread, Jeremy stated it was ok as long as there was someone to maintain it. And we also know about others who have caches listed under their names that others maintain.

woof*lulu: Actually that was about posting, opinions, and ideas. This has to do with keeping the people real. captian chaoss: it's not a battle...matter of fact it's an opinion as initially stated. I know and understand the story behind vacation caches and the reasons for not wanting them. I agree that the "problems" should be dealt with. So if there is a problem with them or some of them, then why let an easy route around it happen? Making up a fake account is a way that a person who wants to hide a vacation cache, can. You just stated that vacation caches construed to problems ("placed in unauthorized places, have been left unmaintained, and other problems"). Why not put a little hamper on it. Not all vacation caches will be like that and even those problems you mentioned are done by even the veteran cachers. You also just stated "Its the "ounce of prevention, pound of cure" theory." Isn't that what i'm stating? bmcilvoy: Yes those were placed a while back too. Not saying that they weren't good caches or that anyone who places a cache first, don't have good caches. It's all based on what is stated to be a problem (vacation caches). True and honest cachers have to go through hoops and others who go around and cheat don't have to. Are things better that way? No. Real cachers are restricted while fake ones aren't.

Hemlock...I agree with you somewhat. But why have the hoops to go through anyway if it's not an issue? You mentioned your friend. It would be obvious that the approver would at least see that his sign up date was not the same day or somewhere there closely. Also your friend could wait for you to return if there was a problem. I agree in the whole scheme of things about placing caches. It makes no difference to me who places a cache or how many finds they have. All I care is that it's a decent cache. My problem is those hoops others have to go through for something that apparently not so many people care about it in the first place. Sparky, I believe it falls under the finds and not the "hunt for" category. But it's been discussed and many owners do not check the online logs with the written logs. So there would be no way to tell exactly if a finder online was actually there in person or not.

LOL Sax...I don't stir up trouble...or at least don't intend to...If I see something I disagree with, I will say it. If I see that something could be better, then I will suggest it. It's all in good fun. It sure the heck beats what i didn't get for christmas, what I got for christmas, what i'm praying for, and etc....and my topic is ON topic! hehehe... ok so everyone has their pet peeves..mine happens to be this issue....