seventhings

The word "recovery" is a "term of art". A term of art is a word or phrase that has a very specific meaning within a profession or discipline, and that specific meaning is different than the meaning of the word or phrase in everyday usage. Thus, in surveying and geodesy, "recovery" means "looked for it and found it and noted its condition". More broadly, "recovery" may mean "looked for it and A. found it and noted its condition, B. failed to find it, or C. determined that it's destroyed", because those of us who submit recovery reports to the NGS often submit those reports when we fail to find the station. Will

Although I have hunted marks on several military installations, I agree with Coastiegirl04. I have passed on hundreds of marks because they are on government property. My reluctance to hunt marks on government property is not because I may get into trouble, but because my presence and actions may distract military police and other security personnel from their primary mission of safeguarding the installation and, therefore, safeguarding us. The installations where I've hunted marks are unusual in that they all have areas that are generally open to the public. In one case (in the vicinity of a helipad on a Coast Guard installation, incidentally), I got permission from the senior officer on duty and remained under the observation of control tower personnel while I conducted a 30-minute search for several marks (and found two or three). Of course, I enjoy a bit of legitimacy on military installations in that I carry a military ID (retired USAF) and my truck has a DoD sticker. Without those two pieces of "cover", I would not hunt marks on government property under any circumstance other than when the mark, itself, is a tourist attraction (like an historic lighthouse) and is open to the general public. I join ArtMan in thanking you, Coastiegirl, for your service, and the service of your fellow Coast Guard professionals, to our nation. Bravo zulu. Will

SLO - Welcome aboard. The written description is (well, should be) sufficiently accurate and complete as to render the mark easily findable by someone armed with only a datasheet, road map, compass and tape measure (and shovel if it's below the surface). My approach to logging benchmarks is this: if the description is accurate and complete, I say "Found as described". If the description is either poorly written or inaccurate because local conditions have changed, then I include whatever information is necessary to enable the next benchmark hunter to find the mark easily. Sometimes it's just a matter of "Pole 18 is now numbered 18-AA123-C", mand sometimes my log starts off "The intersection has been completely re-done and a new description follows. The station is located in the northwest angle of the intersection of ......... etc.". My standard is: how can I make this dead-easy for the next hunter or user. I also say something about the mark's condition if it is anything less than "GOOD". For example, something like "The disk has been banged-up by mowing equipment, but the stamping is readable and the disk appears to be solid in its position." Photos: I generally take two, sometimes three or four. One is a close-up of the mark itself. I generally label this photo "HV1234 R 67 RESET". The second photo is an area shot. If the description positions the disk in relation to a road or pole, I try to include at least one of the environmental references in the photo. I label this photo "HV1234 in Bitsko County, VA". In my description of the photo, I may say something like "Looking west along the north side of Bitskoville Road, the disk is at the white notebook, left-center. Note the utility pole at right and the fire hydrant in the background". Finally, if the mark's position is defined by SCALED horizontal coordinates, I include my handheld's reading in the log: "Handheld coordinates are N38-50.123 W077-45.987". That's my approach. My logs tend to be longer than average, but there are a bunch of hunters who have a similar approach. Some benchmark hunters include info about local color or history in their logs. This is excellent. Someday, I'm going to start a log off with "12,000 years ago, what is now the American Southwest was occupied by a society of big-game hunters .....". Good hunting Will

My experience is very similar to ArtMan's. For a while, I actually kept track of the deviation between the published coordinates and the actual position as measured by my handheld. (I just noted the "GOTO" distance when I was at the mark). For a sample of about 50 marks with SCALED horizontal coordinates, I measured the average deviation at 129 feet. I have also come across three marks where the deviation was 0.35 miles, 0.40 miles and 0.50 miles respectively (and two of the three were in Perth Amboy, NJ!!). Interestingly, when I've found marks with SCALED coordinates that another benchmark hunter found before me (and, when that benchmark hunter listed his or her handheld's position and I've gone to the trouble of loading the other hunter's coordinates into my handheld), I've noted that the deviation between his or her handheld and mine is generally only about 15 feet on average. That deviation (7.5 feet for each hunter) is pretty good, I think, as it is about the same that I generally get between my handheld and the actual position for marks with ADJUSTED horizontal coordinates. Will

CallawayMT - Excellent photo essay. Enjoyed it +++. 7

Art - Of course the town has a railroad. No, wait, it has two! And both have been converted to trails but all the bridges have been preserved and the crossings have not been re-graded since 1937. And, against all odds, there's a lighthouse in the middle of the park on the hill. W

And you will begin to fantasize about a small town in the Midwest. It has a county courthouse set on a tree-lined square. There's a flagpole and a Civil War mounument. There are also seven prominent church-spires, two water tanks and three tall factory stacks. There are four WPA-era bridges east of town and two west of town, and a large public park on a hill. On the outskirts of town, there are miles and miles of wide-shouldered, two-lane blacktop that has not been re-paved since 1929. You will imagine yourself doing a radial search on the courthouse and seeing four pages of un-found marks within three miles. Then, you'll start scouring mapping software to find such a place. When you do find it, you'll start making vacation plans. Years ago, a wise man said "If you monument them, they will come." My name is William, and I'm a benchmark hunter. Abandon all hope, ladeebugg. Will

There are gozillions of benchmarks that are not in the Geocaching database. A few of these (mostly newer ones) may be in the National Geodetic Survey's database, but didn't make the 2000 +/- cut for the Geocaching database. The vast majority of the remaining marks are those set by USGS and other agencies for their purposes, but were never documented to the standards of the NGS and were not, therefore, entered into either the NGS or Geocaching databases. The bad news is: if a mark is not in the Geocaching database, there is no method to get credit for a "Found it". The good news is: the Waymarking "Things > Benchmarks > Recovered US Benchmarks" site provides an excellent vehicle for documenting the existence, condition and location of benchmarks that are not in the Geocaching.com database. Go to: Recovered US Benchmarks and have a look around. Good hunting, Will

Holograph - Thanks for all the work on the stats page and the great county map. Will

Rick SaguaroAstro - You asked: "Now the question I have is if a mark gets buried, how does anyone know it's there? Kind of a tree falling in the woods with nobody around issue, it would seem. It can't serve it's intended purpose, so why show it as still there?" A buried mark may still serve its intended purpose perfectly well (assuming that when it got buried it's position was not disturbed). Of course, a buried and paved-over mark may be tough to use. Or a mark buried several feet below the surface may be near impossible to get to (for a hobbyist). But just buried a few inches deep by some sod and soil is no big problem. That's why surveyors and experienced benchmark hunters carry metal detectors, probes and shovels. I think most of the professional surveyors would say that buried marks may be harder to find but are often just as usable as marks at or above the surface. The key is not "buried" as much as it is "disturbed during the activities that led to the burying". And that's why I tend to log such marks as "not found" rather than "destroyed". While I will seldom go to the effort of trying to find a mark that is described as or may be a foot or so under some new landscaping, a professional surveying crew may dig a good-sized hole (maybe through some asphalt) and have a perfectly functional benchmark to work with. Will

Roamingbull - There are gozillions of benchmarks that are not in the Geocaching database. A few of these (mostly newer ones) may be in the National Geodetic Survey's database, but didn't make the 2000 +/- cut for the Geocaching database. The vast majority of the remaining marks are those set by USGS and other agencies for their purposes, but were never documented to the standards of the NGS and were not, therefore, entered into either the NGS or Geocaching databases. The bad news is: if a mark is not in the Geocaching database, there is no method to get credit for a "Found it". The good news is: the Waymarking "Things > Benchmarks > Recovered US Benchmarks" site provides an excellent vehicle for documenting the existence, condition and location of benchmarks that are not in the Geocaching.com database. Go to: Recovered US Benchmarks and have a look around. Good hunting, Will

saguaroastro - I prefer to log paved-over, uprooted, or otherwise "can't possibly be there anymore" benchmarks as "not found". I know of at least one disk that survives under a few inches of asphalt. Intersection stations (church steeples, water tanks, etc.) are another story. It's easy to determine when they are not there anymore, and they can't hide if they're still there. I'll log them as "Destroyed" in a heartbeat. But it's OK to log disks as "Destroyed" here, but stick to "not found" for NGS if you are inclined to eport recoveries to that agency as well. Most experienced benchmark hunters seldom log disks as "Destroyed", even on GC.com, but it is a hobby site so you do have a lot of latitude. Will

John - Interesting analogy, but not on point in my (not an attorney) opinion. Evenfall's post was not, by the terms of the analogy, equivalent to driving under the influence, and he did nothing substantive or material to create probable cause to be hauled before the judge. ArtMan is correct: evenfall did not deserve this suspension. Will

Spoo - Good points, all. Max - I agree with Spoo - I think you threw the "play nice" yellow card too soon. Looks like a misunderstanding (of evenfall's post) to me. And it looks like evenfall interpreted the misunderstanding as a provocation. No surprise there, given both history and evenfall's practice of making points, well, pointedly. I think some Spirit of the Season reset would be in order. And to evenfall's main point: new benchmark hunters should know and old benchmark hunters should remember that no benchmkark is worth getting run over by a freight train and few benchmarks are worth getting your name entered into the database of suspicious characters. Will

Fenderstrat - What you have there is your basic "Orange Carsonite Witness Post", probably the second most common type (the first being the plain, old 1X2). Carsonite International is the company that makes those orange posts (and the blue ones and yellow ones, etc etc, for other applications like buried TV cable, etc etc). Will

Jeremy - Do you envision that this category would encompass public buildings that are regarded as works of fine architecture, war memorials, miscellaneous monuments and statues, and WPA murals and the like? Could be a really broad category depending on what the meaning of "public" and "art" are. Will

kayakingphotos - I don't have the answer(s), but I assume that the word "recovered" on the benchmark hunting page has the same meaning that it has everywhere else in benchmark hunting which is "found". I think member ROGBARN probably has the official answer. I agree with you - lots of "found" logs are in error. I have not been keeping track, but I would guess about three percent of found marks are wrong. Personally, I have come across several dozen (mostly intersection stations) that others have "found" and I have found to be "destroyed". And, I think, once a mark has been logged as "found" it remains "found" in the stats, even when subsequently disproved and logged as "not found" or "destroyed" by other, more accurate benchmark hunters. Will

m&h - Well done!! All's well that ends well. Will

This would be a good sub-category under People>Memorials. Could be divided into two sub-sub- categories: 1. Law enforcement/public safety/EMT & fire fighters and other non-military line-of-duty. 2. Military to include specific memorials as well as national and state veterans' cemeteries, both in the US and overseas. Would include, of course, the "national cemetery" equivalents of all countries. Good idea if both creation of the waymark and subsequent visits are done with appropriate reverence. Will

Bingo!

To whom it may concern: Waymarking category PEOPLE>ART>EQUESTRIAN STATUES is open for business. Will

gas - By George, I think you've got it!!! Will

I propose the category of Equestrian Statues - statues of famous people on horseback. The art from has been important and widespread in Europe and the Americas for hundreds of years, though there has been a definite falling-off of new ones in the past 75 years or so. The equestrian statue is often the most prominent memorial landmark in town. The Waymark should include: Handheld coordinates Description of physical location and to-reach Identity and title of the historical figure on horseback [bonus points: identity of the horse] Date dedicated Artist Material(s): bronze, marble, etc. Description of unusual features (bronze lion at each corner, for example) Contemporaneous photo(s) by the waymark creator. We may need sub- sub- sub-categories for Geo. Washington and Robert E. Lee. I would be honored (and honoured) to manage. Will

gas4cache - Another part of the "..purpose for it" is the problem-solving; the detective work. Many benchmarks are fall-off-a-log easy to find. Many take a little work, both physical and mental. And some are like complex riddles. With a description that may not have been very well written in the first place and/or a change in the environmental references and/or the fact that there is no documentation that the mark has been visited or used for 60 years, the challenge of finding the darned things is quite motivating. And the hunt is fun. And the emotional reward is substantial. And here's another thing about it: there is actually a pretty steep learning-curve. You can actually get good at it. With experience, you become better organized and better prepared; you begin to accurately envision where the mark will be long before you approach its location. Often, you can spot the things from great distances - just where you knew they would be. And then, when you think the next one is going to be a piece of cake, it's not there, and the description doesn't make sense, and you know exactly where is supposed to be but you just can find it. And if you just knew what a "curb return" was and what the original writer really meant by "southwesterly", you're sure you could find the darned thing. That's when the "it" gets good. Beware, though: as simple (and, maybe, pointless) as this activity seems to be, it is wickedly addictive. Once you start, you'll need a real good 12-step program to stop. Good hunting. Will edited in vain attempt to conform to Standard English.

Ditto WOW!!! I hope there's a missing "to" in there!! 200 in a day is better than "seven at a swat". W