xer0piggy
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Posts posted by xer0piggy
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Sorry all, didn't realize it was a special promocode!
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$9.49 - instant $5.00 (promocode EMC420DMEM1) +$4.99 (3-day shipping) = $9.48 total!
Yeah shipping is more expensive than the memory... Newegg is a great place to get computer stuff though.
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The only issue I have had with my Garmin 60Cx and street autorouting is that there is no way to increase the distance from where the unit beeps. If you are going at a good rate in your car, the beep to turn can be a bit on the too late point if you are not eyeballing the map a lot.
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Money. The MicroSD packages are much more expensive. Convenience always comes at a price.
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I am a GPS newbie. I would like to buy a hand held outdoor GPS unit (hiking/geochaching type). I have been trying to get independent advice but its difficult to sift through all the rubbish thats out there on the net (especially without broadband). Does anyone know of a trustworthy, independent and neutral source for reviews and comparisons for GPS units?
While I am here, what are people's opinions of the Magellan 210? (thats the kind of level i was looking at)
Does anybody know if in the U.S. it is possible to buy the Magellan 210 with the European base map on it instead, of the US base map? (for various reasons I am not buying over the net)
Thanks for any input. I do appreciate it.
I am a noob with GPS units also. I did though manage to do a lot of research before settling on a Garmin 60Cx. One of the basic tenants of getting into an unknown area for a customer is how well the device is supported by both the manufacturer and purchasing commmunity. Garmin has the general concensus of having the best customer service. Garmin also has the largest share of the handgeld GPS device market. This means it is well supported both directly by the company and indirecty by others who have purchased the units in forums such as this.
I am by no means a fanboy. I haven't had time to become one :-)! In fact, if you read my review of the unit I purchased, there are a lot of user interface issues I have. However, these type of issues appear endemic throughout the handheld GPS industry and not specific to Garmin. So basically, all different-brand user interface "problems" being roughly equal, Garmin still has better customer service and with the 60x and 76x series, better hardware too. This is how I decided on my particulars, however your critereia might be different.
You would be better versed by setting forth a set of parameters by which: A. your "expectations" of how you will use it B. How much you can afford. C. Any physical limitations on its usage (eyesight, etc). For example, if you wish to use primarily on the streets and have it route directions for you to destinations, a particular brand/model might not be the best for your expectations. Then others more well-versed on the subject can help you decide better.
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I agree with RR, I mean after all, when a product as used as it should (suction cup + windsheild = normal use) , and fails I would rush out in a relentless search of a replacement also. I hope the Garmin rep told you to use velcro on the new one to avoid this problem in the first place!
Um...what?
I believe Ryan was being sarcastic about RR's vocal case of sour grapes.
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I don't know a lot about GPS's yet, but I do know about memory. The read/write speeds to MicroSD, or any of the other external "flash" memory formats are generally limited by the electronics in the handheld device, whether they be camera, GPS's, MP3 players, etc. Higher end digital cameras are the only handheld electronic devicesthat really take advantage of any speed differences. This is because the high-end cameras can take several photos per "second" which means a lot of data must be written quickly. Even then they usually have a memory buffer to store temporary data which is much faster than the flash memory. No other hendheld devices generally need to write data so quickly.
That being said, faster flash memory "will" show a difference in reading and writing when coupled directly to a PC using USB2-type high speed read/writers. The difference being that the 400 megabytes of map data you need on the flash MicroSD will take a much shorter amount of time to write in the USB read/writer than it will if you hook your GPS (with MicroSD in it) to the PC.
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Xer0piggy -- have you done any research on sources for POIs and how they work with the 60CS? I downloaded a few (Duncan Donuts listing) for the GPS, but really I am more interested to what people have found for POIs to place in their 60CS.
Sorry Ellteejak, I haven't got that far yet :-)!
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First thing I did was open the battery cover with a 180 degree twist of a little d-ring, remove a nicely gasketted battery cover, and pop in two AA batteries (which Garmin was too cheap to include) and look for the on button. After 5 minutes of pushing random faceplate buttons and combinations thereof, I gave up and referred to the manual (Even worse is that RTFM is an old IT mantra I used to say to others! :-). It was not on the bottom faceplate with the rest of the buttons, but was a little black rubber bump on the top black rubber coat of the unit, that looked like (what I thought) was the rubber cover to some antennae attachment area as is commonly seen on cell phones. Good/bad?? no idea, just surprised me as to where it was as it was well camouflaged. Doesn't seem to make much of a difference, but was frustrating to a technical person that was too stupid to find it :-)!
The button is clearly embossed with the international on/off symbol. Not sure how you missed that. The reason for its size and placement is simple - it prevents the accidental activation/deactivation of the unit that is common when the on/off button is on the face of the unit. It's placement makes it very easy to access with thumb, but being next to the antenna "fin" make it almost impossible to accidentally depress it.
I missed it the same way I miss any "tiny" little "black-colored" emblem placed on a "black-colored" background. Just because not all of us are good at Where's Waldo, and means we immediately see that which is well-camoflaged (especially with older eyes). Like I said though, the on/off button and its placement are not a good or bad thing, just something I didn't obviously see at first.
Exactly the response I expected. I don't remember having any problem turning on my 60CSx when I first got it. Perhaps the shortcoming is not in the unit, but elsewhere....
I'm not exactly sure what kind of response you are hoping for. If it is a sarcastic response to my own limitations on eyesight, You're too late, I already called myself stupid for not finding it quickly.. In fact, I stated "my stupidity" about it in my very first post...
Doesn't seem to make much of a difference, but was frustrating to a technical person that was too stupid to find it :-)!
Exactly the response I expected.
Then why keep bringing it up? If I say I was stupid about the "on" button a few more times, will that change something or give you satisfaction? There have also been times I have lost my car keys when they were right in front of me. I was stupid then too; about finding them. I don't understand what you want as a satisfactory response as the wisdom escapes me.
Perhaps the shortcoming is not in the unit, but elsewhere....
Is this meant to be a veiled implication of my negative shortcomings? If so, then maybe you should be a bit more forthright about it as I am happy to agree with many of my shortcomings. "Or" perhaps, that since most of my issues have "not" been about the unit, but rather Garmin's poor software, then perhaps you are just restating and summing my posts for me?
If none of your three sentence response was meant to be inferred as being negative to myself, then I most humbly and publicly pre-apologize for misconstruing your intent. I could be being defensively "stupid", but sometimes it's hard to judge someone's intent over the Internet.
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It seems to lag a bit with acceleration and deceleration.
The speed reading is only update once every second.
On my older GPS it had a speed filter menu. I believe this is what everyone sees when you come to a stop. It takes about 2-5seconds or so for the gps to come to 0. What it is is a filtering method to keep your gps from jumping around with every signal anomoly and to keep your track consistant when you pass through a tunnel and loose signal momentarily.
I know on racing type forums, unless you can photo a GPS unit on your dash, you're considered FOS when bragging about how fast you have gone :-). Dash speedo's don't count past 60 mph.
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Radio Shack, while it has things you can't find elsewhere, is not the low-price leader.
I remember when the sales guys at Radio Shack used to know something about electronics. Nowadays, if it isn't related to cell-phone rate plans, you're SOL. Those guys are even bigger idiots than Best Buy blue shirts. You can still buy electronics, but woe is you if you don't know exactly it is you need and can show them in their own catalog where to get it....
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So kinda Day3:
I've had the unit for 6 days actually, but haven't had any time to mess with it, other than watch it plot out my position as I drove around. BTW: My kids (4 and 5) love it when I program in (using the detestable data entry method!) my destination so they can hold onto it, watch the map, and shout directions (even though I already know how to get there). I guess I can thank Garmin for keeping my kids occupied while I drive!Anyways... during this week I got a free copy of Microsoft's Streets and Trips V7. Just because I'm a computer nerd, I had to get my GPS working with it..
And so my new trials and tribulations:
Apparently MS Streets and Trips only works with MNEA data outputted to a serial com port if it is not a particular GPS product. I figured out how to output MNEA from the 60Cx unit easily enough, but WTF serial input?? Maybe the other person was right, I would have to use the stupid big ol' AMP-4 bayonete type serial port :-(!
No way in hell am I giving up this easily! I've created virtual com ports and and done port redirects since Apple II days. There has to be a way to redirect a USB to a virtual serial port without additional hardware (so I thought). Well there are many program to create virtual serial ports, but none that will redirect to/from USB without additional hardware. And of the ones that do, they cost a lot of cashola that I didn't want to spend. Other methods involved more programming than I want to do for this thing! So maybe Garmin has one. I peruse over to the Garmin website, and type in their search function: virtual serial ports, USB redirect, Streets and Trips, etc. Nothing!. A perusal of the software/utilities/drivers that Garmin lists as available/compatible to the 60Cx comes up with a big zero. Damnit, I'm stumped now. Better check the forums.
Low and Behold, there is topic concerning MS Streets and Trips right there (although for a different brand unit). In it a poster (thx cacheoholic!) mention's using Garmin's "spaner" to connect his 60CSx to the PC with the USB cable to make it work. So I go back to Garmin's website and type in a search for "spaner" using their search function. No luck! Maybe he typo'd it cause "spaner" looks odd. I try "spanner" with 2 n's and still NOTHING!. OK, it's Google time. God bless those IPO millionaires! Their software actually works. Even Garmin's website software is crap. A "google" search of "Garmin Spanner" comes up with a link straight to the Spanner download!!! A Garmin website search of "spanner" came up with NOTHING. THis does not reflect highly of Garmin's programming expertise. Here is the "spanner" program if you haven't got it: http://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=1627
I install it and voila! Presto magnifico, a USB to virtual com port redirect. Of course, Garmin can't simply call it or even describe it as such (even though that's what it is). They have to call it "Spanner" as if that means a dadgum thing! In addition, according to the description for it: Spanner allows you to use your GPS 18 USB...yada, yade. WTF is a GPS 18? I don't know and the manual doesn't say. According to the website, its a GPS receiver only. The software/driver sure wasn't linked to the 60Cx in any form or manner. And yet amazingly, it works (as it should being nothing more than a USB-serial redirect).
So now MS Streets and Trips works great with the 60Cx using the USB hookup just fine. I didn't have to use the stupid serial port!! Hahaha! (So it's still a big ugly useless hole!) No dadgum thanks to Garmin's incompetancy in their website search engine, manual, or even web links for the unit. Now could I have called and gotten an answer? Probably, but WTF do I want to "talk" to someone for; when their website or manual could have just said something.
One last rant on their utility software. I downloaded Garmin's 2.21 USB drivers because mine were listed as 2.1 (the one that came with Metroguide 7). I was sure I has already updated the USB drivers once, but device manager said otherwise. Naturally it comes as an executable in a odd compression format. Well everytime it tried to install on the old USB driver, it would ask where grmn"somethingortheother".sys was. Well there was a c:\garmin\USB_drivers with the file, but it was the old 2.1 driver. This stupid executable, wouldn't overwrite the old USB driver. The only way I could update it was that I know that running these type of executables creates a temp directory in the c:\documents and setting\username\local settings\temp directory with the expanded files. Of course as soon as you close the program, the computer tends to delete the files.. So I ran the executable, and copy/pasted the new USB_drivers onto the old C:\garmin directory and then told windows to search there for the driver when the "new device found" window popped up.
I don't know if the program has an issue with old USB files in place, or was just screwed up. Either way I knew how to get around it, but someone not as well versed as I am with computers will have a helluva time if this USB update program is as big a piece of crap as I believe it to be.
Now I don't know if MS Streets and Trips is any better than Metroguide on the PC, but it does look a helluva lot nicer on initial 2-min random button click testing. But this is an apples to oranges thing since its an older version of Metroguide versus a brand new versio of the MS product.
Again my thanks to cacheoholic, who's posting led me to the solution, in a roundabout fashion!
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I know that some people are satisfied with a complicated process because they believe that orienteering shouldn't be easy. For me though, I am a father of three, the oldest only 5. When we look for a cache, our Honda Civic
is usually still visible from the cache site . I am not the mountain climber, spelunking, SUV-mountain dew-advertisement type - and if I was, I doubt I would be out looking for buried mctoys anyways. This hobby has some great potential to be an awesome way to get families off of the couch and outside being active. If gpsr's are this complicated to use, then it is a problem with how the product is built, not with how the user is built.The first thing Garmin should do is hire 0p on contact to bring some fresh ideas to the whole industry
.JMO
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The only two "growth" markets I see right now (obviously correct me if Im wrong) for the GPS are automobiles GPS's, where there is TONS of competition, and geocaching, which is learned from word-of-mouth or the Internet (which is pretty much the same as word-of-mouth). People who "need" GPSs probably already "have" GPSs, whether they be hunters, boaters, surveyors, etc. People who would "like" GPS without a real need are the auto people, and the people interested in taking up geocaching (as it is pretty difficult without one) as a hobby/sport.
Right now there appears to be NO competition in the geocaching side unlke the automobile-side. Like I mentioned in a previous post, why hasn't one of the big GPS names stuck that big-a** kiosk display in Walmart/Best Buy/Office depot, etc PUSHING this as a family-oriented hobby/sport and CREATING market share from thin air? They do have their displays for their automobile products, but then so does every GPS company that they have to compete their products against.
I don't see any of the actually "competing" for geocachers. For new geocachers, all they need do is modify a few of the low/mid-end models and make it explicitly STUPID-EASY for geocaching with secondary functionality as a road map device? For the experienced geocachers, just tailor existing products with software better suited to the sport. Had I seen a model like this in a store kiosk when I first got interested in trying, guess what I probably would have bought? Impulse and convenience buying sells a LOT of stuff. You won't get impulse purchases if there is no interest and there is no interest without advertising.
In fact, the whole GPS market needs to get behind this kind of "new use" thinking as their market, except for the couple of areas I discussed, seem to be pretty stagnant.
And yes, Garmin should hire me :-)!
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Don't get me wrong, I too love the a-la-carte idea but I'm not sure that turning a GPSr to a cell phone is exactly a fresh idea.
Why not? What would be the matter with a GPS that has; large, dual 262,000 color screens, 3+ day battery life, thick as a pencil, UI that actually works halfway intuitively, expandable memory with actual read/write file management, bluetooth and InfraRed PC connectivity, alphanumeric keyboard with positive tactile feedback, and voice activation/speech capability?
I personally think that anyone who thinks the GPS should "not" be like this is the backwards thinker. The thing is about the GPS industry, is that they are assbackward stupid for not following form facter and human interface designs "that have already been proven". Sure it doesn't have to be exact, but for instance; the 60 and 76 series would be a LOT handier with a flipfold clamshell design where they could have put a lot more buttons on the flip and a larger screen on the other. It doesn't have to be as small as a cell phone (in fact you might not want it to be), but the technology and design is ALREADY DONE!
As long as the hardware performs similarly, who wouldn't take a Large RAZR cell phone format GPS as long as it worked as well, and had the same water-resistance/durability. The only issue, I'd have would be proprietary batteries, but proprietary batteries are much more bearable when they last 3+ days. Hell, go ahead and add the camera and MP3 player while your at it. Both of those features can be handy too.
With cell phones coming out that "do" have the built-in GPS abilities, Garmin and other GPS companies, need to take advantage of their GPS technical prowess, before what is still a gimmick on cell phones, becomes as good as what Garmin keeps putting out. No cell phones won't be as good GPS units as specialized Garmin type for a while, but that won't be that way forever (which means very soon in the fast evolving cell-phone industry). These new GPS Cell phones, besides being GPS capable, will have Internet capability. Free detailed maps (barring connectivity costs of course) from Google, mapquest, etc and others downloaded instantly to a GPS cell phone is going to be HUGE competition, that Garmin will LOSE in the consumer market if they dont get their heads out of their a**. "Or" they will pull out of the handheld consumer market when these multifunction cell phones start taking off. Unfortunately this is more likely.
Now some might consider that these handhelds by Garmin and Magellan, etc are more "ruggedized" and "specialized" than a cell phone will ever be. Ruggedization is easy once the hardware is designed. For a "poor" example, stick a RAZR in a waterproof padded plastic box the size of the 60 or 76 series. The RAZR in the padded box will take a wall throwing better and be just as water resistant. The only thing differentiating "ruggedization with electronic devices is the housing and "maybe" a tiny bit on the electronic layout engineering. Basically, nothing hard to do by anyone.
In terms of specialized, once the GPS hardware is made, "specialization" consists of software to hardware interface. For instance waypoints, geocaches, tracking, MAPS!, etc are ALL SOFTWARE FUNCTIONS! Not hardware! Garmin might be a leader in the GPS market, but the consumer market will soon eat them up and spit them out if they don't get with the program.
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It appears that everyone has missed the most gimmicky thing about the 'x' series of Garmin handhelds. That being that the unit reads only Mapsource data off of the card. It cannot read route, track and waypoint data off of the card for use in the field like the Explorist XL unit can. Garmin needs to step up and correct this.
Funny how someone with only this very post to his credit comes in here saying untrue things.
On my 60 CSx I can load all the custom POI's that I can handle on the card and save the tracks. I can read all of it in the field, too.
If anyone needs to step up, it isn't Garmin.
ETA: Not only is this your very first post, but you have zero finds, zero trackables...zero everything. Yeah...you have a lot of real-world experience.
Your critical sarcasm coupled with "not" being entirely right in response to this poster does little to show how your immense 428 posts are any better than his 1 post. Rather than rebutt the argument, you attack the poster for his few number of postings.
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First thing I did was open the battery cover with a 180 degree twist of a little d-ring, remove a nicely gasketted battery cover, and pop in two AA batteries (which Garmin was too cheap to include) and look for the on button. After 5 minutes of pushing random faceplate buttons and combinations thereof, I gave up and referred to the manual (Even worse is that RTFM is an old IT mantra I used to say to others! :-). It was not on the bottom faceplate with the rest of the buttons, but was a little black rubber bump on the top black rubber coat of the unit, that looked like (what I thought) was the rubber cover to some antennae attachment area as is commonly seen on cell phones. Good/bad?? no idea, just surprised me as to where it was as it was well camouflaged. Doesn't seem to make much of a difference, but was frustrating to a technical person that was too stupid to find it :-)!
The button is clearly embossed with the international on/off symbol. Not sure how you missed that. The reason for its size and placement is simple - it prevents the accidental activation/deactivation of the unit that is common when the on/off button is on the face of the unit. It's placement makes it very easy to access with thumb, but being next to the antenna "fin" make it almost impossible to accidentally depress it.
I missed it the same way I miss any "tiny" little "black-colored" emblem placed on a "black-colored" background. Just because not all of us are good at Where's Waldo, and means we immediately see that which is well-camoflaged (especially with older eyes). Like I said though, the on/off button and its placement are not a good or bad thing, just something I didn't obviously see at first.
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I agree with SandyGarrity about starting out with a paper map. I own a 60Cx, but I am still so darned map-oriented that I find auto-routing and voice directions to be a complete waste. Even in the car, just follow along with the map display on your gpsr. When you come to a cross-road, your map will show you that. Just make your turn, and your map shows you that. Continue on your merry way, and the map shows you that.
It's kinda like using a calculator without knowing your multiplication tables by heart first. Who should need a calculator for 7x6 ?
One rant that zeropiggy left out is the HUGE problem of the 2025 map segment limit. If you use only street map products, this is no biggie since the segments are large. However, with TOPO, you have small segments and lots of them. For TOPO USA West you run into the segment limit at about 375mb.
I, and others, will continue to hound Garmin until they fix this, either in firmware or in a new TOPO product that has larger, and fewer, segments.
For TOPO mapping the new Delorme PN-20, with their superior topographic maps, looms large. I hope Garmin is taking notice.
Could you expand on this? I can't comment on it, because I still haven't brought myself to part with my cash for the program :-)! As I will probably break down sooner or later, it would be nice to know what to expect as an issue.
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I think that the average consumer would know that handheld GPS's were designed primarily for outdoor use. And considering all the research you did, I am quite sure you were aware of that as well. I agree that the manuals are just a painful roll of toilet paper. But I do not agree that the user interface is as horrendous as you make it to be. Road use in a handheld is an added bonus, which i believe that the 60cx handles extremely well.
I have no doubts that average consumers think that the handheld units are for outdoors usage as well as vehicle usage. I know it's hard to follow the thread, cause they tend to wander around a bit, but the main point was that Garmin bills there units as easy to use without any land navigation skills or terminology necessary. Unfortunately, but their method of packaging and advertising, along with poor documentation, is contrary to that point. And I would add that I am NOT the average consumer :-).
The user interface, is not HORRENDOUS, when taken on it's own or when compared to other similar GPS units. It is only poor when compared to "other" similar consumer devices on the market such as cell-phones. So basically, if I had never used any other electronic devices, it would be fine, but the user interphase, compared to something even as old as my Nokia 6160 phone, "then" it is indeed poorly implemented.
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For example, if you look at the box. Most every picture of the unit is showing "road" maps. In fact, the desciption says "From CAR, to canoe, to campsite: wherever your spirit...blah blah" A reasonable assumption by someone new to GPS's who is looking at this box in the store, is that this is a "vehicle" GPS first, with a secondary ability to be used outdoors. This would imply to a new user that the primary functionality of this unit is to provide directional assistance on "roads". Land nav skills are not needed.
I think that you inferred something that WASN'T implied.
And what would you infer from reading the box in a Best Buy store if you did not know much about GPS units? The box descriptors are obvious implications to road usage:
1. Basemaps with auto routing showing city, interstates, motorways, major roads
2. Half the pictures with ROad maps/instructions
3. The descriptive wording I already mentioned
Just because "you" might know better, doesn't mean the average consumer will.
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This is the wrong argument. Lose your map, compass, and watch and you will be just as lost. Yes, dependency on single battery operated devices in hazardous situations is not an ideal situation, but not everyone is trying to traverse the Gobi desert. Wilderness skills should not be a dependency for buying a consumer product.
Sure you can lose your map or compass, but there are many more things that can go wrong with a GPS. A map is also less likely to get lost because it's usually tucked away, not clipped to the outside of a pack or belt and it doesn't have batteries that can go dead or electronics that can break.
A handheld GPS is not just another consumer product like an Ipod. They were originally designed for hunters, hikers and other outsoorsmen. That's why when you turn on a Magellan unit you get a message about agreeing to assume all risks when using the product that you have to agree to for the unit to initialize.
If your PDA or Ipod breaks it's unlikely that your life might depend on it. If your GPS breaks and you have no wilderness navigation skills it could have serious consenquences. You don't have to be traversing the Gobi Desert to find yourself in a life threatening situation while out geocaching or hiking in the woods. Its why many SAR personnel are not big fans of these things. They bring too many unprepared novices to places they shouldn't be, then the SAR are called in to bring them out.
Geocaching to a point has changed things. Units that were designed to get a hunter out of the woods or a fisherman back to the dock are now used to find Tupperware in town parks and on city street corners, but that doesn't change the primary purpose of the units.
If you're buying a Streetpilot for your dashboard, that's one thing. Buying a handheld that is designed for wilderness travel is another.
This may all and well be true, however my argument is that these Garmin GPS units are marketed as general "consumer" products, not outdoor "specialists" tool. If they (Garmin or other companies) are going to market them to the "average" consumer as they are doing, then the user interface and manuals should reflect this (with limitation warnings too, which is also lacking). I agree with everyone that these could get people into trouble, but by not having better included instructions on their use and limitations, it is the company who is doing the disservice, not the consumer who is buying the unit out of misleading advertisement information. And this view is coming from a person who "does" understand land nav. I'm a noob to the "GPS" world, not land nav. I bought the GPS for road and local geocaching. I myself never had issues with manual terminology, just slight user interface frustrations in accessing the functions do the poor manual.
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What you are asking for is rather like asking the company to sell you two songs off two different discs of a three volume set. Since they can't do that any less expensively than they can produce the whole set, they're going to sell you the whole thing for the price of the two songs--Doesn't it make sense to buy the whole thing?
I would disagree with you here. Apple and the Ipod has proven this wrong. As all the data is in electronic format, there is NO need for "producing" anything beyond the data. They do not need to make DVD's with an electronic Internet point-of-sale. Their mapsource software already shows that smaller area maps can be selectively taken out of the greater whole. The files once generated can be sent by any medium. A simple point-of-sale to these selective files could be assessed to the consumer and tied to any DRM they currently employ.
They do sell maps via SD Cards that may do exactly what you are thinking. I am unsure though if these maps work on the 60 series.
They do work in the 60's but they are even more expensive than buying the DVD's and your own SD cards.. :-(
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Maybe it's just good luck, karma, or whatever, but I didn't have near as many problems with the 60csx as the OP did. I did move up to the 60csx from a Legend, but they are VERY different in their operation.
I can't get over how cool the 60csx is. Mine shows me the cache name, the GC #, the terrain & difficulty, whether or not the last 4 people found it or not, etc. It also has icons showing my what type of cache I am looking for (puzzle, multi, virtual, etc).
Of course it did take some time to get it personalized the way I wanted it. Plus I use GSAK to put that info on there. But that's just part of owning a device like that. I didn't expect my ipod, Palm, or many other devices I own to be ready out of the box and be exactly how I wanted them. Heck, I even did some personalization to my vehicle before it was setup just like I wanted.
Compared to the Legend, I found the 60csx to be very intuitive. In fact a few new people I have taken caching with me have figured out all on their own how to get it to show the next cache without much input from me.
I don't usually read the manual until I get to something I don't know how to do. And if I get get that info from the manual, I jump on various forums and usually find the help I need there.
Maybe the 60csx isn't for everybody, but I don't think that the OP's experience is necessarily indicative of everyone else's experience.
As I am the original poster I think you are getting my original posts wrong. I think the unit hardware is GREAT!. The fact that the only fault with the actual "hardware" has been a blurb about the serial port being an unneccesary addon, which is debateble. My posts have been more about the user interface, manual, and map package additional costs requirements. The only "functional" issue I have had (in which the geocache list was not being populated) should have been an easy fix, but for the manual.
No.
I am not saying that, the 60Cx is not designed for that use. It is designed for "Outdoors use", their word not mine, if you are buying a unit like this then it would not be an unreasonable assuption to make that you are planning to use it in a "Outdoors" setting where navigation is needed. What I am saying, perhaps badly, is that the GPS is another tool in the navigators bag that supports their hard earned skills.IMHO the argument is still incorrect. As I stated; by your reasoning, this should bar ownership of the outdoor GPS series to new "casual" geocachers who would use these type of units in "outdoor" environments, but mainly for pinpointing cache locations around town. They are not "navigators" and shouldn't have to be. Most of them are not going to be traveling to some remote mountain settings to find a cache, thusly navigation skills should not be required. There are plenty of caches in urban settings.
In addition, if you look on Garmin's website Geocaching information page, the unit presented 1st is... The 60 series!! Anyone researching geocaching on Garmin's website would have the not-unreasonable assumption that the 60 series "is" the best fitting unit for them, regardless of skills.
For example, if you look at the box. Most every picture of the unit is showing "road" maps. In fact, the desciption says "From CAR, to canoe, to campsite: wherever your spirit...blah blah" A reasonable assumption by someone new to GPS's who is looking at this box in the store, is that this is a "vehicle" GPS first, with a secondary ability to be used outdoors. This would imply to a new user that the primary functionality of this unit is to provide directional assistance on "roads". Land nav skills are not needed.
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I hope Garmin are reading this thread. All very true! I bought a 60CSx a few weeks ago and have been through exactly the same learning curve. The manual is useless. It assumes that you understand what a waypoint, a track and a route are without explaining anything to a complete novice who has no idea. And what the heck is a "proximity waypoint"? No explanation at all.
<rant>
I'm with Garmin on this one. If you do not know the basics of navigation then this is not the place to start! IMHO EVERYBODY needs to start with a map, compass and watch, and learn the skill of navigation. Lose your GPS without those skills and the tools with you, and you will be lost.
</rant>
This is the wrong argument. Lose your map, compass, and watch and you will be just as lost. Yes, dependency on single battery operated devices in hazardous situations is not an ideal situation, but not everyone is trying to traverse the Gobi desert. Wilderness skills should not be a dependency for buying a consumer product.
You're implying that Joe Average, who buys one for use in his automobile, should know all about land nav before he buys one? I daresay that the automobile GPS units use the same terminology and it is doubtful that the expected market for automobile units are well versed in land nav either. So should someone who is buying a GPS unit to involve themselves with simple geocaching at the local city park, be required to know all the details of land nav just to use a gps unit? What would be the harm in adding a little extra information in the manuals?
For many of these people, this unit and others like it WILL BE the place they start and knowledge elitism does not advance their experience.
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What you are asking for is rather like asking the company to sell you two songs off two different discs of a three volume set. Since they can't do that any less expensively than they can produce the whole set, they're going to sell you the whole thing for the price of the two songs--Doesn't it make sense to buy the whole thing?
I would disagree with you here. Apple and the Ipod has proven this wrong. As all the data is in electronic format, there is NO need for "producing" anything beyond the data. They do not need to make DVD's with an electronic Internet point-of-sale. Their mapsource software already shows that smaller area maps can be selectively taken out of the greater whole. The files once generated can be sent by any medium. A simple point-of-sale to these selective files could be assessed to the consumer and tied to any DRM they currently employ.
is usually still visible from the cache site 
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Garmin Oregon Wiki
in GPS technology and devices
Posted
Seems to me there might be two screen issues. Since it's touch screen, you will basically "need" to put a protective plastic cover over it. Dirty fingers/gloves with even a little bit of dirt on them scratch plastic very easy, and anyone outdoors digging around for caches gets dirty hands. Even the best swipe on the pants leaves lots of microscopic scratching junk on the fingers. Yes many auto units have touch screens, but most people driving around don't have dusty grimy hands.
Not a big issue with something like the other outdoor GPS series where there is no need to actually touch the screen. PDA's tend to have a built-in stylus that help prevent this but this unit does not have one built-in. Of course, one could always carry an extra stylus around...
The other issue directly related to the screen is that it seems not as bright/readable during daytime viewing as the 60's or the CO in the first place. Add another layer of protective plastic over the screen and you easily lose another 5-10% light transmission to make it even more hard to view.
Not to be a naysayer, as it looks to be a nice unit. Just some things that bothered me about some touch screen PDA's in the past...