jmedlock

I doubt you can read anything into this apart from a 25% off sale: REI had a sale on the Vista HCx ($100 off?) about 4 or 5 months ago, yet they still carry it. Regards

Thanks for the info! Many months ago, I purchased a copy of "Topo USA 7.0 West" and have been using it with a Garmin GPS. Personally, I like the DeLorme software so much better than Garmin's MapSource, and especially National Geographic Topo. It's definitely in my plans to get a PN-40, once it is released, to see if it will work for our team. If so, I'll contact the pro-sales people if we make a purchasing decision to go with the PN-40s, and will let you know about sending the white paper over to me (if it's ready at that time). One final question if you have enough data to answer: I think the PN-40 has a patch antenna, compared to the quad-helix in the Garmin 60CSx, or the "patch hybrid" (or whatever you want to call it) in the Garmin Oregon 400t. I'm in forested / mountainous terrain, and I have to say that Garmin Oregon 400t regularly had difficulties in putting down a nice and consistent tracklog, when compared with the 60CSx. I don't know if this was due to the "patch hybrid" antenna it uses, or software bugs, or the inability of Garmin designers to take full advantage of the STM Cartesio chipset. In other words, it is my opinion that the 60CSx easily outperforms the Oregon 400t in terms of accuracy, which is what I'm most concerned with. Do you have any field data that indicates that the PN-40 will at least be comparable to the 60CSx in terms of accuracy and its ability to maintain satellite locks? Will the antenna on the PN-40 be the limiting factor? (I'll assume that DeLorme has, or soon will, take full advantage of the STM chipset.) Is it best to carry the PN-40 in a horizontal orientation? We usually strap GPS's to backpacks in a vertical orientation. Finally: I realize we are talking about consumer-grade GPS devices, and not professional units. My expectations for accuracy may be too high, and I realize that, but a device that compares favorably with the 60CSx (with the ability to create custom trails) is all I want. Regards, J

The PN-40 can hold 10 track logs with 10,000 points in each log. Logs can be recorded by time or by distance interval. You can view one saved track at a time on the PN-40 or download them to Topo USA to analyze them with the Draw and Profile tools available with that product. I'd amplify that statement slightly to note that the Draw tools easily allow one to add as many tracks as one likes to trail or road layers (for autorouting), or to a separate draw layer (e.g., as a colored line). Any of these can then be downloaded to GPS as a part of the detail map file. Thanks Chip & Embra, I am part of a search & rescue team, and we are looking to replace our fleet of ancient GPS's, and I would like to carefully consider the PN-40 and Topo USA 7.0 software. I was thinking about using "tracks" to map all the trails since, obviously, mapping software from DeLorme or Garmin doesn't always have the latest and greatest view of trails (e.g. floods wash out / re-route trails, etc...). Also, most times, searches occur in the dead of night where trails are very easily lost. Unless a search team has an intimate memory of a particular area, a search team can get very easily lost. Although I would be very impressed if DeLorme further enhanced the track capabilities of the PN-40 in future software updates (consider taking a look at the Oregon 400t?), maybe "tracks" is not the best solution for my problem? I've seen mention of the XMap software -- would that allow us to create our own set of trails and upload them to the PN-40? Or am I completely off base, and using using tracks is a more workable solution? Regards, J

Amen....

Hey Chip (from DeLorme), Would you please describe how tracklogs are managed on the PN-40? For example, on the 60CSx you are limited to 20 tracks of 500 points each, whereas the Oregon 400t allows an unknown upper limit of tracklogs of 10,000 points each (where individual tracklogs can be selected and shown on the map via the "Track Manager" on the GPS; no need to use a computer). I would hope the PN-40 is similar to the Oregon 400t in the way tracks are managed on the GPS, including the enhancements that the 400t provides over the 60CSx? Regards, J

I see the same behavior with WAAS with this software release: it takes a mighty long time (ages after the 60CSx shows it), but I can usually get it in certain areas. I browsed through the update binary, and found a few library names (two with STM copyrights). They updated their WAAS library, so I wonder why it doesn't work any better than it did. I had a variation of the non-responsive UI with the new software, but it didn't require a software re-install to correct itself (just power off and wait 5 minutes). Perhaps my unit is faulty since I am seeing it happen more often, and no one else is seeing the problem. Disconcerting... Garmin Tech Support only said that they sent my youtube video on to design. I did a hike with the new software tonight and I'm still not impressed with the accuracy compared with the 60CSx. I think I will return the 400t and wait for the DeLorme PN-40 to come out (apparently DeLorme is insistent on beta testing it -- huh?! ). Even though they both use the same chipset (IIRC), I'm curious to see how the PN-40 accuracy compares to the 60CSx. If it is as good or better than the 60CSx, then I'll stick with the PN-40, else I'll take another look at the Oregon 400t (or whatever the next flavor of the month happens to be from Garmin). Good luck to all the Oregon beta testers! I'd keep doing it if they would pay me. J

Update... I hit the problems above on Friday night, but (somehow) I fixed it, and the 400t worked fine on long hikes on Saturday and Sunday. But tonight (Sunday night), I was somehow able to re-create the non-responsive UI problem I saw on Friday, and I'm not sure how I did it. Here is a crappy video showing the crappy problem -- notice the satellite and battery indicators are good: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij31Jw3m7Sg As on Friday night, the problem tonight was consistently reproducible once it started to happen. On power-up, the unit responsiveness would be excellent, but after a few minutes it would degrade as shown in the video. I don't think this is a battery related problem since I tried three different sets of batteries (two sets of 2700mAh, one set of 2100mAh) and consistently hit the problem shown in the video. I didn't have any waypoints or GPX files loaded on the unit when the problem first appeared. I did have some tracklogs/waypoints on the unit earlier in the afternoon (created by the 400t on the hike), but I had deleted them. One thing I noticed is that the unit was flaky this evening getting into mass storage mode; sometimes it would take a very long time, and sometimes it would never make it -- it would stay on the "Loading waypoints, tracks, and routes" screen for more than 10 minutes [i'd pull the batteries] -- I didn't have any waypoints, tracks, or routes on the unit for it to load. Crazy theory: maybe prematurely unplugging the unit when it is trying to get into mass storage mode is not such a great idea; maybe it corrupts some of the system software, or the file-system (tho it seemed okay when mass storage mode did work), or something else scary may happen. I did both the "master reset" and the "Settings / Reset to Default" and still saw the problem. I finally re-installed the software using webupdater and things seem better, so perhaps that is the best workaround to get the unit working again (not great for a solution in the field, tho). It doesn't look like anyone else that follows this thread has seen this particular problem. Maybe it only affects my unit, otherwise maybe all we need is more time before others start to see it. I'm going to send the video to Garmin Tech Support. Some good news: I was out in a nice rain on Saturday, and the 400t got soaked and kept on ticking. The wet screen was usable, except if I was on the Map screen and tried to wipe it so I could read it, the unit would think I was panning (of course). Regards, J

I don't know if the Nuvi has a calibration mode, but on the Oregon, you simply power on the unit by holding the power-on button for 30+ seconds -- it will eventually enter into calibration mode and walk you through a series of screen presses. Last night was the first time I used the screen calibration tool -- and then 5 more times today. You probably know already, but the Oregon just has an "ABC" layout (not QWERTY). I had problems accessing a few of the letters after last night. I'm scared to try calibrating it again in case things get screwed up again. But if someone wants to try, to see if they hit the same problem, then that would be great. Regards, J

I haven't seen any of the errors you mentioned above. I'm not into GC, so I've not had more than 20-40 waypoints, and only a few .gpx files (most less than 30k each) loaded on the unit; I was eventually going to put a lot more on, but haven't gotten to that point. I only have the preloaded 400t topo maps, and have never even had a micro-SD card inserted. Today's experience: After I inserted the lithium batteries last night, I was only able to reproduce the non-responsive UI problem once thereafter. Prior to that, I was able to reproduce the problem a number of times using PowerEx 2700's (which I normally use), and even a set of PowerEx Imedion 2100's. Strange... perhaps a battery related problem, I thought. This morning, I kept the lithium batteries in the 400t and went out to the forest for several hours. The unit worked fine with lithium batteries. However, this afternoon, I was running off USB power ("garmin spanner" mode), and I was able to hit a variation of the non-responsive UI problem that I hit last night. I was going to try to get some video of it when it unexpectedly cleared itself up (maybe the problem is triggered during difficult satellite acquisition periods; or maybe one of the .gpx files, that I've since deleted, was creating havoc). Up until now, I was thinking I was seeing a battery related problem, but it doesn't look that way now. I hit a new problem today that I might have caused last night: I had great difficulties accessing the "A", "B", "E", "F" characters when spelling a name (for waypoint, POI search, whatever). I would press those letters, and sometimes the unit would sense them, and other times not ("A" was most problematic; also the "MC" key in the calculator which is in a similar position). The "touch screen calibration" I did last night must have messed things up. Since then, I've gone through five calibrations and finally have "A B E F" letters working normally again. A few of the calibration iterations made things much worse for the "A B E F" grouping, and I guess I eventually performed the magical iteration that corrected things back to normal. Overall, pretty frustrating. Now what about that DeLorme PN-40.... J

It looks like my Oregon 400t has developed a strange fault... Earlier this week, I had the problem described above. Today, I've hit a brand new problem which is pretty awful: about 50-60% of the time after powering the unit on, it will work fine for about 5 or 10 minutes, but thereafter the touch screen / button user interfaces will fail to be (as) responsive to user input. For example, if I am on the satellite page and press the "x" to exit, the "x" will change color (i.e. I touched it), but the unit will freeze and it will take a very long time (20+ seconds) to return to the previous screen, and all operations are extremely sluggish from that point forward. The other scenario is that the unit becomes entirely non-responsive and will not react to anything (touch or single power-button presses); the only things that work are to press and hold the power button (it will eventually power off), or pull the batteries. Once the unit is power cycled, it reboots just fine: the user interface is once again responsive and everything works as expected. But, at least tonight, I only have to wait 5 or 10 minutes to (usually about 50-60% of the time) see the new problem manifest itself. Things I've done to try to resolve the new problem: Performed a master reset (press left-hand upper screen while power on) and then left it outside for 40 minutes to rebuild its almanac Switched to a different set of freshly charged PowerEx 2700 batteries. Switched to brand new lithium batteries (and reconfigured the battery type to lithium) Used Webupdater to re-install the software (several times) Performed a "restore defaults to factory settings" on the Setup/Reset screen Recalibrated the touch screen The new problem showed up twice while I was out in the field today, and many more times tonight since I am trying to figure out the necessary conditions to cause it to fail. So far, it seems the only necessary condition is to power the unit on and wait -- the odds are good that the problem will appear. I haven't seen this new problem before today. Not good.... maybe I've been using it too much and it wants a day off; I'll see how it behaves tomorrow. Anyone else seen similar behavior? j

Twice this week I've seen some strange behavior on the Oregon 400t: 1. Earlier this week, the Oregon was showing 2 battery bars, and it started acting a bit wacky: it stopped tracking my location on the Map page, and my GPS coordinates remained fixed (i.e. as if the unit thought I was no longer moving, even though I was moving). I attributed it to weak batteries, so I replaced them with freshly charged PowerEx 2700's and all was well. 2. Today, I had freshly charged PowerEx 2700's and then unit was on for about 30 minutes when the same freaking thing happened! Everything was working on the Oregon (I could go to Map, or Satellite, etc...), but the satellite page showed my coordinates fixed at a location over 3700 feet away (where I had been), and the Map page was not updating or drawing a tracklog as I moved. I powered it off, and then back on, and it correctly found my current location, and all was well after that. Hmmm... very strange. The 60CSx I had with me worked perfectly. I might do a master reset on the Oregon. --------------- Update regarding Oregon accuracy with respect to tracklogs: 1. We all know that the Oregon usually shows a higher EPE compared to other units (like the 60CSx) [not that your supposed to compare EPE's, but I must have a mental disorder since I can't help from comparing them]. 2. We all know that the 60CSx gets a WAAS lock much much much faster than the Oregon; at times I've seen the 60CSx get WAAS, whereas the Oregon, try as it might, could not get a lock on satellites #48 or #51. Some things I've discovered (not scientific): 1. I'll turn on both the 60CSx and Oregon and wait (and wait and wait - because of the Oregon) for them to show WAAS. As I hike, the 60CSx will drop WAAS, yet the Oregon will usually continue to show it depending upon conditions. In fact, it seems that the Oregon is able to "hold" onto WAAS much better than the 60CSx. Now the "extended WAAS lock" behavior on the Oregon could be explained away: maybe the Oregon is as lax about saying it has lost WAAS, as it is in achieving WAAS in the first place. I don't know. But if the Oregon WAAS display is correct, then I can only conclude that it can generally hold WAAS better than the 60CSx. 2. I now have a series of tracks in different mountainous/forested conditions where, for the most part, the 60CSx and the Oregon perform equally well compared to each other. In a few instances, the Oregon or 60CSx may wander a bit off course, but that is usually only momentary. In my experience, the trick to getting a good tracklog on the Oregon is to change the default tracklog setting from "auto" to "time" and "10 seconds" (or less). With that said, I have gotten a few good tracklogs with the Oregon in "auto", but I seem to get consistently good tracklogs if I configure a specific time period <= 10 seconds. To put it another way: I don't trust the "auto" tracklog mode on the Oregon. I'm going to play with the Oregon & 60CSx more this weekend, but at this point, I think I will keep the Oregon. J

Has anyone found an upper limit on the maximum number of tracks that you can add to the unit? Garmin says 20 (same limit on other units), but I've added more than 40 without an apparent problem. I haven't tried adding more than 50 routes, but I guess I will try just to see. Regards

Ah, I just checked the Oregon Wiki and didn't see it listed as a known problem. Thanks!

Hey, Can anyone else reproduce a crash on their Oregon by following these steps: Go to "Where To?" Go to "Geographic Points" (or "All POI" or I think any area that lets you spell out a name) Click the "A B C" to spell a name Spell a place that will take some time to complete the search for all instances (e.g. "Dallas") While the unit is still searching for all instances, click on one of the already listed locations On the map screen, select the top location bar to get to the coordinates, etc; does your unit crash where you have to pull the batteries to recover? I get a crash at Step #6 if the Oregon was still busily searching for a list of locations that matched my query string. If I wait until the Oregon has stopped searching, then I don't seem to get a crash. Regards J

I've emailed them problems on the Oregon, and it takes about 3 days before I hear back from them. I always hear back. Regards

I'm not convinced that waypoint averaging is needed on the Oregon. See the picture below where I stopped to talk with friends for about 15 minutes. The 60CSx wandered, whereas the Oregon track stayed put. The Oregon s/w must somehow realize (better than 60CSx) that it is stationary and discard redundant trackpoints. I would think the same logic would apply to waypoints and waypoint averaging (but maybe I'm smoking crack and am wrong). In case there is any confusion: I'm not suggesting that the accuracy of the Oregon is better than the 60CSx. I'm still not convinced one way or the other (even thought the tracklog above is one example showing the 60CSx outperforming the Oregon). Nah, the latest Colorado s/w doesn't have this. Maybe the next version will? Be careful since there is a bug and the "Current.gpx" may get corrupt data in the "<desc>" field of the waypoint you projected. You can delete the projected waypoint to correct it, else edit the "Current.gpx" file and remove the garbage characters. Regards

Hi, I have some impressions regarding tracklog accuracy between the 60CSx and the Oregon 400t at the site below: http://gps.wmsar.info/ I plan to run more tests this week to help me decide if I can live with the Oregon 400t, or if it is going back! The two things holding me back from returning it immediately is the DEM maps and the touchscreen. Either way, I'll update the site above with whatever else I learn. P.S. I also encountered a number of crashes when connecting the unit to my computer via USB. It would crash after it archived the current.gpx data. I had freshly charged batteries in the unit (PowerEx 2700) and nothing in the microSD slot. My tracklog wasn't full, so I really don't know why it crashed, but I had to pull/re-insert the batteries to recover. P.S.S. I almost came face-to-face with a mountain lion as I was out comparing the Oregon with the 60CSx. I should have listened to my dog since he wanted to leave the area immediately.... Regards, J

Nah, Garmin is wrong - I've emailed with tech support (and provided links to this discussion thread), and so have others. I also emailed them info on some other problems and their latest reply today said, "Thanks for all the great information! We will look into what is causing the issue." (Not sure about the use of the singular word "issue"; ah well...) I recently posted a comparison track between the Oregon & 60CSx where the Oregon was nicer: Previous Post Here is a picture from yesterday showing the 60CSx doing a better job: July 30: Oregon 400t vs 60CSx Given the two comparisons above, I think the Oregon is doing a decent job, huh? Of course there is room for improvement... J

Yep! Thanks.... Please try the following testcase to see if you can reproduce the problem: Create a waypoint. Go to "Waypoint Manager" Select your waypoint. Scroll down to "Project Waypoint" Enter a bearing. Enter distance to bearing. Save the new projected waypoint. Put the Oregon 400t in mass storage mode and try to access the "Current.gpx" file -- it will fail to open due to an error. The "<desc>" area for the projected waypoint has invalid (garbage) characters. The best workaround is to delete all projected waypoints. The other workaround is to open the Current.gpx file and edit it as you suggested (kind of a pain, eh...) J

Hmm.... On the Colorado 400t, I used to open the "Current.gpx" file, but if I try to do the same on the Oregon 400t, I get an error message saying the file is invalid (I'm using DeLorme Topo USA 7.0). I have to save the current track, and then I am able to open the track .gpx file in DeLorme Topo. Is this normal behavior? Also, without using MapSource (it gives an error -- also upgrading to the latest MapSource software fails with some error message I need to google), how do I get the waypoints transferred to my computer in .gpx format? The saved tracks seem to only have track data, and no waypoints. On the Colorado, I think the waypoints were part of the "Current.gpx" file, but I don't really remember. J

The "New Mexico 400t" - these are pretty dumb and won't make sense to very many: 1. It will come in two colors (red or green), and can be eaten in an emergency. 2. After breakfast, it's always time for siesta, so you'll have to wait for a satellite lock "manana" (tomorrow in spanish). 3. No one knows why, but it will contain lots and lots of trinitite so it will glow in the dark. 4. After lunch, it's always time for siesta, so you'll have to wait for a satellite lock "manana" (tomorrow in spanish). 5. Instead of WAAS correctional data, a tinfoil hat will be included to allow your unit to pick up cosmic signals beamed from UFO's that inhabit Roswell. And finally... 6. After dinner, it's always time for siesta, so you'll have to wait for a satellite lock "manana" (tomorrow in spanish).

I use DeLorme Topo USA 7.0 and a simple graphics editor: I import the .GPX files from the GPS(s), and then grab a screen shot, and then edit the screen shot in the graphics editor. Regards

Well, there's no question that the screen readability on the Oregon is awful compared to the 60CSx (unless you work in Garmin marketing, in which case your Oregon will get absolutely stunning results in all conditions). On the Oregon, I keep the backlight on FULL and have it automatically turn off after 15 seconds; yesterday I had the 60CSx on full too, but probably didn't need it that way. Even with the above said, I do like the Oregon and (if I keep it), will have to learn to live with the sometimes difficult to read screen (where "sometimes" will vary depending on outdoor conditions). I like the touchscreen quite a bit compared to the buttons on the 60CSx: it is very fast and easy to get around. In an earlier post, I commented on how I was able to use the Oregon with gloves on (including heavy ski gloves -- had to use the edge of the glove in that case). Also, I am able to use it one-handed (left-hand or right-hand) by using my thumb to navigate. I don't like the finger smudges that show up, since it can make the screen more difficult to read depending upon your viewing angle. But I carry small packets of lens wipes to clean the screen; I also found some "finger cots" (finger condoms?) that I tried, but they leave behind a smudge as well. If the DeLorme PN-40 was coming out now (instead of October??), then I would be taking a serious look at that unit too. Regards

Also, probably outsource (more?) development to China.....

Ya, heavy (coniferous) tree cover, with mountains around. Click here for a 3-D view Regards, J