RPW

Cache Commando's other recently placed cache is also strange. It was placed in honor of his 4th year of caching. In part it reads, "This is a discarded coke can that I turned into a cache. ... I forgot a pen for the cache." While I can see a coke can making for an interesting and unusual cache, CC usually takes more care with his caches. I wonder what is up?

Yeah, that ISQ #400 cache doesn't seem to be one. While I am not overly fond of hunting micros in cemeteries at least the ISQ series shows class and does something that all caches should do ... inform us of something interesting. I hope that Cache Commando's cache proves to be legit. Otherwise it is poor joke, IMHO.

Or at least kill it off and start something new. Everyone will have a different opinion on what is happening to Indiana Geocaching. Here is mine: InGeo has been around for some time now but has always been a very weak organization. Oh, there have been the Spring and Fall picnics but, in practice these have either been run by individuals in the north ("spring") or by a dedicated "picnic planning team" in the south ("fall".) There really have not been any InGeo meetings since IndyDiver formed InGeo way back when. Of course there is the web site but even that is now deader than a doornail. Few people post, news is out-of-date, and evidently people can not even get accounts. I should point out that I am not trying to blame anyone for the lack of a strong InGeo but rather I am just stating what is evident -- InGeo is not an vibrant organization. All that exists is the web page and, frankly, that is no good at all. We could disband InGeo without a tear shed. Meanwhile, during InGeo's malaise, a couple of local more "social" groups have sprung up, notably InKy near Louisville and NEIgeo near Ft. Wayne. Additionally there has been pressure from other regions (Bloomington, Lafayette and elsewhere) to have more active geocaching organization(s). If you think about it, a smaller organization is more handy for social gatherings since it is much easier to attract people to and find volunteers for a local weekday event than it is to host a bigger weekend event. It is also easier to associate with and get club officers from people in your nearby area. If you look at InKy's web site (www.members.tripod.com/inkygeo) you can see what a vibrant organization looks like. However at the same time having a state-wide organization can be helpful in order to present a united front to the government, to host state-wide picnics, and so forth. After this year's Fall picnic the people in the south (Daggy, IndyDiver, and Prairepartners, among others) decided that it would be a good idea to form a bunch of local social groups and put them together under the "IndiGo" umbrella. The north/south mid point of Indiana (both in population and in geography) is slightly north of Indianapolis, thus it was decided the the Indy area would be part of IndiGo. Since Team SouthFace, a northener, (note, Southface has not cached since April '05 -- I am not sure how active they are any more) created the InGeo web site the southern people (who have been more or less running InGeo) offered the InGeo name to northern part of the state. Freed from the constraint of working under InGeo we in the northwest-central part of the state (Lebanon, Kokomo, Lafayette, Monticello, Logansport) decided that the idea of local social organization was a good one and so we formed CINCO (www.cincogeo.com) however we declined the offer of taking over InGeo especially since we could not speak for the rest of the northern part of Indiana. Since the CINCO formation Chris from Team Shydog has gone to the Pokagan event in order to talk with people there about what to do about forming a northern umbrella organization. I haven't heard back from him but I expect that he will post on this topic when he gets a chance. So ... what does this mean for InGeo? As I said at the start of my message InGeo may just get a stake through its heart. Or the north may decide to revive it. Unfortunately, in my mind, the InGeo name has a bad stigma attached to it as a "do nothing" organization. Of course that stigma can be erased by a enthusastic rebirth of the organization. We shall see what happens. In any case it is an exciting time for Indiana geocaching organizations. I expect a lot of local social organizations to pop up and host a variety of meetings. IndiGo may prove to be a strong force in the south. The northern groups may band together to form an organization (InGeo or other) or may keep our current loose "no organization" form. I notice that I used a lot of "southern" and "northern" groupings in the above paragraphs. This could be misinterpreted as "us versus them" type of description. That is not my intent. Ultimately we are all geocachers -- a strange breed indeed. And ultimately we are all MidWesterners (I wish to include the geocachers from the states surrounding Indiana) -- also a strange breed of people who refuse to give up the heartland for the sunny western shores or the golden Rocky mountains. As the IndiGo, CINCO, and other charters state anyone is welcome to any meeting. We are not trying to draw boundries nor force people into one group. We all play together. However as might be expected with with change afoot and new lines of communications being formed perceived conflicts can inadvertently occur. The inaugural CINCO event is being held Sat. Nov. 12th. Today we found out that the inaugural IndiGo-Indy and IndiGo-Bloomington events are also being held be on that day; the IndiGo people and ourselves never discussed the coincidence in the date. Is this a conflict that should divide organizations? One could consider it that light. Or one could -- like WCNUT & TATER are doing -- consider it a "triple play" challenge. Breakfast in Bloomington at 9, lunch in Lafayette at 12:30 (with, weather permitting, caching afterwards) and then dinner in Indy at 5. Personally I am going to try for the "double play" -- a CINCO lunch in Lafayette and IndiGo-Indy dinner. It should be fun!

For people who missed the announcement in the "regional organizations" thread, one of the new "social" organizations springing from this reorganization of the Indiana geocachers is CINCO -- www.cincogeo.com -- which is serving the region around Kokomo, Lebanon, Lafayette, Monticello, and Logansport. If and when InGeo gets re-vitalized then we will be part of that umbrella group. CINCO is having their first event on Saturday Nov. 12th on the east side of Lafayette. We get together to eat and talk and then, if the weather is nice, do some geocaching. I am sure one of the topics will be InGeo since Team Shydog went to the recent Pokagan event and talked with people from Ft. Wayne and other areas about caching in the northern part of the state. With the formation of IndiGo and the possibility of a re-energized InGeo plus all of the regional "social" groups forming it is indeed an exciting time for Indiana geocaching.

Going along with INKY, NEIgeo and the other local caching groups in Indiana (as compared to the overall Indiana geocaching group which ties everything together), we have formed CINCO to be the local group in the northwest of Indy region; i.e., Kokomo, Lebanon, Lafayette, Monticello, Logansport. We are going to have our first event in early Nov, 2005 with plans for events at least every other month after that. The events will be small meet'n'greets. See www.cincogeo.com for more information.

Also you will often see people log an event cache multiple times in order to represent finding the temporary caches placed there. Some people will do one log per cache, some people one log per cache group (if the event has such a thing) and some people like my fellow cacher SK believes in "only one log per geocaching GC number." It boils down to what the cache page owner either allows or what he/she catches.

My favorite caches are the ones that take a long time to either (a) hike, ( find, © solve [for a puzzle cache] or (d) complete [for a multi-cache]. Another 'cache in a lamppost at Walmart' 1/1 doesn't even get into the top 100. Unfortunately -- unless you have lots of time -- that is probably the type of cache you will have deal with. Also knowing your general path would help us give you suggestions. Are you planning to wander through Indiana? Kentucky? Tennesee? The hurricane-ravaged deep south? Help us out with some details so that we can help you in return.

Hey Captain. Also aim for the Spring InGeo 2006 picnic which (we hope) should be held in our part of Indiana -- the frozen north. Previous Spring picnics were hosted by the South Bend ('03), Ft. Wayne (04), and Lafayette (05) groups (note, all locations are approximate, Chris ('05) is actually out of Monticello). Us northern folk aren't as organized as our southern kin however we can also throw a good party. As far as I know the who will host, where it will be, and when it will be are all up in the air. Somebody needs to step up and volunteer. My vote is for the ISQ team to run the Spring picnic. We can meet in a cemetery, look for micros, and see who logs the most finds in one day. In all seriousness since ISQ is mainly a northern Indiana affair and since the ISQ people are already loosely organized and since they do put a lot of effort into their cache pages then they indeed, IMHO, would make a good InGeo spring picnic team.

1) Chris, in regards to the InGeo Spring 2006 picnic you may want to start up a different forum topic. I suspect that (gasp!) a lot of people do not regularly read this one. Also this topic has so many different threads in it that it can lose focus. Thus you might get more response by an indivudual topic. P.S. Yes, Valerie is going to kill you. :-) 2) In regards to "big events" on the same weekend. Unless they are really close together (about 100 miles) I do not see much of a gain by offsetting them by only one week. Most people are going to have to choose between the two events in any case. In other words there is not much difference between a choice between event "X" and event "Y" that occur on the same weekend versus a choice between "X" and "Y" on offset weekends. While I would love to spend every Friday, Saturday, and Sunday at a geocaching event, my work and spouse says otherwise, and thus I (and probably others) get to choose only one.

Maybe SK will hold a "remedial puzzle cache solving" short course?

That would be a great idea if the approvers paid attention to the SBA logs and if owners were actually responsive. Sometimes the approvers get swamped and those SBAs just slip by. We have one cache around here that hasn't been found for over a year, the owners haven't logged on for over a year, and three SBAs have been put on it. The cache is still listed as active. Anyway, going back to the idea of an automatic archival. Yes, sometimes there are legitimate reasons for keeping a cache disabled for an extended period of time. However I suspect that there are more cases where a 90-day (or some such) limit would be a good idea. Of course the computer coding for such a function may be more hassle than it is worth -- in my opinion it is not a high priority.

Actually some of us do like the really hard puzzles. Indianapolis has a fair number of these. Just don't expect a lot of finders. However, going back to the original question. It does depend on what you mean by a "virtual" course. Virtuals per-se are not allowed: generally you need a physical container at the end of the route. However a multi-cache (a puzzle cache) can have a bunch of virtuals before the final payoff. I have done a couple like this. Two pieces of advice. First, have multiple ways to solve the puzzle. In other words any given co-ordinate can be solved in one of two ways. Second, give a check-sum or some other indication that the solver has solved the puzzle correctly. That advice is especially good if you have a long multi or a complex multi.

Just got this report on one of my multis. Ah well. I am not that hung up about the "legality" of the find and thus -- especially since geocaching with a child in the midst of the woods is hard -- am not going to disqualify the find. However I thought that I would pass along another FI=DFI story.

Use the IMG button. Your picture does need to be on the web somewhere. The GCing.com pictures are, of course, on the web.

I agree with Shydog that it is the extent of information on the ISQs that makes them valuable. To reduce that information would cheapen the caches into just another park'n'find. Even when I do not have the time to do caching it is fun and educational to read the cache description to my driving partner as we pass the caches. I use pocket queries and a PDA for my caching. No problems with the ISQs except for the pictures ... and that is only because I have a low-level PDA.

Thanks for the link. The Nature Conservancy does not mention geocaching anywhere on their web site. From what I can tell it is neither a permitted activity nor a banned activity. I did find a note on the internet that said that in Iowa it is possible to place geocaches on NC land with the permission of the NC. This may be also true in Indiana. Has anyone done this? However it is still unclear to me if Big Walnut is part of the DNR. The link you gave mentions the co-management of Big Walnut by the NC and by the DNR. So it may fall under the DNR rules. Furthermore if the NC land has been "dedicated" to the DNR (as per document IC 14-31) then the land also falls under the DNR rules. Thus it is possible that Big Walnut is not open to geocaching due to the DNR rules no matter if the NC allows or disallows geocaching. Very confusing! At least to me. -------------------- In any case all of the above does not take away the right of the user known as 'CILTI' to request an archive of the cache and the responsibility of the cache owner to show that they have permission, either implicit or explicit, to keep the cache in its current location.

I am going to jump in on the side of following the rules and self-policing ourselves. Fortunately we in Indiana do not have too many "you can not place a geocache here" rules for public or quasi-public areas. The major ones that I know are (1) not in state (DNR) nature preserves, (2) only with permission in state parks and (3) not in CILT areas. If we don't like the rules then we should try to get them changed. Certainly one way to try to get CILT to change its mind on caching would be to withhold money from them and to write a polite letter explaining why you are doing so. The account "CILTI" -- just like the rest of us -- has every right and responsibility to press that "should be archived" button. It is there for a reason: to report major problems with the cache including problems with illegal or unsafe placement. If the cache placer disagrees with the archive request then the cache placer can have GCing.com ignore it. However it is unclear to me who actually manages the land that the Tall Timbers cache is on. According to their web site it does not seem to be a DNR place. Is it a Nature Conservatory location? Is it both? Was it "dedicated" from someone to the DNR? The maze of land stewardship within Indiana can be confusing! From what I read the new DNR rules as of Jan, 2005 concerning "no caches on nature preserves" applies solely to DNR properties. Although other nature preserves may decide to also use the same rules. It would be nice to have a summary of known rules and regulations as well as who manages what.

Best of luck! Let us know when the caches are placed. I may even make a special trip down south just to find them.

The problem is knowing whom to contact before I click the "Yes, this cache is currently active" checkbox. Or even before I create a cache in the first place. Reviewing comes fairly far down in the list of cache placement activities. First I have to decide where to place a cache. This may involve long hikes or bike/car travel. Second is making up the container (especially if the container depends on the location.) Third is creating the cache page. Finally comes the review process and any follow up revisions to the cache. If instead I could ask someone before step #1 about the legality of the cache placement (e.g., "can I place a cache in the state park") or about qualifications of a multi-cache or ... well ... any number of questions then I could save myself a whole lot of trouble from the very beginning. Now personally I am willing to accept that there is currently no good way to allow a person to figure out whom is his/her approver. I hope that some day there will be a method, especially one based on zip code or city. However to say that there is no problem is just ignoring the very real troubles that the rest of us have in knowing from the git-go as to the validity of a cache placement.

If you really want to "bring geocaching back to the park" then why don't you put some caches there. The permit process does work -- I've place two caches in Prophetstown SP via the permits -- but it takes some effort and time. Evidently some of the long time cachers are bummed out by the park and do not wish to expend the time and energy -- that is their perogative. I can not place caches in the park because I live way too far away. But you ... yes you StangGuy ... can put the geocaching back in the park. Please do so so that I have some geocaches to find when I next visit the southern part of the state. Thanks!

Some people will band together under a one-time name such as "Indiana Geo Spring Picnic Organization." This way no one gets credit yet everyone gets credit. Unless you are real numbers hound that seems to be a good solution. If you do use individual cache names then the secondary hiders can write in their profile that they helped sponsor the event. I suspect that the site is not set up for multiple crediting of names for any type of cache. As a programmer it seems to me that such an addition could be fairly simple (another relational table) or extremely difficult. I'd rather see Jeremy put his efforts elsewhere.

Nix the night cache. Sorry, but time pressures -- also known as "real life" (a.k.a. "THE JOB") -- are getting to be too much for me to find the to set up a good cache. So we won't have one. Sorry! Chris is going to use this opportunity to put out some "live" day caches in the area of the park I was going to use for the night caches. I will be out there camping on Friday. The gate people should be able to -- we hope -- direct all of us to the same camping area. See you at the event.

Hey only one more week until the spring picnic. Chris [shydog] wrote to me: Chris didn't mention the night cache on Friday since I am the one in charge of this. Unfortunately I don't have it set up yet but will do so soon. Sunset is right around 8:00. We will meet at 7:30 P.M. at the soon-to-be-designated-on-the-cache-page location. The long range forecast for Saturday May 21st is 75°/56° with a 20% chance of humidity. In order words: perfect. However this being Indiana my forecast is snow flurries on Friday and 100 degree weather on Saturday. I hope to see all you there. It will be a fun time.

Oh yes. Sorry about that. For some reason I got TTI confused with SixDogTeam when I was writing my post. Perhaps because TTI was quoting SixDogTeam. But I am not sure why I did not catch that during my proofreading. SixDog has a bunch of ISQ hides ... Indiana Spirit Quest for those who have not found them -- a wonderfully detailed look at old cemeteries but almost universally micros. Oh well, again, sorry about that.

I am not sure I follow the reasoning above. While it is hard to give credence to a person with zero hides just because a person has only a handful of hides does not make that person less valuable to listen to. After all it is quite easy to rack up a lot of hides simply by going to WalMart, getting for a bunch of used (and free) film canisters, stuffing a strip of paper into them, tossing the canisters out of the car window, writing up a one-line description that includes "bring your own pencil", and then never making a trip back to cache to check up on it. Compare this to someone who buys a ammo can, does a camoflauge paint job on it, goes to the dollar store to purchase a bunch of cache goodies, makes multiple treks to the hiding location in order to find just the right spot, writes a long description on the reason why the cache was placed, and then makes periodic trips back to the cache to check up and restock it. Due to time and cost considerations the latter person simply can not have the number of hides as the former. It does not make them any "less" of a cacher. Ditto for someone who spends the time and energy to make clever micros. It is probably obvious which camp I am in. [Note, just to ward off possible misunderstanding: I am not accusing of TTI of being the former type of cacher. While TTI does hide a lot of easy-on-the-pocketbook micros they also do a very good job of hiding, maintaining, and writing up good descriptions of the micros.] Micros do have their place. As someone mentioned hiding the right size cache for the location is the best idea. A micro in the midst of a 10 acre woods is irritating. An ammo can in the middle of a 0.1 acre urban park is silly. As for the number of people who do TNLNSL, it is my belief that most adults are only into caching for the hunt. Dollar store items won't appeal to most adults -- we spend more on gas than that just to get to cache. Thus most adults do TNLN (with the exception of trading sig items or TBs.) Kids and families, on the other hand, love trading. Regular size caches are for them. I can see why people with kids would like to see more regular caches placed.