Taoiseach

I think that they should just hide another half a dozen Project A.P.E. caches, with at least one in Eastern Ontario!

CacheDrone won't even publish a terrain 1 without the wheelchair friendly icon. And as for the ten mile hike, like I said, I would warn of the length of the hike in the cache description, and recommend a bicycle or some other mode of transit (or parking closer). Length does not equal difficult terrain. A long hike on easy terrain is still easy terrain. That's what the 'Significant Hike' attribute is for.

Are there local forums in your area? Ottawa is lucky, because we not only have local forums, but we also have a mailing list, and consistently meet every Saturday for breakfast and caching. Actually, an event might not be a bad idea - What you could do is hold the event, and while there are a good number of people there, discuss starting either a GeoMob, or a mailing list. Usually in addition to the Saturday, there's at least two days out of the remaining six where there is an offer to go out

That one is on my short list as it's less than 50 miles from home. Hope the snow depth doesn't give you any trouble. In a few weeks I'll be heading to Rhode Island for a conference and hope to grab the oldest caches in RI and Connecticut. Both are a short distance from my planned travel route. Hmm. The Spot is off a "seasonal, limited use highway" (i.e. a dirt road), and a lot of snow just came through upstate NY. Hopefully, you can still grab it. Heck, I'd walk 2 miles to grab it, it's a great cache. No idea what the oldest cache in Connecticut is, but Brenton Point in RI is a nice cache, that you can park 500 feet from. I think that if we can get to and from The Spot in a day, there is almost a guarantee that we're going to get it. We're all pretty committed I'm really looking forward to Subway Cache too! Rochester Trip is getting closer! I went and got some American money today - Now I'm really getting excited!

So might a few other people who are in good shape and have no impediments to walking long distances--which is why it is a good idea not to change the number that drastically. Just because it isn't difficult for you to walk that far doesn't mean it isn't a challenge for most people. I'd be willing to bet the "average" person isn't used to walking ten miles in one day---and certainly not walking another ten miles back. I can walk a couple of miles on flat ground before I start to question the wisdom of being where I am. At four miles, I'm in real pain. I suffer that day, and the next, too. I have even greater difficulty walking up hill, even gentle grades. A mile of uphill grade can do the same thing to me that four miles of level hiking does to most other people. That doesn't mean I don't do longish hikes now and then, but if I am looking for a day without pain, I look for low rated terrain caches or I go on several shorter hikes and rest between them. I also change my rating up or down by as much as .5, but never more than that--even though what is a 2 for most people is a 3 or a 4 for me. Even if I personally disagree with how difficult or challenging the rating is, there must be some sort of consistency for the rating to be worth using at all. Fair enough, but I probably still would call that a 1 1/2 or 2, but make sure to add on the significant hike attribute or say that there is a rather long walk in the cache description. To be perfectly honest, after 10 miles, I'd probably be tired as well. Fortunately I am of a state that would allow me to be able to walk back, but I tend to not like to walk much more than 10 or 12 miles round trip. I still don't think that length alone is cause for a really high terrain rating - especially if it is pretty much all on a nice (& possibly paved) path

True, true... I tend to not use precedent for terrain, just my own judgement and experience with caches of differing terrain ratings (The only one that I haven't found yet is 4 1/2 (well, I have, but it was a misrated Island cache that hails from before the boat=5 terrain rule was really being enforced), coupled with those guidelines. I like precedent, though, because I often have a hard time judging the difficulty of my own puzzles

I like those definitions - There's a bit of a jump between Terrain 3 and Terrain 4 (I would likely call the Terrain 4 definition a Terrain 4 1/2). I'm not sure that I would call something a terrain 4 just because it is a ten mile hike. If it were a 10 mile hike on a nice trail, and then the cache was 100' off of the trail, I would probably still call it a terrain 1 1/2 or 2. I suggest doing what I do for difficulty ratings - Rarely are you going to come up with something that is entirely unique, so I always try to find a similar puzzle, and use it's difficulty rating as a precedent.

That one is on my short list as it's less than 50 miles from home. Hope the snow depth doesn't give you any trouble. In a few weeks I'll be heading to Rhode Island for a conference and hope to grab the oldest caches in RI and Connecticut. Both are a short distance from my planned travel route. Fortunately, We all have snowshoes and at a bare minimum Packrat will have a shovel. We managed to dig out a cache in Perth, ON called Road Island last Saturday - It was either on the ground, or very near to it (Once we found it, we stopped digging), but it was under more than three feet of packed snow! (I didn't find it, I had dug deeper though) That's one of the advantages of having a fairly large group with you

I bet your wife will be very happy! (...) Sorry, this is a family forum. I found GC43, Europe's First, earlier this year. beautiful cache. .. and this thread is really friggin old! Boo Hiss... ...And I'm not married, so...

I'll be there on Saturday! And I'll be getting two new icons as well (The other being a benchmark). I already have a Wherigo, but we're fortunately going down with another cacher who has an Oregon!

I'm so excited that I'm getting to find GC39 'The Spot' on Sunday!!!

Are you wanting stash notes, or log sheets/micro logs? If you're looking for Stash Notes, go with DiamondDaveG's suggestion. For micro logs, I just make them my self. For film canisters, I take six or seven 1 1/2" x 8 1/2" strips of paper, line them up nicely, put a couple of very small holes in the top, put a piece of fine (~18 gauge) wire through each of the holes, and put a piece of duct tape or hockey tape (whichever is within arms reach when I'm making it) and wrap it around the top. Same thing for any micro, just adjust the size as necessary

From that same thread I think that this sums up my feelings on the matter quite nicely

Let me hide one first...

Only because we are trying to reconcile what on the surface appear to be contradictory and confusing statements/interpretations/guidelines/experiences. I'm not married to one definition or another, I just want to know which we're using this week. From what I've gathered, for all intents and purposes, you need two things 1) The Letterbox Hybrid to use GPS Technology in some way 2) A Stamp (Preferably hand carved, but not necessarily) I don't know. Sounds like if that was all we needed the the LB-hybrid in the OP would have been approved. Sounds to me like the first set of coordinates need to lead to a second set of coordinates to qualify. Also sounds like we need to avoid starting off the coordinates in the parking lot or near a trail head. Looks like there's some middle of the woods requirement for starting coords too. Bear in mind what Keystone said though -

Only because we are trying to reconcile what on the surface appear to be contradictory and confusing statements/interpretations/guidelines/experiences. I'm not married to one definition or another, I just want to know which we're using this week. From what I've gathered, for all intents and purposes, you need two things 1) The Letterbox Hybrid to use GPS Technology in some way 2) A Stamp (Preferably hand carved, but not necessarily)

Ok, now we're just getting into semantics. The Important thing! - Would that get approved as a Letterbox Hybrid, even if it is only on the merit of the stamp? It's not semantics, it's the guidelines. Take the stamp away and you have a multi. Add the stamp and you have a letterbox hybrid. To really understand a letterbox hybrid you need to know the history of letterboxing vs. geocaching. When this site was started Jeremy saw the similarities between LBing and GCing and offered to host letterboxes here as well (their US website at the time was very rudimentary). LBers were aghast at the idea (us mixing with low brow geocachers? The horror!) so the idea was dropped, but not totally. Jeremy developed the idea of letterbox hybrids so that geocachers could create caches that appealed to both geocachers and letterboxers. The point was not to provide geocachers with a letterboxing experience. It was to place a box in the wild that both communities could enjoy. Be that as it may, the guideline is very murky, and frankly poorly written. The fortunate thing is that it is so ambiguous that it allows for practically anything to be a Letterbox Hybrid, as long as it has that all important stamp. Though I might think that there needs to be at least one other criterion in addition to the stamp and GPS usage, in a requirement for at least one stage to use traditional letterbox style clues, I'm happy with the guideline as I and apparently Keystone (and seemingly you, considering the fact that you have said that mine would be a Letterbox, based on the stamp) understand it. It doesn't prohibit me to hide what I consider a Letterbox Hybrid in a true sense. If Letterboxers once thought that about us, I'm sure that with the recent success, many letterboxers (particularly Letterbox Owners) wouldn't mind finding caches (or cachers finding letterboxes) as long as they do so using the traditional style. Thanks to the way the guidelines are written, it is possible (as per at least one that I have found, and Keystone's apparent agreement with me) to hide a Letterbox style cache, and call it a Letterbox Hybrid, as long as you meet those two criteria. If both of those criteria are met, and in the case of Mystery/Unknown caches just the GPS requirement, it really is possible to provide cachers with many different experiences, from Orienteering, to cryptography, to Old Irish Literature, to Letterboxing

Sounds like an on-site puzzle to me. To be perfectly honest, I do think that this one is an 'Unknown' cache (Not a Puzzle, but mot really a traditional) Here's a solution - Put a stamp in it and call it a Letterbox Hybrid

Excellent! I just hope that CacheDrone sees it the same way - Either way, I'll get to work on my cache soon!

Ok, now we're just getting into semantics. The Important thing! - Would that get approved as a Letterbox Hybrid, even if it is only on the merit of the stamp?

That shows a misunderstanding of the point of a letterbox hybrid. This is a geocaching website and we hide geocaches here. The point of a letterbox hybrid is not to provide geocachers with a letterbox-like experience. If they want that they should go to a letterboxing website. It is to allow geocachers to hide a container that is also available as a letterbox. This doesn't mean that someone can't hide a letterbox hybrid that gives letterbox type clues. I see them all the time and its called an offset cache. But for it to be listed on this website GPS use has to be an integral part of the hunt and for it to be called a letterbox hybrid then it needs to have a stamp. If I'm missing the point of a Letterbox Hybrid, then there is no point to having a separate cache type. It has nothing to do with letterboxing, it is simply a Geocache with a Stamp. I understand perfectly well that what we do here is 'Geocache,' however that being said, using the term 'letterbox' if letterboxing is not allowed is misleading, and should be grandfathered. An example of what a Letterbox Hybrid should be something like this (Just a made up version of a Letterbox Hybrid that I'm planning to make ----------------------------------------------- Go to the posted co-ordinates. Once at the posted co-ordinates, set a bearing of 100 degrees, and go 200 paces until you reach a house where a really 'cranky' man used to life. Continue on, underneath the bridge you see here, and when it's time. rise amongst the Valiants. At this time, cross the street, and pass by a memorial to our fallen soldiers. Continue along a bearing of 270 down a Street named for one of Philemon Wright's former 'employees.' Continue along until you meet a former local Magistrate named Daniel. Go south Down this street ten blocks before turning left for one block. Find a house that was once owned by a local Timber Baron. Near the Southeast corner of this house, there is a plaque. Mark a waypoint at this plaque, and adjust it to N45 _ _._ _x W075 _ _._ _x. What year was this house built? Continue south down a nearby street, and then west down a street named for a British Prime Minister, who was once named Ann. When you reach Toronto's Financial district, you will see a monument to some Barberpole clad warriors, next to a laundromat. What year did these Barberpole Warriors first claim their prize? Take the Year that the house was built, divide that by ten, round it to the nearest whole number and subtract 130. This equals XXX Take the year that the Barberpole warriors won their prize, and divide that by 100. That Equals Y.YYY Project a waypoint from the Plaque Y.YYY Miles along a bearing of XXX Degrees True. There you will find your prize ----------------------------------------- Of course it will have a hand-carved stamp (I've already made it), but this is what a 'Letterbox Hybrid' should be - Something that effectively is a Letterbox that requires the use of a GPSr I can't see this as being contradictory to the guidelines, but if it is, then perhaps the guidelines pertaining to Letterbox Hybrids need to be changed somehow.

Ok, that's what I always thought - Thanks for clearing that up. I can see how it can get a bit murky... I take it that my example would be ok?

Well, if that is the absolute end of it, then the term 'Letterbox' has no place in Geocaching., and should be grandfathered. Letterboxing is a clue-based game, and therefore a 'Letterbox Hybrid' should include elements of both. So many Letterbox Hybrids are just another Traditional that happens to have a stamp (Probably not even hand carved) in it. There is a reason that there is not a 'Traditional with a Stamp' icon. My understanding of the Groundspeak guideline is that GPS Technology must be included somehow. If Letterbox hybrids are only allowed to be traditionals, then why can't they be multis too? Similar to what Too Tall John did, I would include the two, but not in quite the same way. Nicely done as it seems, it still defeats the purpose. What I would have done is given the co-ords for the first stage, where you would get instructions (and no co-ordinates) for the second stage, which would give you both for the final. That way, there is a required letterboxing element. A Perfect example of what a 'Letterbox Hybrid' should be is 'Welcome to Windsor,' Which has you start at the posted co-ords, but then the remainder is a pure letterbox. That is the point of having Letterbox Hybrid as a separate cache type. (And I like the spot where you end up!) Technically then, shouldn't Wherigo caches have to start at the final co-ordinates, because you have to answer questions into the Cartridge, rather than using straight co-ordinates? Something that I'm going to do with a Letterbox hybrid that I'm planning, is have people letterbox their way through Downtown Ottawa, to a point, where I tell them to mark a waypoint, adjust it to N45 _ _. _ _ x W075 _ _._ _ x, and then project a waypoint to the final. I'm assuming that this will meet the guidelines, because it incorporates GPS Technology.

My closest to home is in the park that is a block away from my house... Disabled...

But, at 12:35, the hour hand is 7/12 of the way between the 12 & the 1...