seventhings

Spoo - Yep! John - Uniquely destroyed. Undamaged but destroyed. Mounumented securely in the wrong place. Perfectly usable in an alternative universe. The baseline station for a previously unknown perpendicular datum plane. I would call it destroyed, but I have no gripe with the specifics with your log. Will

LaRobley - Benchmark hunter "Holograph" does holocenes.com. He's a regular in this forum, and I'm sure he'll respond to you when he next looks in. Will

StripeMark - Re: JE0229 If you found the correct disk still attached to one of the pieces of the concrete rubble being used as fill, you would have one of the rarest of benchmark hunting opportunities: a confirmable destroyed station. In over 2,000 logs, I have exactly one. I would love to find a disk mounted in rubble: I would call it a Geocaching DESTROYED, I'm sure I could get an NGS DESTROYED, and I would walk away with a round, bronze trophy. Will

John (oldfarts) - I will take the opportunity to speak for everybody who reports recoveries to the NGS or gives any weight whatsoever to the NGS' standards for recoveries when I say that we are not disappointed in the least that you choose to pursue this activity as a hobby without regard to the voluntary NGS connection. Your thoughts and practices on the matter are well known and I don't know of anybody that has any criticism of your approach. (Well, maybe I know of one or two people, but let's not start rattling cages here). I think the vast majority of benchmark hunters approach the activity the same way you (plural) do, and that's perfectly OK with me and everybody else. Whenever I mention the NGS, I do not mean to imply that there is anything wrong with an NGS-free life, and such suggestion should not be inferred. Will

Oh, and another thing. If a station is defined by SCALED coordinates and you find a headwall with what appears to be a stem sticking out, absent a properly-stamped disk, to what degree can you be sure you found the station. In many (most) cases, not very sure. I think this is the first time that we are discussing a standard that is greater than that used by NGS. Will

With respect to the last two things Black Dog Trackers said, I agree (and I do, especially to edit the Geocaching log to reflect that NGS has reclassified a station as destroyed). It takes a little more tracking and record-keeping, but I think it is a good thing to do. I also share BDT's non-specific memory about the usability of Scaled Stem-no-disk cases and, as I mentioned above, that's how I've logged a bunch of them (that is, as NOT FOUND). Now, if I can get either BDT or ArtMan, plus CallawayMT and one other bona fide surveyor to agree to the efficacy of the bicknell/StripeMark rule as articulated, above, I may go back and pick up another several dozen "FOUND" marks. Cool. Will

Standards: Geocaching vs. NGS. I agree, generally the same standards for reporting with two exceptions (one common, one rare): 1. Common exception: A razed water tank is DESTROYED for Geocaching, NOT FOUND for NGS (unless I go to the trouble of sending an e-mail with photos to Deb, which I used to do all the time but do less now.) 2. Rare exception: A disk mounted vertically in the wall of a large, brick municipal incinerator. The incinerator building has been razed and the location is now a paved parking lot. There is nothing that looks remotely like an incinerator or the remains of an incinerator for a great distance in all directions. This could be a NOTE (I couldn't even search for it) for Geocaching, and a NOT FOUND (the building is gone) for NGS. NGS doesn't have a NOTE, and I don't log a found or not found unless I get out of the truck and purposefully look for something. Another observation: For situations where the disk has been removed but the stem remains solid in its setting, logging "FOUND" (in poor condition or found-destroyed) for Geocaching and "FOUND IN POOR CONDITION" for NGS applies only (in my considered opinion) if the location is described by ADJUSTED horizontal coordinates. If the location is SCALED, surviving stems are NOT FOUND. That's my opinion and practice. If a great number of other benchmark hunters disagree, I gladly will go back and change about 100 of my "NOT FOUNDs" to FOUND. When a SCALED horizontal coordinate disk is removed, I think its vertical precision is degraded to the point that it is rendered unusable. Am I correct? Will

larobey - Good job on the new list. Kudos, also, for giving Holocenes.com the proper attribution (in this forum and on your site). He's one of our peeps and deserves the credit you gave him for his outstanding service to our community. I found your list interesting because of benchmark hunter DCJ. All the other names on the list are familiar to me but DCJ is a new one. Over 1,000 found (and all the logs have pictures). BTW - who is the other pure benchmark hunter? If I may suggest one change: call us benchmark hunters. While most of us have done caching, we do view the two activites as being distinct. The term "Benchmark Cacher" is just confusing as it blurs the distinction between tupperware, on the one hand, and critical components of our national infrastructure, on the other. Again, nice job and welcome to this forum. Will

mloser - Excellent description of a good technique. When the references are too far (or too few) to run a tape triangulation and I'm working under a clear sky, I've used your technique to find marks with adjusted coordinates with good success. W

Difficult Run - Kudos on the find. I've been through the Great Falls area (as you have seen). It's beautiful, but I haven't had much success finding marks there. Also, well done on finding the remains of HV1776; another one that stumped me. Will

deerslayer2 - from the main geocaching page, click on "Find a benchmark" at the benchmark hunting page, read the FAQ that starts with "What is a benchmark?". for some reason, I just new that you were knew to this. Will

There's a lot of that going around. See HU0453 - CAMDEN and HU2363 - CAMDEN RESET In the 1985 history for CAMDEN, MD State Highway Authority notes that the station is DESTROYED and then proceeds to describe its replacement, CAMDEN RESET. I was confused initially, but eventually found CAMDEN RESET and did not find CAMDEN. Of course, the USPSQD "found" the destroyed station in 1997 but made no mention of the replacement. BTW, the MDSHA is the best state benchmark management agency that I've come across (even though they managed to confuse me monentarily on this particular mark). Will

PFF - I am also curious as to who are logging "paper only" recoveries. The Farts ("old" is a relative thing, and they are not "old" relative to me) are correct: there may be a reasonable explanation for the apparent untoward behavior (or, there may not). StripeMark - I disagree with your point about eliminating numbers. This may be a hobby but it is more than just "play" (aka objectless behavior). We who hunt have an objective: to determine and report on the existence and condition of things with PIDs. I see nothing wrong with the enumeration of that activity, even if some people do it for no other reason than the enumeration. Those of us who pursue the hobby with some degree of integrity know who we all are. That's what really matter, I think. Also, I think the "numbers" are a reasonable, if imperfect, measure of effort. And effort expended in pursuit of an objective is good (assuming the objective is legal and moral). Generally, anything worth doing is worth measuring; anything not worth measuring is not worth doing. There are exceptions, of course, but I wouldn't include hunting benchmarks among the exceptions. I agree with ddnutzy - Holograph does a service that is a great (and good) effort, and that provides information of value to the community. I appreciate his contribution and I hope he continues. Finally, I think I disagree with m&h: if you make the effort to search for a mark but don't find it, why not say so. I don't understand the reluctance to "pad" your list of unsuccessful searches. If it's an effort made, why not an effort recorded? Please don't take this as criticism, I really don't care if you log your not founds or not. But you took the effort to disclose your approach, so I'm just taking the effort to exercise my curiosity. In the interest of full disclosure, I am a retired CPA and have been accused of being obsessive-compulsive about things of an accounting nature, especially by those who love me and suffer most from my habits. Will

Harry - Whatever your motivation is for hunting a mark, you still get kudos for finding a mark that I couldn't find and that (probably) a dozen or so other benchmark hunters decided not to look for. I suspect that BDT would say the same thing re: KU4567. While argument and sarcasm are not unknown in these fora, sometimes a compliment is just a compliment. Will

Interesting thread. I have three things to say: First, Harry Dolphin - congrats on finding HV1837. You found a mark that I failed to find. Interestingly, you found a mark that, probably, several hunters passed on (given the extent of hunting on the Mall and the accessibility of this mark, maybe dozens). Maybe they passed on it because I logged it as NOT FOUND. Thumbs up to you for your scepticism. You have much more work to do, however, as I have failed to find 573 benchmarks. Second, I agree with the Renegade Knight - the retail price of gasoline is (except in the occasional instance of illegal price gouging) determined by supply and demand. Big oil should be making a good profit in this market. In the long run, the return on invetsment of Big Oil is not much better than you could get from a decent certificate of deposit. In a commodities market driven higher by uncertainty and speculation, companies that successfully hedge the price of their raw materials earn a profit and stay in business. Those that don't, don't. I also agree with the Knight that rationing would be disasterous - I remember the mid-70's very clearly. I would much rather pay $3.00 + for gas than not have it available at all. Finally (full disclosure - I don't own an SUV nor do I own an economy car. the average for my two vehicles is a bit over 20 mpg). I prefer not to demonize SUV drivers. The consumption of non-renewable resources, like oil, is a global challenge. But SUV drivers are not evil (as some of the comments, above, suggest) because they consume more energy than 99% of the people in the world. Even if you get 30 mpg, you're still consuming more energy than 98% of the people on the planet. So, you're a little less evil, but just a little. If I were inclined to demonize anybody, I'd get a donkey and demonize all internal combustion fans (like me). ALL things considered, it may be better to drive an SUV than something more fuel efficient. The Knight is right again: Overall efficiency is a life-cycle measure, and not merely a measure of today's mpg. To me, the ability to haul sheetrock is very very important. So, I drive a pickup, even when I don't need any sheetrock. My choice, and I'll be as evil as I can afford to be. Will edited to add p.s. p.s. I seldom haul sheetrock; maybe once every three or four years. I just want to be able to if the need ever arises.

Great! Another series of commemorative benchmarks that I can (must?) recover. Actually, CallawayMT already gave me a heads-up on the Forest Service series. BuckBrooke - make room on your website!! Will

Looks like it was made by a cannon ball during the Battle of Bitter Springs. Good find! w

Good job, Eagle.

TerraVador - Assuming that your arm length/hand spread size is within a few standard deviations of the mean, that's an excellent technique for estimating 15 degrees above the horizon. It seems I usually leave my inclinometer in the truck, especially when the mark is a ten-minute hike in. But I've yet to leave my hand in the truck. BTW, nice bike. Will

"I got 'dis same car." "Really?" "No." I don't think I can add anything of value to this conversation, I prefer to use paper datasheets and paper toposheets. Of course, both my cars have manual transmissions, I think Rubber Soul on vinyl sounds better, and I prefer the Canon FTb to the Canon Powershot. I know that several (many?) good benchmark hunters are paperless. I think CallawayMT is. I wonder what system Me & Bucky uses. I kill trees. But using paper also helps me find benchmarks. I read the datasheet before I decide to hunt for the mark, I read it again when I print it out, I read it again when I plot the station's approximate location on my paper toposheet, and I read it again when I draw my schematic ("34.33 feet southeast of the road and 4.5 feet southwest of the pole") on the bottom of my paper datasheet. It's a lot of grinding preparation, I know, but, by the time I go into the field, I have a pretty good idea of where the mark is well before I get close enough to park my truck. I (generally) don't go where I'm not supposed to. But when I'm somewhere that I think I can be and run into someone who thinks I shouldn't be there, I do show them a datasheet. Seems to work. On two occasions, I've been asked to produce ID. After I do, I politely but firmly request that they address me as "Colonel". That seems to work too. w

Art - Yes, I've always wondered if the crew (in this neighborhood, it is possible that the "crew" was the homeowner and a couple of buddies - long tradition of self-built homes in Perth Amboy and vicinity), while doing landscaping associated with the construction/renovation, decided to do a "public service" and re-monumented the disk. Alternatively, the station could have been set at the same time that the house was going up and the state agency used some excess bricks from the construction to make this peculiar monument. In any event, I suspect that there's a mildly interesting story behind it. Maybe on one of my regular visits to the area (my Dad lives just down the street), I'll knock on the door and see if the current residents know anything about it. w

marty - That's an interesting mark, but it's not in either the Geocaching or NGS databases. It is the classic no-PID mark, of which there are gazillions. I like this particular mark because it is set in the top of a brick cube that's about three feet on a side. The bricks used to make the cube are identical (style, color and approx. age) to the bricks used to build the house that lies immediately southeast. I've often wondered if the crew that built the house noticed the mark near the curb and re-monumented it as a public service. ArtMan - how in the world did you find the reference for this no-PID in my recovery of KV5847? Will see KV5847 for photos of the disk and brick monument. p.s. marty, you say this disk is near where you work. Where do you work? w

Eagle - Looking at your photo at EX0008, here's what I would do: If I was sure that I was at the correct lighthouse, and I was sure that the step in the photo is at the entrance on the west side of the lighthouse (that is, the photo is looking east), and I poked and probed and, maybe, scraped through the moss and dirt that appears to be immediately to the north (left as we look at it) of the step, and I failed to find the disk, then I would log this as NOT FOUND in Geocaching, and as NOT FOUND in NGS, as well. Occasionally, I'll fail to find a mark but will not report the NOT FOUND recovery to NGS because either I did not do as thorough a search as I would have liked OR, even after a thorough search, I still think that another thorough hunter may very well find the mark that eluded me (and many marks have eluded me; sometimes, large groups of marks actively conspire to elude me.) It's interesting that a single Power Squadron member reported the mark as GOOD on 12/15/02 and then, again, two days later. That's thorough!! Will

Spoo - My two cents, the ArtMan is correct. If, as you describe, the stem is there and in its original (adjusted coordinates) position, I would log this as FOUND IT with an explanation. I think that this would also stand up as a "found in poor condition" recovery for NGS. I have found several such stations and I usually describe them in an e-mail to Deb before I do a recovery report. She has always advised me to submit them as "found in poor condition". Will

BDT is correct. I would log EX0345 as DESTROYED on Geocaching. Then, I would do an NGS recovery report as NOT FOUND with the explanation that the lighthouse no longer occupies the location of the published coordinates. Then, I would send an e-mail to Deb Brown with an explanation an a few photos, and I would recommend that NGS reclassify the station as DESTROYED. After the NGS datasheet reflected the new (destroyed) status, I would go back to the Geocaching datasheet and update my log to reflect the fact that the station was destroyed and that the destruction pre-dates the numerous FOUND IT logs. Of course, this is just a game and all that I suggest, above, is optional. w