-CJ-

What I would love to have at geocaches in our region is when one sees DNF at some cache location he's going to visit he a) reads the corresponding log, b ) contacts the CO and offers help if needed. Nevertheless, I agree with you and respect traditions. Write note looks more reasonable and even more neutral.

As The_Incredibles said above, it's area specific. I think I should keep in mind what example I may give to newbies. We have not many geocachers over here. Any decision may matter. Or not. I cannot be sure about that. DNF seems to be the most neutral choice with a frozen container.

...as a cache owner. But as a cache hunter I most probably won't log a cache as found if I failed to sign its logbook e.g. because it was too wet and I didn't take care even to put a sheet of paper inside. I also won't ask a CO for permission to log his/her cache as found in such circumstances. Yes, it's not geologging, and it's not for numbers.

Maybe. One of main reasons for me to be at this forum is to learn what practical experience</recommendations given here could be applicable in our region. The described situation is one of those where I follow a very simple solution. A forgotten pen is definitely my own problem (as a cache hunter) and I won't bother anyone with explanations, requests, questions, etc. A frozen container or soaked logbook is still a problem (perhaps a serious one) and to me it looks reasonable to try to solve it - or log the cache as DNF (if I have no instruments/time/motivation/etc.). Again, you're probably right about this issue being area specific, So do I. Does this just demonstrate that geocaches are visited by non-geocachers?

There are many sutuations when (according to this approach) cache hunters can log caches as found without signing their logbooks. Just do this once or twice as an exclusion, it may turn into a habit.

I don't see much difference if I describe precisely what happened with the cache. For instance, I sometimes logged geocaches as DNF because it was too risky to approach GZ due to muggles. It's DNF since I failed to find the cache. At the same time it's not DNF since I didn't actually searched at GZ. There are too many situations when one have to decide whether to log some cache as found or not. Some people would agree that if one can log a cache as found without opening the box then one can do the same without touching container (for instance, if it's frozen into ice totally). So, it becomes possible to find a cache by just seeing it. E.g. I see a micro magnet attached to a road sign but there are people standing and walking around, so should I log this cache as found? And so on, and so forth. The reason may be just the same in all cases: save a cache from risks of being broken or muggled. We had the very same issue at our Russian national geocaching website. No "universal" solution was found, but what actually happened was that COs started to archive their caches for winter or turn them into virtuals (virtuals have never been banned at .su). And there have been more and more false "found it" from cache seekers ("It was so snowy that we were afraid that our steps could spoil the cache camouflage so we just logged it as found, TFTC"). Instead, there are pretty clear things COs can do: when placing a cache think about how it will look like in winter (in high water, in heavy rain, at night) and choose your hiding spots (and hiding technique) accurately. For cache hunters: write down a COs phone number and take your repairing kit with you. If you're ready to repair/replace an e.g. frozen cache if its lid is broken - go ahead, open it and sign the logbook. If not, don't give it a try, and that cannot be "found it".

Once failed to get a micro magnetic container from its hiding place. The hole was very narrow and it seemed that I would most probably push it further so it would be totally inaccessible. Logged DNF with some hope that the cache owner would take care. Since he didn't pay any attention I just returned next week with a proper instrument and grabbed the container easily. Frozen containers are frequent here in Russia. Geocachers come from nice warm countries at summer and place containers like they would probably do where they live. This year I tried to find a cache in Moscow near our highest TV tower. This would be an easy find in summer but is covered with thick snow carpet in winter - the CO apparently didn't think that winter in Russia might be quite snowy No seasonal attributes, no warnings. Maybe it is still possible to dig the box from snow but I cannot imagine how one could be stealthy enough because the GZ is very close to the TV tower guards cabin. Will wait until late April (normally this is when snow melts here completely). It is also very common that CO hide micros in parks using such places as branch forks. These hides are usually done in summer. In winter however these containers are frequently covered with ice so you can touch them and even see them but cannot open them. (Or probably you need a gas stove and a pint of hot water to melt this ice down ). Last month I had to log DNF at two geocaches of this kind.

Someone mentioned Tanzania. I'm from Russia. You may look at the map to find out that the territory of our country is almost free from geocaches. The biggest problem with geocaching.com here is that issue with "vacation caches". This approach simply doesn't work here because of large distances and poor development of GPS technologies. The only way to develop the game here is to broaden horizons and place new geocaches. If we just follow the "vacation" rule and wait until local geocaching communities appear in Russian regions we can wait for decades (this is what happens now). If there is an additional limitation like "place your cache after 100 finds only" we can forget about geocaching in Russian regions at all.

We've so small number of caches here in Russia that "to stop geocaching" makes little sense. If you manage to find one cache per week you may call yourself a very active geocacher over here.

I don't photolog missing caches myself and don't like when people try to do this at my geocaches. At the same time, I'm deeply grateful to anyone who helps me to replace a missing container, so if he wishes to log this cache as found after that I've no objections.

I see. Thank you.

Thank you. I know that story but wasn't sure if there has been just no progress in work, or there's a hidden option to switch on/off WYSIWYG, or there was Groundspeak decision not to implement WYSIWYG for editing (for some reason). Now I see that the job wasn't completed by now. I'm fine with the plain text interface.

For my cache listings I usually upload images (photos) and use them inline. I insert thumbnails (*/display/*) which are automatically generated by gc.com software when I upload my images to the server. For each thumbnail I manually add a hyperlink to its original image. I wonder if there is a module/CSS class at gc.com which could provide a smooth open of a hyperlinked image in a pop-up window with a shadowed background (Lightbox way)? What's the correct syntax for hrefs/imgs to achieve this effect?

It's nice to have a WYSIWYG editor when publishing a cache listing. However for me this editor appears only once (when I publish a new cache). If I want to edit some existing listing there's no WYSIWYG. I personally have no troubles with HTML. Just wish to know if I'm missing some options/settings. If not, what is the reason for offering WYSIWYG editor for creating a geocache but not for its later editing?

I looked though this thread just to be sure that suggestions are what I really used to do at geocaches when trying to be sneaky In our country the percentage of muggled geocaches is very high. The game in urban environment actually started here a couple of years ago and geocachers still lack experience in how to camouflage a micro attached to a fence, how to grab it without demostrating this attempt to everyone around, etc. So, it's an issue of not only circumstances but also my own experience. I would better avoid grabbing a cache if there's a muggle sitting too close to it. I would definitely not try explaining him/her the meaning of the game (quite useless attempt here). In most cases I just leave to return later. Many caches are better found at night (late evening). Kids are helpful but not in every situation. Talking on a mobile phone, lighting a cigarette, trying to tie shoelaces or find something in my bag are usual tricks. It's very good to have a camera at hand. Most caches are hidden in interesting places so no one is surprised seeing a man trying to focus on some building, changing lenses, writing smth in a small logbook (just some numbers, aperture/focal distance, right?) When someone sees a photographer he/she quickly switches attention from me to what I'm supposedly taking photo of. It's sometimes good to talk to a stranger if I feel he/she becomes troubled with my presence, e.g. ask him/her something about the place. Many locals seem to be happy to talk about the church they visited when being children, long ago, and share their knowledge with someone. I definitely cannot understand cache owners who place containers in a way that my behaviour is suspicious whatever I do to be sneaky. E.g. there was a nano cache attached to a road sign standing on a crossroads at a height of about 2.5 m. The location was observed clearly from hundreds of windows of houses nearby. Cars were usually parked at every corner. The most problematic issue was a playground for kids at about 3 m from the GZ. While kids were busy their parents seem to be really bored and interested in everything that happened around. I would understand if the cache was "just to demonstrate your ability to become invisible" - however it was devoted to a really nice church at some distance. The church was better observed at day time but I had to return there at night to grab this cache. I bet there were many good places to put a magnetic nano (including those closer to the church).

I think I have at least five main reasons 1) Visiting new interesting places. Many of them became known to me thanks to geocaching. 2) Hiding my own caches in some original way, e.g. using cutiing in a forest as a giant chessboard. 3) Involving new people into geocaching. It's so nice when someone says: "It was your cache which I found first and I fell in love with the game". 4) Learning smth new about how to hide/find geocaches. 5) Finding new friends. Some of good guys (and girls of course ) that I've made acquaintance with in last decade were from the local geocaching community.

I agree. It depends on situation. I admire people with strong principles (who used to say "I never..." or "I always..." or "This is the main rule in my life..." ) but for me it depends on situation. When I'm in the heart of a big city and fail to find a micro/nano I will just log DNF. Even if the cache was really muggled - well, the location is very popular, someone (if not the CO, and maybe far more experienced then me) will come tomorrow or next week, so the cache won't be lost/forgotten for half a year. When I hike to some remote location and find a cache missing I will try to contact the CO (normally if a cache has some problems that are mentioned on its webpage I contact the CO in advance). If the CO is not accessible at the moment I will most probably replace the cache. In our country most caches can be described as remote. COs have to travel several hours or more to get to their caches. And (sadly) geocaching is not much popular around here. So, the main rule is pretty simple: do everything you can to keep the cache in the game. Moreover (and this is really important) local caches have detailed descriptions and photohints. "Throwdown" rarely happens here. However when our folks start hunting caches in big cities at geocaching.com I used to warn them against making quick decisions. It's definitely not about smileys for me. It is for the other local community members to see that if you help to maintain such a remote cache it is better than just to pass by. Since I understand that the situation in many developed countries with thousands of caches and strong geocaching communities is different, I will play differently and tell about this difference to my playing mates. Let me drop one more notice to this discussion. If John just logs DNF for some missing cache he still has his chance to go back one day to search for this cache and log it as found. If Jane helped to maintain the cache she still logs DNF but has no opportunity to log it as found in future. (Until the cache is not muggled/replaced by someone else). So, to log DNF seems to be in all ways easier and wiser than to do any maintenance. Again, good for locations that are frequently visited with many other caches around and strong geocaching communities. Not so good for remote locations that take hours (or even days) to reach, when there are not so many caches and cachers in the country.

Looks like you guys had some hot discussion about "throwdowns" earlier

Thank you all for your answers. It's really interesting how different is geocaching in different countries/realities. The game here (where I live) can survive only due to mutual assistance between geocachers. It's a "fair play" tradition to do everything you can to keep caches in good condition and within the game. What you call a "throwdown" is not welcomed of course. People are encouraged to contact COs before going geocaching. Jane wouldn't be crucified for her attempt though maybe she would be given a good advice by some experienced cacher for her next geocaching trip. If John logs DNF for a cache he failed to find it is common. If he found that the cache was obviously damaged or missing from its hiding place but did nothing to improve the situation this would be... how do you say here? between him, his conscience and the stability of the whole game. I personally have no objections to "found it" logs by geocachers who help me to repair my caches. This is one more (and very important) way to keep the game going around here. I take your advices seriously and respect your attitude to "found it" and "DNF" logs. Your reasons are quite clear. This is what I usually do myself.

What if you are not able call/text/email the owner while at ground zero? Or the owner seems to be unaccessible at the moment?

Thank you for clearing this difference to me English is actually not my first language. You said I probably should not log the cache as found after I maintained it. OK, I walk away, come back tomorrow morning, sign logbook and log the cache as found. Is anything wrong with that? It's funny you mentioned my conscience Anyway, let's say John found some cache missing from its hiding place, passed by and logged it later as DNF. Jane found herself in just the same situation but replaced the cache (spent a good container, logbook, pencil, souvenirs, did some good camouflage, recorded GPS coordinates, took a photo of the hiding place, sent information to CO). John did nothing to help the game. Jane did much. Both got DNFs. Don't you think that with such approach we don't encourage people to do any maintenance? (I hereby confirm that I know about that COs are responsible for maintainance by rule )

Once I went to a geocache and found it missing. I read recent logs and knew that the cache had been rather simple to find but last cachers reported that it had been most probably muggled when the fence (it was a magnetic nano attached to the fence) had been painted. Indeed, there were signs of fresh paint and no container. I wasn't able to contact the CO by phone. So I restored the cache in other place (close to the original one) with good camouflage and even turned it from micro into small (provided new container, logbook and a couple of souvenirs that I had with me). Next day I logged that cache as DNF and send all details by email to the cache owner to know if he liked the idea. I offered him to take my container and use it for any other geocaching purposes if he was not satisfied with my attempt. He was glad to know that the cache had been replaced since he had no physical ability to maintain it soon. The coordinates/hint were changed, everyone seemed to be happy. I believe that this story is not what you call an "Angel cache". The question is whether I can log the cache as found after all or not?

It was getting dark when I found that cache but still possible to make photos. The container was located at the seashore at a steep rocky slope so I had to descend a meter and half from the nearby greenery towards water. Thus, only my head and shoulders were visible from the shore. I grabbed the container and thought it was a good idea to take a photo of it and the surroundings. I placed the container carefully at the very edge of the nearest stone for better composition and took out my camera when a dog approached. I tried to pat the lovely creature hoping that it will go away after that. I found myself in a very awkward position with my camera in one hand, using my foot to keep the container from rolling down the slope into the sea. Then a dog owner appeared wondering what was her pet doing at that dangerous slope. I had to twist my body so the kind lady could not see the geocache from above, safeguarding the container by one foot, patting the dog, raising my camera high so it doesn't get new scratches from sharp rocks and talking with the lady about photos and dogs. The most difficult task was to keep my balance so I was happy when she called her dog and they both went away. Under any other circumstances I would love to talk more but...

I don't post my log as "found it" if I didn't sign the logbook. The reason is quite simple. If I play this way and allow to do this at my own geocaches, any other cacher can play this style. What today is an exclusion from the rule may become a probable variant tomorrow and a good tradition next month. People start thinking like this: "Oh, muggles, too many people. If it was a must to sign the logbook we could wait for them to go away. But we can log the cache as found without signing its logbook, so why shall we wait?!". People don't care about replacing soaked logbooks ("I wasn't able to sign the log because it was all wet. Put it back and went further"). Some people log geocaches as found after they failed to find it actually ("The hiding place was obvious but no container there, the cache must be muggled. Since I've found the place I log the cache as found"). All this with kind permissions from COs, of course. Then, cachers themselves are different. Novices who have almost no experience of caching in big cities see there are muggles around and give up almost immediately. (BTW, many of them say: "I could try to grab the cache but was worried about it not to be muggled after me"). As a result, "the quality of the game" decreases, COs receive less information about their caches and more that bla-bla-bla about muggles, bad weather, total darkness, angry mosquitoes, forgotten pens and other issues. One could say that I'm too dramatic. Well, this is exactly what happened to our "national geocaching" game here in Russia. It is common here even for COs to add to their cache descriptions: "If the container is covered with snow, or there are muggles around, or the cache is found destroyed, or you were not able to grab the container for any other reason please feel free to log it as found after you take your photo in front of ..." This is what we have come to. So - for me now it's "no physical log - no found cache".

Doesn't it raise an additional problem if the cache is being muggled? As a rule, I have a couple of logbooks at hand so I can replace a soaked logbook or add a new one to the container; but obviously I've no cameras for this purpose. So, in other cases I could do some repairings and log it found, in this case I will have no other option but to log DNF. If you have some old cameras for replacement and ready to check the hiding place regularly that could probably work. What about humidity? I believe that at geocaching.com there has been practice of putting cameras into cache containers. If so, could anyone give me a couple of examples of geocaches where it worked for more than a year? (Thanks in advance). We've a couple of caches around here where COs put SD (microSD) cards into small/micro containers. However, geocaching is not much active here so I cannot give any statistics about findings. I suppose that COs are able to visit the places and copy contents of these cards to their devices for later publication. In one case CO requested not to make photos but to record greeting audio messages.