Rich in NEPA

KV2820 I believe this to be another prime example of why it's not a good idea to be suggesting the reporting of survey mark recoveries to the NGS by over-zealous amateurs. A blind man could have found this one! Good thing I decided to check for nearby “skulls” before driving down to this area on Friday. Also, the problem with the benchmarking website searches that show Not Founds as destroyed ("skulls") even after a more recent recovery reports it as Found, really needs some immediate attention. Administrators, are you listening?! I don't have an issue with flagging current Not Founds with the skull icons, but they should be listed in all normal searches, too. Oh, and does anyone know when the database is going to be updated??? Now that this activity is receiving positive recognition from the NGS (Thank you, DaveD!) and the surveying community in general, isn't it time to put more effort into fixing the obviously serious problems instead of like, umm ... worrying about the color of unvisited links on the benchmark pages?! Please DO NOT let these fine opportunities die through shear neglect. Thanks. Cheers ... ~Rich in NEPA~ --- A man with a GPS receiver knows where he is; a man with two GPS receivers is never sure. ---

Does anyone know what these markings respresent? I found them on the maple tree referenced in the description to reach the azimuth mark for KV3863. (It's suprising that they would still be there after 34 years.) Cheers ... ~Rich in NEPA~ --- A man with a GPS receiver knows where he is; a man with two GPS receivers is never sure. ---

With a WAAS signal present and using an active remote antenna under open sky I typically see single-digit accuracy figures, and low-to-mid teens under slightly less ideal conditions. Heavy tree cover is still a bigger problem. At adjusted horizontal control stations my position fixes are generally very stable and amazingly 3 out of 5 times they match the NGS coordinates precisely to the least significant decimal, and the remaining times the lat/lon difference is less than 12 feet (that is, one or two least significant decimals). The photo above is from a tri-station (KV3863) that was recovered this past Friday. It's not unusual for me to see this kind of agreement at known coordinates. Cheers ... ~Rich in NEPA~ --- A man with a GPS receiver knows where he is; a man with two GPS receivers is never sure. ---

Howdy, Dave! This is certainly a timely and encouraging development. But I have a couple of questions concerning update submissions of this type. Does someone at NGS carefully review these submissions before they are officially added to the datasheets? Also, is only one update per PID allowed? How would that work if there were more than one submission (involving either GPS coordinates or photographs)? For example, if someone submits autonomous GPS coordinates, and then later someone else submits differential GPS coordinates. Thanks for your efforts. I'm much more enthused about pursuing my amateur benchmark recoveries after hearing of this. Cheers ... ~Rich in NEPA~ --- A man with a GPS receiver knows where he is; a man with two GPS receivers is never sure. ---

quote:Originally posted by Fungirl: Last weekend I walked side-by-side with an etrex user. He had 4 or 5 satellites the whole time...I had nothing. Howdy, FG! Be aware that the Map76 series has a different type of antenna than the eTrex series. Whereas the eTrex's patch antenna needs to be orientated upward (holding the unit horizontally in front of you with the Garmin logo facing the overhead sky), the Map76's quad-helix antenna needs to be orientated vertically (holding the unit vertically in front of you with the Garmin logo staring you in the face). This will ensure proper reception. Also, holding the unit as high as you can and as far away from your body as possible will also aid reception, especially in dense woods. In those cases where I need to set my Map76 down onto a flat surface (such as next to a benchmark for inclusion in a photo—see pic) I resort to attaching an active remote patch-style antenna, like the type that's used in the eTrex. Hope this helps. Cheers ... ~Rich in NEPA~ --- A man with a GPS receiver knows where he is; a man with two GPS receivers is never sure. ---

quote:Originally posted by GeckoGeek: Keep in mind that the criteria for destroying landmarks (buildings, towers, etc.) are different then for disks. It's pretty hard to miss a radio tower if your anywhere in the area. Can you explain in what way they are different? I'm not sure that I follow you. It might be pretty hard to miss something as prominent as a tower, but it's still necessary to identify it as the correct tower and/or the original one. I'd think that this is where a little research would be required, perhaps a visit to the local library to find old photos, etc. By leaving the determination of a destroyed mark up to qualified individuals (at NGS), the only thing I as an amateur benchmark recoverer need to worry about is whether to log my search as "Found" or "Not Found," based on positive identification. If I don't know that a tower, for example, is the same one in the datasheet description, then it's no different than if I find a drill hole where a disk should be. The criteria for logging a Geocache find is in essence signing the logbook. (If the cache is missing, it's not enough to say that I'm pretty sure I know where it was hidden in order to claim a find!) I'm merely suggesting that the criteria for logging a benchmark find ought to be in essence positive identification. Sure, sometimes it might be difficult to do, just like looking for a well-hidden cache. More than once I've looked for hours only to discover that a cache was indeed missing, and I was sincere enough to log it as "Not Found." But each of us has to decide how much that challenge means to us. If the form for logging benchmark searches on the website were to include a picklist of conditions, it would still be mostly a subjective choice, but there's also the option of posting a message to the forum to ask for qualified help. Perhaps it would be a good idea to have a resident moderator for the benchmark forum who is a surveying professional with a knowledge of NGS practices. Cheers ... ~Rich in NEPA~ --- A man with a GPS receiver knows where he is; a man with two GPS receivers is never sure. ---

quote:Originally posted by Four Summerlin Rats: I submitted it to Deb Brown and the NGS database has been updated. Why would this mark be "Not Found" when it clearly passes the NGS standard for "Destroyed"? Howdy, FSR! If the "Destroyed" option were eliminated, that particular mark would be logged as "Found" since you have positively identified it, but its condition would be described as "destroyed." I agree that the common terms should have different meanings between the Geocaching section and the benchmark section. (It's also one of the reasons it is so difficult to check the Not Found option when your search turns up only the hole where the disk should be!) Until things change and the benchmark section is taken more seriously by its administrators, limiting the logging options to "Found," "Not Found," and "Note" may very well be the better solution. The way I see the problem with the benchmarking logs is that some people (notably the more qualified professionals on this forum) feel that even though a mark is missing or destroyed (by NGS standards), the station itself may still be useable. Let's look at the two examples I used earlier. I had originally logged LY1342 as destroyed but was informed that since a surveyor could still use the station for leveling purposes I should have logged it as "Not Found" instead. And, I said that I agreed with a "Not Found" in this case for utilitarian purposes. I could probably send in a recovery report to NGS describing the situation and let them decide how to list it on the official datasheet. There's little doubt in my mind that Deb Brown would describe it as destroyed, based on the evidence. Nor could I log it as "Found" for the simple reason that I could not positively identify it (as you were able to do with JERK RM1, even though it is only a reference mark and not the station mark). What I'm saying is that in the case of our benchmarking logs, the criteria for "Found" versus "Not Found" is identification. As GeckoGeek pointed out above, I could not be 100% sure that the hole I found in the rock belongs to LY1432! That brings me to the next example. Since LY2714 is a tri-station with two perfectly intact reference marks, even though the station disk is missing it can be positively identified as the correct station. In this situation I believe that it should properly be logged as "Found," with its condition listed as "Poor" but maybe not "Destroyed." Again, when submitting a recovery report to NGS, it should be left to them to determine how to list it on their datasheet. The description and photos will explain the situation completely. I'm convinced that if you think this through, you will see that eliminating the "Destroyed" option makes these situations easier to deal with. Perhaps the format for the log entry form should provide a series of radio buttons for indicating the condition of the marks. Does this make sense to anyone else, or am I way out in left field?! Cheers ... ~Rich in NEPA~ --- A man with a GPS receiver knows where he is; a man with two GPS receivers is never sure. ---

quote:Originally posted by MOCKBA: We are in a bind here, the existing categories of "Not Found" vs. "Destroyed" are just too wide to describe the reality adequately, yet adding more categories (like "Damaged / Recoverable"? ) is probably going to create even more confusion. I can't help wondering if the better solution wouldn't be to simplify things and do away with the "Destroyed" option for all logs on the benchmarking website. (At least for the time being—since it's painfully obvious that the benchmarking section is the oft-neglected stepchild of Geocaching.com and I don't expect these kinds of issues will ever get the administrative attention that they deserve!) A mark would be either "Found" or "Not Found." Which means it's positively identifiable or not, and in either case it's condition can/should be described. "Notes" could also be entered as usual for any other purposes. I agree the more "categories" that are available, the greater the chance for misinterpretation and confusion. I know that if I were to ever submit a destroyed/missing report to the NGS, I would merely provide all the evidence that I could and then leave it up to them to decide how to describe its condition on the datasheet. It's probably best for the sake of consistency that in these cases only one qualified individual or agency make that determination. Cheers ... ~Rich in NEPA~ --- A man with a GPS receiver knows where he is; a man with two GPS receivers is never sure. ---

quote:Originally posted by MOCKBA: But I saw elsewhere on this forum that for certain lower-precision BMs, the drill hole is in itself sufficient for positive recovery. Yes, I admit that there seems to be a lot of ambiguity and confusion as to how these situations should be logged. Even the NGS reporting guidelines are unclear and result in numerous conflicting reports. I understand the notion that in many cases a station is still useful/useable if the mark is missing, but that seems to be a decision best left to the user and his/her standards and needs at the time. The fact remains that the mark itself is indeed destroyed or missing. However, based on what seems to be the general consensus of this benchmark hunting community, I have changed my report for LY1342 to indicate "Not Found" as opposed to "Destroyed." I agree that it makes more sense from a utilitarian perspective. Since I am not very knowledgeable of the surveying profession, I do not presume myself to be qualified enough to submit an NGS report on any of my "amateur recoveries" (especially involving "Not Found" and "Destroyed" marks). When there are signs that a mark is missing there will always be doubt that this evidence refers to the mark in question. (It's logically impossible to prove a negative.) So, it all boils down to a matter of degrees of certainty—that is, how much evidence is there and how reliable is it. That's why I attempt to provide clear photographs, reasonably close GPS coordinates, and whatever other visible evidence I can recover at the site, given my own personal resources. As I learn more and more during my benchmark hunting activities, I am (hopefully) improving my methods of logging my recoveries on the benchmarking website (we definitely need more precisely defined guidelines and standardized formats), with the intent that someday all this information will be recognized as having significant professional value. quote:Incidentally Rich - what kind of automation and robotics? Not liquid handling robots by chance? I worked in the color television picture tube industry for over 23 years in a highly automated manufacturing facility. Our equipment handled everything from the transfer of hot glass panels and funnels, precision assembly, process chemistry and acid/caustic washes, welding, packaging and warehousing, painting/striping/gluing, electronic testing and high-voltage aging, quality assurance and data logging, sizing and inspection, and many other industrial control tasks. Cheers ... ~Rich in NEPA~ --- A man with a GPS receiver knows where he is; a man with two GPS receivers is never sure. ---

quote:Originally posted by Waterboy With Wife (www): Of course we would like you to consider one of our caches, we will not put out a cache unless it is at least a two mile hike one way. Howdy, Mike & Kieu! Thanks for the kind review of Cary Mountain. I consider it one of the finest compliments I could receive. I'm still hoping to get down to Eagles Nest. It's been on my watchlist for well over a year and sounds wonderful. I've never been disappointed with any of WWW's A-T cache hunts, and every one I have done still brings back exciting memories. Thanks so much! Cheers ... ~Rich in NEPA~ --- A man with a GPS receiver knows where he is; a man with two GPS receivers is never sure. ---

Howdy, TP! Here's a couple of photos from two stations that were found with missing marks. In the first photo (LY2714) the stem still remains in the hole. In the 2nd and 3rd pics (LY1342) the entire disk has been removed. The hole for the stem appears to be about 5/8-inch diameter. Not sure about the depth. Cheers ... ~Rich in NEPA~ --- A man with a GPS receiver knows where he is; a man with two GPS receivers is never sure. ---

Thank you all! There's one thing I'd like to point out that may not be readily apparent and that is without all of those great caches out there this kind of feat would not be possible. So it is with no hesitation that I'd like to express my gratitude for the time and effort and creativity all of you put into placing Geocaches that were (and are) truly worth getting up early for. Thanks to all of you I have discovered some incredibly beautiful places and met some really amazing people, and all the while I had a terrific time and lots of fun doing it. I'm amazed at all the wonderful memories I have of each and every cache I have visited. I can honestly say that very few, if any of them were done in a "cache-and-dash" manner just for the numbers. I've tried to savor the entire process involved in getting there and finding them, and I often spent hours in and around the cache sites and on the trails poking around, exploring and taking photos, or lounging at the great vistas enjoying the experience and the sunshine (whenever we actually had any sunshine around here!). Cheers ... ~Rich in NEPA~ --- A man with a GPS receiver knows where he is; a man with two GPS receivers is never sure. ---

Howdy, Mark! What a "mega-milestone" you've reached. That is so C-O-O-L. Hearty congrats! Cheers ... ~Rich in NEPA~ --- A man with a GPS receiver knows where he is; a man with two GPS receivers is never sure. ---

Waterboy With Wife is a highly recommendable team. Join 'em! Cheers ... ~Rich in NEPA~ --- A man with a GPS receiver knows where he is; a man with two GPS receivers is never sure. ---

Congratulations to Kevin & Aimie on their 100th find and for accomplishing this feat in less than a year of caching. I'm honored that you chose Cary Mountain for your milestone cache hunt, and it's especially significant since your very first cache find (Seven Tubs) was one that I placed, too. Keep up the fine work. It's always a pleasure meeting you on the trails. Cheers, and happy caching ... ~Rich in NEPA~ --- A man with a GPS receiver knows where he is; a man with two GPS receivers is never sure. ---

Thumbs up to both of you! Keep up the good work. Cheers ... ~Rich in NEPA~ --- A man with a GPS receiver knows where he is; a man with two GPS receivers is never sure. ---

Next Saturday (August 16th) on WOLF TV (channel 5 for most cable viewers) at 10:30pm (right after the Fox56 local news) yours truly, ~Rich in NEPA~, along with Zhanna (Queen of Benchmarks) will be the featured guests of Bob Ide, the host & producer of "The Great Outdoors." The topic will be ... Geocaching! Be sure to tune in and watch me make a complete fool of myself (Zhanna was certainly the one with the real TV-genic qualities). Seriously, though, I think the taping went OK, and the show will include an off-the-cuff interview with the two of us, and a very brief look at the sport where we guide the host on his first cache hunt in a local park. (I hope we didn't let too much misinformation slip by. It's a lot harder than it looks.) Cheers ... ~Rich in NEPA~ --- A man with a GPS receiver knows where he is; a man with two GPS receivers is never sure. ---

Hey, Andy! If the First Finder's prize is that new GPSr of yours. You're going to lose it anyway, right?! Nice to see that you're back. ~Rich in NEPA~ --- A man with a GPS receiver knows where he is; a man with two GPS receivers is never sure. ---

Here's what I've been doing, as an example. Many State parks have large, colorful, pre-folded trash bags at their visitor centers. I acquired a pile of them just for the asking (these happened to come from High Point S.P. in New Jersey), and I seal them in 3½x5 plastic bags while pressing the air out between two pieces of stiff cardboard. This makes them extremely flat so that they take up very little space in a cache. I generally leave a couple along with my usual assortment of sealed State Park maps at many of the caches I visit. Cheers ... ~Rich in NEPA~ --- A man with a GPS receiver knows where he is; a man with two GPS receivers is never sure. ---

quote:Originally posted by Mxyzptlk:I guess we should start producing chlorofluorocarbons again because the Ozone hole is a bunch of crock too. Oh, absolutely!!! quote:There really are eco-nuts, and anti-eco-nuts; the truth REALLY is somewhere in between. Let me add that the environmental-wackos have, at the very least, taken a clear stand, which I consider to be a greater virtue and a more admirable position than being a cowardly, noncommittal, middle-of-the-road "agnostic" about the issues. Cheers ... ~Rich in NEPA~ --- A man with a GPS receiver knows where he is; a man with two GPS receivers is never sure. ---

Eastern Milk Snake caught sunning himself in early Spring at Big Pine Hill near Thornhurst, PA. Cheers ... ~Rich in NEPA~ --- A man with a GPS receiver knows where he is; a man with two GPS receivers is never sure. ---

quote:Originally posted by Buzz_Lightfoot: I was reacting to the idiocity of the opinion of the person who Zhanna quoted. People like that who, by making outrageous claims to further their own agendas, disturb me. I fear the harm that they can do because they make their arguments sound so logicical to those who are easily swayed. That is the awful power of fanatics. The power that can lure people into a cult and convice them all to commit mass suicide, for example. The way I see it, BL, (and by your own definition above) it was Rachel Carson who was the lunatic fanatic who seduced millions of people into believing luridly false and misleading claims, and created a worldwide cult following which in effect has committed mass suicide and manslaughter (this topic did start out about the lives of children and others being inflicted with tick-borne diseases, right?). By appealing to raw emotions and relying on the spread of panic and unjustified fears over some (highly dubious) global catastrophe, she (along with her "followers") succeeded in banning the use of DDT and indirectly sacrificed the lives of untold numbers of human beings for the sake of fishes, birds, animals, and "the planet." The sad part is that most of them never knew they were being sacrificed, understood why, or that it was done under the guise of a noble cause! (I suppose you can thank our modern anti-reason, socially progressive, politically correct, government-controlled, tenth rate education system for that.) It's the exact the same method that the mankind-hating eco-freaks of today are applying to a new generation of "believers" with their gloom-and-doom "Global Warming" prophecies. (Oh, and weren't these the same people who 10 years earlier were forecasting total global annihilation due to a coming ice age?!) I happen to agree with Steve Milloy's well-reasoned arguments for the elimination, or at least the temporary suspension of the ban on DDT. Lyme Disease is real, deadly, and it's spreading. I suggest that people think about this carefully the next time they are outdoors trying to enjoy "nature" and have to remove a disease-ridden tick from theirs or their child's flesh. Cheers ... ~Rich in NEPA~ --- A man with a GPS receiver knows where he is; a man with two GPS receivers is never sure. ---

quote:Originally posted by Buzz_Lightfoot:And if you look long enough you'll find someone who claims that nuclear radiation is not harmful and will provide "proof" using junk science, all the while claiming that the rest of the world's viewpoint is based on junk science. Eco-nuts and anti-eco-nuts are just that, nuts. The truth lies somewhere between the extremes. The difficulty is having the wisdom to determine truth from fanaticism. Howdy, BL! You make it sound like reason and logic are nothing more than a matter of someone's opinion. Aristotle was the first philosopher to explain that a thing is what it is—that existence exists! That means it is possible to know what's true and what isn't. Either the Earth is flat or it isn't. The truth isn't "somewhere in between." It has been shown that low-level doses of radiation and of even highly toxic substances can have a beneficial, life-prolonging effect on living organisms, including humans. The term for this is "hormesis." ~Rich in NEPA~ --- A man with a GPS receiver knows where he is; a man with two GPS receivers is never sure. ---

What this country needs is a good dose of DDT every couple of years. Seriously. ~Rich in NEPA~ --- A man with a GPS receiver knows where he is; a man with two GPS receivers is never sure. ---

Wooo-eeee!!! Nice going, JB. Cheers ... ~Rich in NEPA~ --- A man with a GPS receiver knows where he is; a man with two GPS receivers is never sure. ---