mtnsteve

Yea, your right, I was wrong ....I blame it on too much skiing (there the down hill person does have the right away) and just plain brain fade.... that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.... It's not about the mistakes we make, it's about what we learn from them....

Yea, your right, I was wrong ....I blame it on too much skiing (there the down hill person does have the right away) and just plain brain fade.... that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.... It's not about the mistakes we make, it's about what we learn from them....

Ok folks, about the deer digging up your urine to eat the salt....this is the response I have gotten so far.... this is from the LNT site... "Urine: Urine has little direct effect on vegetation or soil. In some instances urine may draw wildlife which are attracted to the salts. They can defoliate plants and dig up soil. Urinating on rocks, pine needles, and gravel is less likely to attract wildlife. Diluting urine with water from a water bottle can help minimize negative effects." http://www.lnt.org/TeachingLNT/background/dispose.htm Check some of the response's I got at a backpacking site ... Example.. "During our "briefing" before heading out into the backcountry at Glacier, the ranger advised we whiz on the trail if we had to go while hiking. She said this helped minimize impact from animals pawing up the area for the salt." http://www.thebackpacker.com/trailtalk/thread.php?id=15022&age=1 This is from the Columbia Cascades Cluster (NPS)... "Urinate on rocks and gravel well away from camp. Salt starved deer and mountain goats can cause dramatic damage as they paw up soil and defoliate plants looking for newly deposited salts from urine." http://www.nps.gov/ccso/leave.htm

Ok folks, about the deer digging up your urine to eat the salt....this is the response I have gotten so far.... this is from the LNT site... "Urine: Urine has little direct effect on vegetation or soil. In some instances urine may draw wildlife which are attracted to the salts. They can defoliate plants and dig up soil. Urinating on rocks, pine needles, and gravel is less likely to attract wildlife. Diluting urine with water from a water bottle can help minimize negative effects." http://www.lnt.org/TeachingLNT/background/dispose.htm Check some of the response's I got at a backpacking site ... Example.. "During our "briefing" before heading out into the backcountry at Glacier, the ranger advised we whiz on the trail if we had to go while hiking. She said this helped minimize impact from animals pawing up the area for the salt." http://www.thebackpacker.com/trailtalk/thread.php?id=15022&age=1 This is from the Columbia Cascades Cluster (NPS)... "Urinate on rocks and gravel well away from camp. Salt starved deer and mountain goats can cause dramatic damage as they paw up soil and defoliate plants looking for newly deposited salts from urine." http://www.nps.gov/ccso/leave.htm

OFF ROAD is right on about National Geographic Topo, it is especially good if many of your maps or caches are actually in the mountains or REALLY off road. This program works great to print out your own maps, but I don't believe you can load them into your GPS. It also allows you to input your routes right on the maps, great if you want to see exactly where you wandered. I use WebShots to post maps for some of the more difficult level 4/5 caches I have placed in the mountains...I put the site address under "Additional hints"., and usually show the roads into the area, or sometimes the location of the cache itself. http://community.webshots.com/album/18786349sewmdCZNMv It's not about the mistakes we make, it's about what we learn from them....

Seems like the right thing to do,I would think it's being a responsible cacher.... I just changed the difficulty rating of two of my mountain caches from 5 to 3.5/4...when I placed them it was the middle of winter and the only way in was skis or snowshoes, now you can drive to about 100 yards of one of them. It's not about the mistakes we make, it's about what we learn from them....

Some how it just doesn't seem right.... I have gone out with several newbies that I have introduced to Geocaching, they were using my GPS on several occasions and since they found the cache and not I, I have them post it. Because of that, my "page" shows about a dozen caches around my house that I have not found, but I have seen. It's not about the mistakes we make, it's about what we learn from them....

Were kinda at that common sense thingy that Rockdoctors mentioned... If I am in the middle of the wilderness, miles away from anyone, I don't pack out my dogs solid waste (I will kick it far off the train though), if I am in our local park, or on one of the local bike/hiking trails I will pack it out. I remember when you just dropped your pants while on El Cap and let it fall, when you could just find a spot on Mt Shasta and Lassen and take care of your business, when you didn't have to worry about stepping in dog crap on the local walking trails and when horses didn't have to wear diapers (now that's funny, sad, but funny), when you could drink water right out of the lake or stream, and when you could just load up the truck and head for the mountains.... Unfortunately, now with so many folks in the mountains and on the trails, much of that has changed....changed because there are just too many folks out there and SOME are lazy, unthinking, ignorant and too concerned with their own "rights" to be aware how it affects others.... ....now you must make reservations to go into the back country in many place's, use kitty litter and bags on the big wall's of Yosemite and on mountains like Shasta, now they actually have patrol's to be sure you pick up after your dog on local trails and hand out tickets if you don't and Giardia and Crypto Sporidia are now household words..... (I know that it's carried by animal feces and wild animals don't bury their waste, but it is also carried by dogs and humans) Actually this may be overstated see this.. http://www.yosemite.org/naturenotes/Giardia.htm thanks to georgeandmary for the link. I suppose it comes down to this, some folks will use common sense and respect other's rights and feelings...others couldn't give a crap (pun intended) and because of that, we will some day have laws that will require ALL of us to pack out our waste, make reservations just to go day hiking and actually see us banned in some places....all the while the clods will be complaining about our "rights" being taken away....when they are the ones responsible for us losing them in the first place. and yes, I was one of those clods years ago, but I learned from my mistakes and while I may still be a bit of a clod at times......I'm much better now...... [This message was edited by mtnsteve on June 30, 2002 at 12:03 PM.]

Were kinda at that common sense thingy that Rockdoctors mentioned... If I am in the middle of the wilderness, miles away from anyone, I don't pack out my dogs solid waste (I will kick it far off the train though), if I am in our local park, or on one of the local bike/hiking trails I will pack it out. I remember when you just dropped your pants while on El Cap and let it fall, when you could just find a spot on Mt Shasta and Lassen and take care of your business, when you didn't have to worry about stepping in dog crap on the local walking trails and when horses didn't have to wear diapers (now that's funny, sad, but funny), when you could drink water right out of the lake or stream, and when you could just load up the truck and head for the mountains.... Unfortunately, now with so many folks in the mountains and on the trails, much of that has changed....changed because there are just too many folks out there and SOME are lazy, unthinking, ignorant and too concerned with their own "rights" to be aware how it affects others.... ....now you must make reservations to go into the back country in many place's, use kitty litter and bags on the big wall's of Yosemite and on mountains like Shasta, now they actually have patrol's to be sure you pick up after your dog on local trails and hand out tickets if you don't and Giardia and Crypto Sporidia are now household words..... (I know that it's carried by animal feces and wild animals don't bury their waste, but it is also carried by dogs and humans) Actually this may be overstated see this.. http://www.yosemite.org/naturenotes/Giardia.htm thanks to georgeandmary for the link. I suppose it comes down to this, some folks will use common sense and respect other's rights and feelings...others couldn't give a crap (pun intended) and because of that, we will some day have laws that will require ALL of us to pack out our waste, make reservations just to go day hiking and actually see us banned in some places....all the while the clods will be complaining about our "rights" being taken away....when they are the ones responsible for us losing them in the first place. and yes, I was one of those clods years ago, but I learned from my mistakes and while I may still be a bit of a clod at times......I'm much better now...... [This message was edited by mtnsteve on June 30, 2002 at 12:03 PM.]

Thanks for all the hard work you and your staff have put into this, Geocaching wouldn't be what it is today without you.

Thanks for all the hard work you and your staff have put into this, Geocaching wouldn't be what it is today without you.

niskibum..... I have to admit that my evidence about the deer is anecdotal, for the last 15 years, in the Trinity Alps, in Northern CA, everyone that I have talked to has mentioned that the deer always go to where they pee and dig up the dirt...the kids on our trips started to pee just outside their tent's and the deer ALWAYS came right up to the spot and dug it up. As I mentioned, I am up there 10/14 days a month and I have observed this behavior for the last 15 years. As to the salt content of our pee, I SUSPECT that since animals get very little natural salt in their diet, compared to our diet, that is what the deer are after...I have never observed the deer digging up around bear, fox, or their own pee. My partner is an avid hunter, born and raised in Canada, he believes that it is for the salt as well...because this has stirred up such an avid debate I will check with some of the local hunters and wildlife specialists and see what they believe. Alan2.... Ken & Robin.... I believe your right, around here we can hike for days and not see another person...it's not like that with the caches in and around town. Most of our mountain caches are level 4/5, they don't get much response compared with the rest of the caches. pipedreamer.... I don't deal with trolls......go away boy, you bother me. [This message was edited by mtnsteve on June 29, 2002 at 06:54 PM.]

niskibum..... I have to admit that my evidence about the deer is anecdotal, for the last 15 years, in the Trinity Alps, in Northern CA, everyone that I have talked to has mentioned that the deer always go to where they pee and dig up the dirt...the kids on our trips started to pee just outside their tent's and the deer ALWAYS came right up to the spot and dug it up. As I mentioned, I am up there 10/14 days a month and I have observed this behavior for the last 15 years. As to the salt content of our pee, I SUSPECT that since animals get very little natural salt in their diet, compared to our diet, that is what the deer are after...I have never observed the deer digging up around bear, fox, or their own pee. My partner is an avid hunter, born and raised in Canada, he believes that it is for the salt as well...because this has stirred up such an avid debate I will check with some of the local hunters and wildlife specialists and see what they believe. Alan2.... Ken & Robin.... I believe your right, around here we can hike for days and not see another person...it's not like that with the caches in and around town. Most of our mountain caches are level 4/5, they don't get much response compared with the rest of the caches. pipedreamer.... I don't deal with trolls......go away boy, you bother me. [This message was edited by mtnsteve on June 29, 2002 at 06:54 PM.]

Oh ferchrissake....get a clue dude Our pee contains MUCH more salt then the animals does, THAT'S WHY THEY DIG IT UP. Your response reminds me of when Reagan (? To paraphrase) said, trees pollute so we shouldn't worry about what we do to contribute to it. I spend 10/14 days a month in the woods, I have seen the damage that this causes, that's why we changed how we do it. What's wrong with peeing on the trail occasionally? We suggest doing it because it is already packed down, with nothing growing on it and the sun bleaches it out. I noticed that you have never placed or found a cache...hope you plan to participate in this fine sport soon, rather then just talking about it... Unless of course, you are a TROLL Busted DUDE BTW, the comment made by shybabe924, I suspect, meant that no woman that left a Tampon in the woods could be called a lady....must have gone over your head, huh. [This message was edited by mtnsteve on June 28, 2002 at 11:00 PM.]

Oh ferchrissake....get a clue dude Our pee contains MUCH more salt then the animals does, THAT'S WHY THEY DIG IT UP. Your response reminds me of when Reagan (? To paraphrase) said, trees pollute so we shouldn't worry about what we do to contribute to it. I spend 10/14 days a month in the woods, I have seen the damage that this causes, that's why we changed how we do it. What's wrong with peeing on the trail occasionally? We suggest doing it because it is already packed down, with nothing growing on it and the sun bleaches it out. I noticed that you have never placed or found a cache...hope you plan to participate in this fine sport soon, rather then just talking about it... Unless of course, you are a TROLL Busted DUDE BTW, the comment made by shybabe924, I suspect, meant that no woman that left a Tampon in the woods could be called a lady....must have gone over your head, huh. [This message was edited by mtnsteve on June 28, 2002 at 11:00 PM.]

I just thought of something to add about peeing (never thought I'd say that), but we teach the kids to pee on the trail, bare ground or on a rock...the reason is that the deer will dig up the earth to get the salt and other minerals from it...we began to notice that they were tearing up plants and digging up around the roots of trees, possibly killing them. This is something we just started last year......it's always something.......

I just thought of something to add about peeing (never thought I'd say that), but we teach the kids to pee on the trail, bare ground or on a rock...the reason is that the deer will dig up the earth to get the salt and other minerals from it...we began to notice that they were tearing up plants and digging up around the roots of trees, possibly killing them. This is something we just started last year......it's always something.......

Now that you mention it, I believe your right about two folks meeting on a trail, when both have overnight packs on, the up hill person has the right away.......I stand corrected. With the back country skiers, it's the skier downhill who moves...... it's easier to step to the side then to guess which way the person down hill is going to move, since he is moving much slower.. Too much time on ski's and too much time with a big pack........

Now that you mention it, I believe your right about two folks meeting on a trail, when both have overnight packs on, the up hill person has the right away.......I stand corrected. With the back country skiers, it's the skier downhill who moves...... it's easier to step to the side then to guess which way the person down hill is going to move, since he is moving much slower.. Too much time on ski's and too much time with a big pack........

Interesting article on Giardia, I may have to reevaluate......but I still will probably treat my water, old habits die hard. I did get it once years ago, I suspect I have had Crypto Sporidia as well, but as I spend a third of my life in the mountains I suppose that is to be expected. Great article on Leave No Trace....

Interesting article on Giardia, I may have to reevaluate......but I still will probably treat my water, old habits die hard. I did get it once years ago, I suspect I have had Crypto Sporidia as well, but as I spend a third of my life in the mountains I suppose that is to be expected. Great article on Leave No Trace....

Many folks that are Geocaching today are new to the woods, or perhaps have not been out in the mountains since their Boy Scout day's....since many of the caches are located in the mountains, it may be worth going over some rules about Outdoor Etiquette so we can all be more responsible out there. Things like, going to the bathroom (see the thread Geocaching Packs, this is where the idea for this thread came up) , right of way on trails and leave no trace, can actually mean different things to different people, in different parts of the country. It was suggested we start a thread on today's outdoor etiquette and I think that is a great idea. Some of the things I am going to start with may seem like no brainier's to some of you, but not everyone was raised in the mountains, so bear with me. These "rules" are what we are following on the West Coast, they are what the Rangers and Forest service people are asking us to do...where you live, you may have different ways of doing things because of population density, terrain or other considerations. Going to the bathroom.... PLEASE, pack out your toilet paper , animals WILL dig it up and scatter it all around the area. The way most folks do it is like this....you take the paper you have used and wrap it in one or two sheet's of clean paper, then place it in another zip lock bag...it's actually rather simple. You don't get any on you or on the bag you use. In the desert you are actually supposed to smear the solid waste on a rock, so it can dry in the sun, then be blown away in the wind...pack out the paper. On the coast, you are supposed to go in the ocean..you are not supposed to bury it in the sand. Right of way on trails.... The person traveling downhill has the right of way. Pull off the trail when you see horses or pack animals and let them pass. Snow shoe users, please do not walk in the X-C ski tracks. Controll your dogs!! Pack it in/Pack it out means just that... Ladies, please pack out your Tampons, etc. Cigarette butts should be carried out in your trash, or the deer will eat them. Do not burn foil packets in your camp fire, unless you plan to pack them out the next day. If you carried that beer can in full, you sure as Heck can pack it out empty. Leave only foot prints.... No trenches around tents. No cutting of trees to make a quick shelter, or bed of branches. Don't feed the animals DON'T DRINK THE WATER with out treating it or filtering, unless you know it to be safe, Giardia and Crypto Sporidia are everywhere! These are just a few things, please add to this list. Let us know whats proper in your area. Thanks....

Many folks that are Geocaching today are new to the woods, or perhaps have not been out in the mountains since their Boy Scout day's....since many of the caches are located in the mountains, it may be worth going over some rules about Outdoor Etiquette so we can all be more responsible out there. Things like, going to the bathroom (see the thread Geocaching Packs, this is where the idea for this thread came up) , right of way on trails and leave no trace, can actually mean different things to different people, in different parts of the country. It was suggested we start a thread on today's outdoor etiquette and I think that is a great idea. Some of the things I am going to start with may seem like no brainier's to some of you, but not everyone was raised in the mountains, so bear with me. These "rules" are what we are following on the West Coast, they are what the Rangers and Forest service people are asking us to do...where you live, you may have different ways of doing things because of population density, terrain or other considerations. Going to the bathroom.... PLEASE, pack out your toilet paper , animals WILL dig it up and scatter it all around the area. The way most folks do it is like this....you take the paper you have used and wrap it in one or two sheet's of clean paper, then place it in another zip lock bag...it's actually rather simple. You don't get any on you or on the bag you use. In the desert you are actually supposed to smear the solid waste on a rock, so it can dry in the sun, then be blown away in the wind...pack out the paper. On the coast, you are supposed to go in the ocean..you are not supposed to bury it in the sand. Right of way on trails.... The person traveling downhill has the right of way. Pull off the trail when you see horses or pack animals and let them pass. Snow shoe users, please do not walk in the X-C ski tracks. Controll your dogs!! Pack it in/Pack it out means just that... Ladies, please pack out your Tampons, etc. Cigarette butts should be carried out in your trash, or the deer will eat them. Do not burn foil packets in your camp fire, unless you plan to pack them out the next day. If you carried that beer can in full, you sure as Heck can pack it out empty. Leave only foot prints.... No trenches around tents. No cutting of trees to make a quick shelter, or bed of branches. Don't feed the animals DON'T DRINK THE WATER with out treating it or filtering, unless you know it to be safe, Giardia and Crypto Sporidia are everywhere! These are just a few things, please add to this list. Let us know whats proper in your area. Thanks....

That's a really good idea, sometimes things are done differently in other parts of the county, handling the bathroom situation in the desert and on the coast is REALLY different ....I would enjoying learning how the "rules" have changed in different areas myself. I know when snowshoeing became popular out here, we had some minor problems, and a few rescues, because some of the folks who ventured out into the snow, were new to the mountains and in a new element, some just didn't know how to handle it properly, plus, like you said, things have changed over the years....I really miss drinking water right out of the stream! I will put some thoughts together....I would enjoying hearing some ideas from the rest of you on how we can all become more responsible Geocachers and outdoors people.

The way most folks to it is like this....you take the paper you have used and wrap it in one or two sheet's of clean paper, then place it in another zip lock bag...it's actually rather simple. You don't get any on you or on the bag you use. For folks who use the wilderness on a regular basis, this is how it's done...there is nothing worse then finding a beautiful location in the mountains, only to discover that someone who doesn't know better, or just doesn't care, has buried his/her paper..only to have the animals dig it up and leave it exposed all over the area. This is just common courtesy, like not leaving your trash behind or not trenching around your tent. The woods have become very crowded, climbers on some mountains are required to not only pack out their paper, but the solid waste as well. Geocaching is a wonderful sport, it is exposing many folks to the woods that would have never ventured out before...because of that, many are not aware of the "rules" (man, I hate that term) , that the rest of us have been following for years....pack it in/pack it out (this includes women packing out their Tampons, etc) , the down hill skier/hiker has the right of way, don't feed the animals, leave only footprints, step aside for pack animals, don't cut down fresh pine branches for your bed, don't trench around your tent, these kind's of things. I just returned from a 10 day trip in the mountains, some of the most beautiful spots I know of were ruined because the people who visited last had buried their paper.... beautiful campsites, spots along the river and even on the top of a peak were strewn with used toilet paper...not a pretty site. I believe that a zip lock bag, in the trash, with perhaps a tiny bit of solid waste on the inside, is far superior to a campsite with used toilet paper strewn all around, don't you? Believe me, I don't enjoy doing it, but at least when the next folks come up behind me, they wont have to look at it because I thought it was to "gross" to dispose of properly. Oh yea, because of this, I always have a packet of Handy Wipes in my pack.