Waterboy

Brian - An "ultimate trash out", what a great idea. Added note for those going to Harriman this weekend. Of the two caches, there is more trash by the for Snow White and the 7 Lakes #1. That is east of the parking area, around Lake Askoti.

Kerry, you refer to the "underlying Cartesian coordinate system, which GPS is based on." I wish you would explain this more thoroughly. To me you are saying that GPS is based on a planar or flat earth model. Strange, I had always read and heard that since Clarke in the 1860s an ellipsoid model was used. Also that the Clarke, NAD 27, and WGS 84 were ellipsoid models very close to a sphere. I also believe you do not understand the purpose asking you to look at the differences between points N 45º00’ W 075º00’ and N 45º01’ W 075º00’ and compare them to points N 45º00’ W 078º00’ and N 45º01’ W 078º00’. The purpose was: A. True north is usually defined as the direction to the North pole. The shortest way is along a line of constant longitude. At N 45º00’ W 078º00’ the UTM north (sometimes called grid north) differs from longitudinal north by 2.1º. This 2.1 degrees is doubled if you go from zone 18 to zone 17. B. These jumps or inaccuracies in both length and direction may cause problems in precision surveying or navigation.

Congratulation from a pair of Pennsylvania cachers. We never met, but we have been to some of the same caches. (Isn't that what Floopy said?)

If anyone is planning to hunt for Snow White and the 7 Lakes #1 and/or SKANNATAL LAKE please bring garbage bags with you. We found these caches on 10/23/02 and the area unfortunately contains plenty of trash. Everyone will appreciate it if you CACHE IN, TRASH OUT. There is a large dumpster in the parking lot between these two caches.

Quote from Brokenwing That's not entirely correct. Coordinate systems in and of themselves have no accuracy. That's not entirely correct. Calculations accuracy will vary depending on which system you are using. For geocaching, as it is today, this means nothing. For surveying or navigation that is another story. For example: 1. Convert to UTM and find the distance and direction between points N 45º00’ W 075º00’ and N 45º01’ W 075º00’. 2. Now convert to UTM and find the distance and direction between points N 45º00’ W 078º00’ and N 45º01’ W 078º00’. 3. Notice the difference in the two results. 4. The answer for step one will have the same numbers if you change latitude to W 081º, W087º, or add (or subtract) any multiple of six degrees. 5. The answer for step two will have the same numbers if you change latitude to W 084º, W090º, or add (or subtract) any multiple of six degrees. 6. This would not occur if you used one of the more complicated, and more accurate Lat/Long calculations. 7. UTM is a flat (or at best cylindrical) system. IT LACKS THE ACCURACY. It has bumps every six degrees of longitude. 8. If you like you may repeat these calculation at another latitudes. It will be interesting.

Congratulations to both

Congratulation from Pennsylvania. It is great to go caching, husband and wife.

Congratulations smoochnme

Congratulations to all the Leprechauns. Read your log for the Thousand Steps, we had to put it on high our list of caches to do.

Congratulations Ttepee and the Tribe

That is amazing. Congratulations. Also forward our congratulations to Mom and Pop Floopy.

I am not sure I understand your problem. Would you please answer the following questions: 1. I believe that you mean "1 minute of arc" when you say "1 inch of coordinate". Is this correct? 2. Are you looking at a 1:24000 USGS topo map? 3. Do you know trigonometry? The distance between 42°07’30" and 42°10’00" is 2’30" (where 2’30" is read as 2 minutes 30 seconds.) When 2’30" is converted to feet it should equal 2.5 times 6,076 or 15,190 ft. This 15,190 ft on a 1:24000 scale should be 0.633 ft or about 7.6 inches. I hope this is of some help. I should add that a nautical mile equals 1 minute of arc only in latitude. In longitude a minute of arc is equal to a nautical mile times the cosine of the latitude.

That is strange. I own three sets of the NYNJTC maps for Harriman Park. One sets are dated 1971, 1989 and 2001. The 2001 version has LAT/LONG on it. The 1989 has some LAT/LONG info but it is installed in a very difficult way to use. The 1971 version has none. You may want to update to the 2001 version. Added notes 1. The 1989 version does have enough info for easy registration with a GIS type program. 2. For anyone hiking in the NYNJTC area. The maps sold by the NYNJTC are superior to any other products I have seen for Harriman Park. Lost Outdoors and Topozone show extremely old infomation. My 1971 NYNJTC is more modern than the ones they show.

1236 for 19446, Lansdale, Pennsylvania. That is about 20 miles NW of Philadelphia.

Congratulations. See you had a busy day in Harriman Park today. You did quite a thorough job. IT IS AMAZING.

For dave and jamie, Thank you for explaining the use of the watch and sun method. Nicely done. For Jaunbob, 1. As a person who has been hiking regularly, and using a compass, for over 40 years, the times there are problems are very rare. All but seven of those years I lived in either the New York City or Philadelphia area. 2. I am trying to remember if I ever saw a problem outside the three state NY, NJ, PA area. I do not believe I ever did. I am sure that it occurs in other iron rich area, but I have not seen it. 3. Where the compass is not working correctly, I have always found no problem 200 yards away. That is 200 yards in any direction. The problem is knowing when you have a problem, on this the GPS may help. 4. I have heard of other problem with magnetic compasses in Northern Canada. However, I can not give you any first hand experience with these.

900. Nine Hundred. 900. Incredible for one human. Congratulations. Hope we to have the chance to meet again, we would like to congratulate you personally. PS - Please say hello to your parents for us.

To add a little information to the original controversy: 1. The writing of "911" was not done with spray paint. It was hand-painted on in 3 or 4 inch high letters. The rock is situated less than five feet from a clearly marked trail, and very visible from the trail. It appears to be recently made. 2. I saw no other graffiti in the area. I did see surveyors paint marks nearby, and there were also the painted trail blazes. 3. I personally believe it was done by the geocacher as a non thinking act, although I am not sure. I hope that they will respond to this thread and clarify it. 4. This cache and the graffiti may be in the watershed that supplies water to Harrisburg, PA. If someone knows more about this I would appreciate it. 5. It is still something that is not environmentally sound and geocaching should not be associated with it.

Geocaching has long used the slogan "Cache in, Trash out." Today I saw a new form of trash created by a fellow geocacher on public (State Game) Land in Pennsylvania. The trash was in the form of graffiti in bright orange paint. While the cache had a excellent theme, honoring those who died on September 11. I am upset by the illegal trashing of the environment with a paint sign saying "911". I saw the sign, read the decoded hint which refers to this sign, and decided to look no further. It is important to note that this graffiti was written by a premier geocacher. One who new comers to our sport should and will copy. Could graffiti lead to bad publicity for geocaching? I would like other cachers opinion on this subject. The cache in question is Lest We Forget.

As a fellow Pennsylvanian, and former Boy Scout, I must give you one word of advice while using a compass in our area. When you are near large iron deposits, such as abandoned mines, any magnetic compass may become useless. I have seen this at several locations in Pennsylvania, as well as in north Jersey and nearby New York. Please learn other methods of finding north, such as the clock and sun method. When I was an eleven year old Tenderfoot Boy Scout in 1953 an assistant scoutmaster demonstrated the importance of knowing the clock and sun method near an abandoned mine in Harriman Park, New York.

For us the walking time would only be significant if it was a cache that was not to good. One of the most important qualities of a good cache, is that it is in a location that is worth visiting and spending some time in. On one particularly good cache, Cary Mountain, by Rich in NEPA we wrote the follow: WARNING – Give yourself plenty of time when you hunt this cache. You’ll love the place and stay longer than expected.

For us the walking time would only be significant if it was a cache that was not to good. One of the most important qualities of a good cache, is that it is in a location that is worth visiting and spending some time in. On one particularly good cache, Cary Mountain, by Rich in NEPA we wrote the follow: WARNING – Give yourself plenty of time when you hunt this cache. You’ll love the place and stay longer than expected.

Congratulations. We are just trying to figure how to count up to 600. Can someone loan me some extra fingers.

Congratulations Zhanna and Aaron. It is particularly nice to congratulate people that we have met twice. Hope we meet again. Happy hunting for all the remaining caches in NEPA, North Jersey and nearby NY.

For Latitude, one minute of angle is one nautical mile. For Longitude, one minute of angle is one nautical mile only at the equator. At other locations it varies as the cosine of the Latitude. In other words at 45° Latitude (either north or south) one minute of angle in longitude is equal to 0.7071 nautical mile. A nautical mile is equal to 6,076 ft or 1,852 m.