Firth of Forth

Take a teenager with you. They will be so embarrased at their parent(s) activity, that they will warn you of the approach of muggles, even if they are hundreds of feet away.

It's not just geocachers who have this problem. I have a friend who is a keen birdwatcher, and similarly rummages around in the undergrowth, usually with a pair of binoculars. He emerged from the bushes on one occasion, to be accused by a lady horserider of being "a pervert". In fact, when we compared notes, birdwatching is a very similar acitivity to geocaching. There is the thrill of the hunt, the anticipation of not being quite sure what you will find, the disappointment of not being able to find, the treks into wild places etc etc.

You might even get a few from North of the Border for that event - that is if they're welcome

I would like to echo Team Clova's sentiments. It would appear that a great many people enjoy the lighter side of geocaching, and only a few don't. Without it, I think that the Forum would become a very boring place.

"Subsection (1)" is a legalistic quotation of irrelevance to the question about whether or not we as geocachers are required by our own rules to seek permission to place geocaches. Do we need to seek permission? Or do we not? That is the question. No, it's not the question that I thought was the subject of the debate. The answer to your question has been made several times in this thread by several different people: Yes, g.com requires that permission is sought for a cache placement. You said it yourself earlier in this thread: there is no special dispensation for Scottish cachers. The interesting question is whether there should be, given that the laws of access in Scotland are, or are about to be, different and more liberal than in most other countries. And I agree with FFB that the situation is unlikely to be clarified for some time. Very interesting reading Mr Snaik. Clearly even the powers that be haven't always known whether or not Scotland has a law of trespass. It's obviously a very muddy area!

repeated post

The Botanical Gardens in Edinburgh is not a place where one can exercise one's rights of access, as it is covered by special byelaws. In fact it was myself and another local cacher who had concerns about the placement of a cache there for which permission had not been granted, and it was quickly removed by the owners before it was accidentally discovered by a gardener. You could try seeking permission from whoever is in charge of the Botanics, but I doubt that they would give it. The regulations governing the area prohibit even pushing a bicycle through it, or having a picnic. I don't think that they would be happy about geocachers searching around in the undergrowth. What I did not know, and have just discovered, is that the Scottish Outdoor Access Code does not come into force until early next year.

"Subsection (1) provides that the exercise of access rights does not of itself amount to trespass" The Outdoor Access code specifies certain places where one is not allowed to exercise rights of access, such as land on which there is a house or caravan or other building, land on which crops are growing, sports pitches, school playgrounds, golf course, historic sites where an entrance fee is payable etc. Yes, accessing such areas without permission would no doubt result in prosecution for trespass. Unfortunately this debate may not be resolvable by lay people like ourselves, as it hinges on interpretations of the law. I would really like a lawyer or MSP to tell me that geocaching is outwith the bounds of the Scottish Outdoor Access Code.

I think that this narrow interpretation of the new outdoor access code is debatable. The code specifically seeks not to define what recreational purposes are, and includes anything that is lawful and reasonable. Is geocaching an unlawful or unreasonable activity? I don't think so. The code does specifically define what is excluded: any unlawful or criminal activity; breaches of the peace; poaching, vandalism, not cleaning up after your dog fouls, letting you dog worry livestock, dropping litter, poluting water and disturbing wild birds, animals or plants; hunting, shooting and fishing; motorised activities; taking away anything on or in the land or water for the purpose of commercial gain or profit. Geocaching, as an outdoor pasttime promoting CITO, engaged in by responsible people and monitored by approvers etc etc would certainly seem to be a recreational activity within the spirit of the new law. In England probably. Why should it cause a problem if geocaching is an activity that resides within what is considered a reasonable outdoor pursuit according to the Scottish Outdoor Access Code? The problem is that geocaching.com won't approve caches for which permission has not been sought, and I presume that it's a blanket rule to cover themselves in countries where the access laws are not so liberal.

Readers of this thread might like to note a post today by Snaik on the 'Resources for cachers in the Uk and Irelant' pinned thread: "For Information, file is PDF On 1 July 2004 the Scottish Outdoor Access Code (PDF) was approved by resolution of the Scottish Parliament, having received Ministerial approval, with modifications, in May. The Access Code will provide guidance on responsible behaviour for recreational users, and on responsible land management in relation to the new rights. Scottish Outdoor Access Code (PDF)" The pertinent part (and I know this has been discussed before here, but some time ago) is "You can exercise these rights, provided you do so responsibly, over most land and inland water in Scotland, including mountains, moorland, woods and forests, grassland, margins of fields in which crops are growing, paths and tracks, rivers anjd lochs, the coast and most parks and open spaces. Access rights can be exercised at any time of the day or night. You can exercise access rights for recreational purposes (such as pasttimes, family and social activities) and more active pursuits like horse riding, cycling, wild camping and taking part in events, educational purposes (concerned with furthering a person's understanding of the natural and cultural heritage), some commercial purposes (where the activities are the same as those done by the general public) and for crossing over land and water." So, although geocaching is not specifically mentioned, I am sure that it would be covered as a pasttime. Access rights are therefore much more than just being able to wander freely. I accept that it is only geocaching.com who insists on permission being sought, rather than what is legally required by Scots law. And I'm sorry Eckington to stir the can of worms once again, but surely that's what these forums are for: to debate such issues.

Since the thread which provoked this one has been locked, I am happy to do likewise with this one.

And I don't see myself as British, English or Scottish, although I have lived in all those places, and have several passports.

I've since had an email from Eckington. Apparently Highland Nick's cache isn't actually on land owned by Cairngorm Mountain Litd. I have done this cache, and it is alongside one of the many well walked paths from one of the ski lifts. The issue for this one appears to be that the approvers are requesting that permission be sought from the Forestry Commission. Once again (and I don't really want to stir up the debate that has already appeared here on the Forums) it raises the issue of whether permission for the placement of caches is always necessary in Scotland, because the laws of access are different.

Now corrected, thanks! (I did say it was only a beta ) Sorry Teasel, I have no idea what a beta version is - being technologically challenged. So will this solve the map problem, or are you still looking for donations to help improve them?

That looks great. It is, however, showing very old archived caches.

So, is this one, which is in a completely different place, also in a particularly sensitive area?

This is taken from a cache placed on Cairngorm by the Sky High Boys: "November 23 by Eckington (3 found) I have been contacted by the landowners of the property on which the cache is located: "It has come to our attention that a cache has been made on the Cairngorm Estate, on ground that is designated under both UK and EU law as being of high conservation value (SSSI, SPA and cSAC). It would appear that at no stage has permission been sought for these caches. This is contrary to the guidelines given on your website and I am therefore informing you of our intention to remove the cache in Coire an Lochain, placed on 27.07.2002 by sky high boys. It is sad to have to interfere with what would appear to be a commendable sport, encouraging people to get out and about in the open, but in this situation the ground chosen is not appropriate for such an activity and we are obliged to maintain the high conservation value of the estate." In view of this I am archiving the cache." So is the issue here that permission was not sought for this particular cache, or that the exact spot on Cairngorm was not suitable?

Wait until the summer months though - and then we can cache 24 hours a day without torches.

Yep and even I found it on sat :D so its not that hard Some might disagree with you on that one Deego! That the cache is easy I mean!

Congratulations Brian!! Good to see that you are over your caching lapse! And you will have to tell me where to find that one - I was definitely barking up the wrong tree!

Good suggestion Allieballie. It's worth a try - and don't feel too embarrassed phoning up about it. Remember that there are more than a handful of Scottish cachers who are also police officers. You could consider asking any of them for advice.

Gie'us!! We found it first! Lucky it wasn't these animals that the geocachers stumbled upon: "I live near Yellowstone park, so animal encounters are common around here. I am always amazed however at the proximity I often find myself from dangerous animals. Heres a pic from my last trip through the park. These Bison had my car surrounded and I was literally locked in for about 15 mins."

I don't cache in the dark if I can help it, but the short days up North make avoiding it very difficult! However, anyone who likes dark places may want to do Well 'Ard, a marathon in the Trossachs forests, part of which involves entering a long completely dark tunnel in a Victorian artifact. I didn't go in, sent my son in instead. All I could hear echoing out from the tunnel was 'You should see the size of these spiders!" And they were big...FoF log

No No No No No, that's not the way to do it! You make sure that your business trips take you to new caching grounds, charge lawyers for the time to travel there and back, petrol, expenses etc, do a bit of work and then go caching. Works a treat!