TripCyclone

Actually, in the OP's words: So yes, children were part of the original question. Hence the conversation steering the way it did. However, I agree that I see this turning into another debate so I'm going to stop. From what I read, it's quite obvious that whatever I say is going to be argued as biased because I'm strict, I don't know their kid, or whatever other justification might be used. Anything the other person is going to say is going to be seen by me as biased because of my past experiences with dealing with parents. It's a lose-lose situation. By the way, who said the teacher I quoted wasn't teaching 20-30 years ago? They happen to have been teaching for just over 20 years. So yes, they have the experience to say how the parent/teacher relationship has changed over the last 20 years. However, I will tell a story. Maybe it will explain a bit behind my viewpoint, maybe not. I'm not using this as an arguement for or against what someone else has said in here, only as an example of one of the experiences that leads towards my original arguement that punishment can be a valuable tool if used properly. It is an example of something that happened while I was subbing during my first year out of college. Three kids are seen in a side room at the school during class. Kid one is found bound with duct tape around wrists, ankles, and mouth. The other two are laughing. A teacher discovers this, and tells them to remove the tape. The kid who was bound reaches up and removes the tape from his own mouth. That kid then claims that the other two held him against his well, forced him into the room and ignored his cries for help. Kid two admits to everything, but says that kid one asked them to do it, that kid two bound the wrists and mouth but kid one duct taped his own ankles, and that Kid three stood guard watching for teachers. Kid three claims absolutely no involvement, but admits seeing Kid One and Kid Two go to that room together and that nobody was forced. The teacher who caught all of this argued that after the kid removed HIS OWN DUCT TAPE (indicating that if he truly needed help, he could have removed it and cried out for help), he started laughing about the whole thing, along with the other kids. It is later discovered Kid Two was telling the truth. Kid one lied so he wouldn't get in trouble even though. Kid Three lied because he didn't want to get in trouble. Parent of Kid Two said they got the same story and adds that all three are inseparable friends. Parent of Kid Three claims their kid wasn't even in the room despite several witnesses, both kids and adults, along with both participants, claiming he was. Why? Because that's what their kid said. Parent of Kid One wants the other two punished for what they did and is adament that their kid was forced, despite how he removed his own duct tape then laughed about it, and that the other two parties both claim he wasn't forced. He even tried claiming it was racially based because Kid One was black and Kid's Two and Three were white (remember, Kid One and Two are so close they are like brothers. That has been said by both parents during prior conversations). What was the outcoome? Talking with Parent Three cleared up the issue as their kid finally admitted to what he did. Parent One realized that Kid Two and Kid One are so close that the story doesn't exactly fit. They still argued with the school against the punishment, but realized that something was amis. Vice Principal didn't dish out any punishment because two parents initially complained about it, and they didn't want to anger the parents. Nobody got punished. The kids got off scott free. The next time something happened to Kid One, he complained to parents, parents complained to the school, and that kid got off scott free despite breaking a rule that only a week earlier earned a student a two hour detention for doing the exact same thing. So what has the student learned? Complain to mom and dad such that they complain to the school, kid doesn't get in trouble. Sounds like wonderful justification to avoid using punishment to deter bad behavior. Is my viewpoint biased. Maybe it is. But I've also seen this scenario countless times since I became a full time teacher and not just a substitute teacher. So while biased, it's biased with multiple examples of parent/teacher differences. Sometimes the parent has valid complaints and we listen to them. In 90% of the cases where we've had a difference, we later discover that the parent didn't have the full story.

Well maybe, but even in teaching there must be a huge difference between being in a classroom and being in the playground? I don't suppose you expect the kids to all sit quietly and listen in the playground? It seems rather naive to suppose that kids can't differentiate between different circumstances and act accordingly hence, yes, a lot of my son's behaviour would look undisciplined compared with how you'd expect someone to behave at a funeral or in school lesson. Geocaching is a game, if one of the rules is stealth, making that aspect into a game and keeping it fun should be what it's about. If you have to threaten to leave every 5 minutes the problem probably isn't the kids. Maybe it's because I've been a pupil this will sound harsh, but I can't think of anything more miserable than turning what should be a fun family activity into wandering around from cache to cache with a teacher acting like you're in the middle of a maths exam.... There is a huge difference between a classroom and a playground, and we don't expect to see kids sitting quietly and listening on the playground. I never stated anything to even imply that. But let me ask something. Is merely being out of a classroom-like setting justification for Johnny to misbehave and cause problems on the playground without getting punished? Sounds like you ready to say yes merely because it's not in the classroom. I never said kids can't have fun while geocaching. My comments were made in response to prior comments made about kids who run off yelling "I'VE FOUND IT" or "GEOCACHE!" without regard to possible muggles. Yes, Geocaching is a game, but if your kids aren't able to play along with acting stealthy and not getting the cache muggled, then yes, discipline is needed. I'm not advocating that Geocaching has to be rigidly controlled with kids. Stealth, or acting like a spy, can entirely be a game with kids. But if you set rules such as "Now if you think you've found it, don't yell out 'I'VE FOUND IT' because don't want muggles to know where it is.", then the kids don't follow that rule and yell it out the first time, and you DON'T respond, you are setting your kids up for the idea that they can ignore rules. What if they do it a second, third, or fourth time? Are you going to keep going? At this point, your kids don't grasp the concept and you will attract attention EVERY time until you can convince them otherwise. It's called discipline, and even in games, it's needed. Naive? I deal with over 100 kids in my classroom on a daily basis and over 200 kids in between classes. I've worked with kids between preschool and college age. I've seen kids in classroom settings and on the playground. I've seen an IMMENSE number of kids who can't differentiate between the two and act accordingly. And I've seen parents respond just like you, that their kids know the difference between play time and work time, despite the fact that four teachers are standing there telling them otherwise. If your kid is causing enough problems that you have to threaten to leave every 5 minutes, and you've not only provided some instructions but even given a warning once or twice, and your kid is still causing problems, then yes, the problem isn't the kids. The problem is with the parent. But before saying that maybe the parent is being too strict, maybe you need to ask why your kid didn't respond to your warning? Maybe the kid has learned that eventually, you'll give up and they can do what they want without getting punished? And if you feel I was advocating walking around like it's a math exam, then you need to reread my first post. I never once said that. I said to set some ground rules and stick to them so that you don't draw unnecessary attention to the cache. One of the main points being discussed is trying to avoid caches getting muggled because kids aren't acting stealthy while finding the cache. And if done right, so that the kids understand the value of being stealthy (treat it like they are spies), kids can TOTALLY get into the game and be rather useful. I saw a picture in here yesterday of two kids who threw a toy under a bench so that, while grabbing the toy, they could check for a cache hidden under the bench. Once they got it, they were stealthy in signing it and replacing it...WITH A MUGGLE SITTING ON THE BENCH. Those kids understood the rules for being stealthy while finding a cache...and the older one looked like he was only 10 or 11 years old at best. Funny you should mention how it should sound harsh because you've been a pupil. In a conversation earlier this year, a fellow teacher made a comment. The conversation was about how parents these days seem so ready to blame the teacher when their kid gets in trouble as opposed to parents 20 or 30 years ago. They said "You want to know why parents these days seem so ready to blame the teacher? It's because when they were kids, they didn't like getting in trouble by a few teachers who they thought were being harsh. So, if those teachers were mean and picked on kids, all teachers are mean and pick on kids. Therefore, their kid's teacher is wrong and they choose to challenge the teacher, forgetting all the times that they didn't give their parents the full story so they could try to get out of trouble."

Several others have mentioned going after caches away from urban environments were yelling out that they found it might be less of a problem. Parks with forest trails would be good for that as the kids can run around a bit more and it provides an opportunity to teach some respect for nature. This next answer may seem a bit harsh, but it comes from my experience as a teacher. I see a lot of day-to-day behaviors that scream "lack of discipline", reinforced by parents who "don't know what to do" or "my child isn't like that", etc., etc. My thought is that if you are concerned about your kids or their kids drawing too much attention to a cache, then this is a great opportunity to not only set some rules, but reinforce them. Be ready to cut the trip short if the kids can follow the rules after, say, two warnings. And stick with the decision. Make sure they understand that you're willing to try this again in the future, but that it isn't working that day. If done right, especially if this happens early enough in the day, the kids will make a stronger effort the next time (maybe not perfect as they will likely test you to see if they can get away with it). And make sure if you set this plan, you do it with the support of your neighbors. Nothing will end that plan faster than if the kids can learn that if they don't like one parent's decision, they can bounce to the other for a better decision. I've run into my fair share of parents who try to hard to be their child's friend instead of their parent. The above may seem a bit harsh depending on where you stand on that line. My own views a few years ago were closer to that line then they are now. By the way, someone else mentioned some benefits of geocaching for kids. I'll stand by another one...critical thinking skills. Having to take several pieces of information, including a possible location, rough size (if the container isn't described), possible hiding spots in the immediate area, possible hints, etc., all help provide practice at critical thinking. This skill is not an easy one to properly teach, and many grow up never fully developing it. Just another valuable benefit of geocaching.

1. Add my vote to opening up the doors for someone else who might like to take over running the site (not me...I wouldn't know the first step about PHP). 2. Add my vote to the idea of Groundspeak adopting it. Seems they have helped it out in the past through funding or hosting, so they recognize that their customers want to use the service. Maybe they could now take over it completely, helping their customers continue to use this wonderful stats service. 3. I love the maps too. My favorite part. Also, the clickable D/T grid was very helpful as well.

I ran into this same problem when I tried to start the series in my area. There were two problems I ran into. One was the hide location, which I quickly agreed was not a good place to hide a cache (hadn't looked at it the same way they had) and was willing to move it. The second problem was a little harder to nail down and came down to the cache being against the guidelines. While I highly respect the reviewer I dealt with, the one concern I had with the scenario was that in our back and forth conversations, each arguement used for why it was against the guidelines were, from what I could see, not an actual issue. These were the arguements I got and my thoughts on them: 1. It is a seed cache. - not so sure about this. A seed cache typically has lots of "seed caches" inside, requiring finders to place the seed before claiming a find. In every variation of the "FTF Curse" series that I've ever seen, not once was the placement of the next cache ever required to claim the find. As quoted above, placement of the next cache is only done by the person claiming FTF AND not placing the cache within the listed time only means you are cursed from ever getting another FTF. It never says "You cannot claim the find until after you place the next cache." So arguements that this cache requires placement of a cache to claim a find are invalidated. I still don't understand how this keeps being listed as a reason for why this cache is against guidelines when the cache listing never requires it. 2. It is against challenge cache guidelines - ummm...not a challenge cache so not against challenge cache guidelines. 3. We frown on ALR's. - okay, I ran into this before ALR's were banned, but even with the ban in place, I fall back on this doesn't require a cache to be placed to claim a find, therefore it isn't an ALR. 4. This encourages bad hides placed quickly to claim a find. First, I again point out that claiming a find is not contingent on placing a cache. But about the bad hide part. Now I can understand the fear that this encourages bad cache placements. THAT would seem like a valid arguement. Yet, I'm in agreement with someone else who correctly commented that anyone can place a bad cache, even if they have a lot of experience with geocaching. Use of the "newbie not being experienced enough to place caches" is a poor arguement, though I can again see where a reviewer is coming from on this one. I've frequently seen forum discussions about having a requirement stating that a beginner has a certain number of finds before they are allowed to place a cache and usually see something about "how can you place a number on experience" or "plenty of experienced cachers place bad caches", and that at no point in the near future will TPTB put a restriction on this. If we aren't going to put a restriction on it, then that arguement can't be used in this situation. Also, in this case with the added note that if the person doesn't want to take part in the series, that the curse is with the coin so they can pass on the coin and subsequently not be affected by the curse...this cache does not place added encouragement for newbies to hide something they aren't ready to hide. If they aren't ready, they just pass up on the coin. So use of that reasoning, while seemingly a valid reason, isn't 100% accurate. I had not seen this little twist until this forum post. In my situation, I realized I wasn't going to the cache approved, despite whatever logic I could provide. The reviewer has the final say in this. My reviewer did promise to ask for the advice of other reviewers, but I never did get an okay. I have talked with some other reviewers who do not see a problem with this style of hide, so it's obvious that there is a difference in opinion between even the reviewers. I'm sure some are deadset against it, no matter if their logic is flawed or dead on, so I don't see a consensus forming anytime soon without input from TPTB. Again, the reviewer has final say. I suggest politely talking to your reviewer about why this cache does not REQUIRE a cache be placed to log a find, and point out the added rule about cachers being able to pass up the coin if desired. I'd even consider making sure the coin has a physical note explaining the rules attached in some way to it (maybe a baggie). Take a picture and provide that to the reviewer. Then, politely ask them if there is a way to reword the listing that would meet their satisfaction. Maybe it's the wording that bothers them and rewording it a bit will satisfy them and still get the cache approved. Maybe, just maybe, they might come to realize that they quickly passed judgement and that some of their arguements are already addressed in the listing, they just didn't notice it. I would suspect that this reviewer has heard about this cache style from another reviewer who didn't like it, and is automatically using those arguements without fully understanding how the Curse works. So talking with them might clear up any confusion. Just some thoughts. Oh, and don't forget to be polite with the reviewer. Not a good person to have as an enemy.

Seems someone wasn't happy with the answer they got.

Good points to make. Hey, we'll take anyone who wants to help, whether it's only a few pages or someone who wants to help a little more than that. We are just starting, so there is A LOT that we can expand on. The HELP pages are useful for seeing how to use the site.

It has been renamed to The Geocaching Wiki because "Travel Bug" is the registered Trademark of Groundspeak Inc. Thanks for the fast action TripCyclone. (When you get the chance, you'll need to adjust the title tag for that page.) I have to get someone from the hosting site to do that as we can't change it on our own. I've already put in a request. I e-mailed some other questions to Bryan yesterday. Any chance of having those looked at in the coming days? Just want to have our butts covered.

Hey thanks Ravens. That reminds me that I need to finish getting the replacement clues out for my Mystery puzzle before I leave town next week. I keep getting busy with other stuff and have been meaning to go out and replace the old clues with the new ones, along with replacing a few missing ones that have been reported. Guess I have some work to do in the morning before the heat takes over.

Nope, I don't.

Great, now I feel like an idiot. Hmm...I was looking to see if there was one out there and the one I am linking to was the first one that came up. Thinking back, I've heard of Cacheopedia before but a long time agao. That one definitely looks more built up, and I've actually seen the name of their overarching wiki site before when looking up info on the one we use. I wonder why someone started a second one when there was already one built? At the same time, I also see a lot of some out-of-date material on there, and some areas are more in-depth then others. We'd still like to get some helpers, but I will mention this to the person who started our site. They probably didn't know about it either.

Neither I nor the other administrator have control over that. It's put in place by the main Wiki site and there is not a control to turn it off that I have found. How exactly should I go about getting approval for that? There are countless blogs out there that have ads on them who have posted links on these forums. This site is an information site and considering I have no control over those ads, I would like to contact them about getting permission to post a link in a forum about trying to get other geocacher's to help pool their knowledge into an informational site about Geocaching.

Do you like helping others? Enjoy spreading information about Geocaching? Then come check out the Geocaching Wiki. I recently joined in with running the Geocaching Wiki site. We've been getting some things in place for the site. Now, we would like to reach out to the geocaching community to get some more assistance with developing the site. Right now it's pretty much just me and the site creator. With two people, building up the site takes time. But the nice thing about Wiki sites is that users can contribute. There are lot of items that haven't been covered and many that could probably use more information. So if the above questions fit you, maybe you might be able to help us improve the site. No cost to edit or create an account (which has some benefits). There is no obligation in any way to provide a set amount of contributions or information. Anything helps. A few notes. 1. There is a help page that we've worked on to help you learn how you can contribute, how to make edits, etc. There is a help link on the left sidebar or on the main page. If you have never worked on a wiki site before, then you might want to check out the help for some pointers. 2. On the first page is a list of articles that have been linked to but not created yet. They are articles that could use some help getting them started. If you think you want to help make that page, check out a few other pages first to get some ideas for how to arrange information. 3. If you find a page that has a mistake, help us by fixing it. Peer review and editing is one of the nice parts about a wiki. It may seem like this encourages incorrect information, but it actually helps to avoid it too. Learn how to do so in the help pages. We also have some side projects tied into the site. One is building a repository of GPSr information for geocachers to reference. The basic setup is there, but we are working out some kinks. Two is building a listing of Local Geocaching Organizations. We would really like to build this up as it can provide an easy State-by-State listing of organizations. Anyone can do this and we've tried to make it as easy as possible. On the main page, scroll down to find a Blue and Green box about adding "Local Geocaching Organizations". Follow the instructions for how to get started. Once you've started, there are some more instructions for how to fill out the information. We've tried to make this as easy as possible, so if you have any questions, let us know. Right now, there are only the two of us working on this. We'd like to get this built up as a reference site for geocacher's. More and more people are using specialized Wiki sites to learn about different things. Why not help ensure that a wide variety of correct Geocaching information is available for referencing in a single location. Once again, the site is The Travel Bug: Geocaching Wiki.

Identifying all the ways that a parent can influence you is not an easy task. When I think about the influence my father has had, a few things in particular come to mind. I probably would not be geocaching if it weren't for the deep appreciation for the outdoors and exploration that my father instilled. His father was a military man. Fought in WWII. Talking about it with him was not an option. This also resulted in my father not being allowed to join Boy Scouts due his father's belief that it was a youth version of the military (or something along those lines). When I was old enough, my father got me into Scouting. He got involved as well, even more so as I closed in on Boy Scouts. We had a lot of adventures together, and I am forever grateful for the many opportunities I had as a result of this. It also meant that my father and I developed a stronger bond through those experiences. You don't really think about that as a kid, but looking back, it played a big influence on who I am and what my interests are. My appreciation of the value of family definitely came from all around, both mother and father. So I can't really single him out entirely for that. But his importance in those values is undeniable. It can be seen in the way that my father has been there for me all my life. Help, advice, support. All important aspects of this role he has played. When I first hit the working world, he was there to help me learn the system. With his experience in hiring employees, he was there to pass on his knowledge. He has been there to provide me financial advice from his reservoir of financial experience when needed. And his work has helped to provide me with a stable life growing up, teaching me both the value of money (even though I haven't ALWAYS followed that guidance in the past...amazing how you learn to appreciate that as you get older) as well as respect for those who weren't as well off. I spent a lot of time when I was younger doing volunteer work as a result of that. Even when being punished I was learning. Whether it was the times I got spanked as a kid, or the times I spent learning to manage my ADHD inspired behavior through countless timeouts, groundings, etc., etc. (which of course I felt was applied without regard to my VERY important "It's not my fault/I don't deserve this/YOU'RE WRONG!" point of view at that time). Would I be the person I am without his influence? I'm not sure anyone can really say that a parent hasn't influenced them. Even a parent who isn't there influences you in some way. So I am forever grateful for these influences, and many, many others. Happy Father's Day.

I would be interested too.

I was going to add Cave Springs Falls, but you already have it. I should warn you that while those Jesse James virtuals are all near each other on the map, the finals are really spread out. One is up in St. Joseph. I'll go through some of my finds and see if anything really sticks out. Check out GC1TBT4. Depending on your previous finds, you might already have the goal met. If not, it's possible to get them all here in KC if you plan it right. GC1V4HX is a fun one to grab. Be prepared for some terrain. There's a traditional right next to the parking so you can get two while there. You might want to keep your eyes on GC1JZ18 and see if one of the keys gets dropped. Lots of people have enjoyed that one. In fact, there's a nice drive heading south that includes two others. GC1JZ36 is a challenge and GC1K4PQ is at a cool little waterfall (when it's wet enough to flow properly). Off the top of my head, that's what I have. Okay, so some are mine but I'll see if I can think of any others.

Good to see. The Fire coordinates aren't showing on your Twitter feed. Hmmm...which one was it?

Thanks to a tip from Webscouter., I was able to get Water.

You can follow me at @TripCyclone. I DON'T tweet every find, though I have been known to post the occasional numbers update during a cache run.

While this seems very handy for those of us with collections, I'm not sure how I feel about others being able to "collect" my trackables. While it still shows up as in the hands of that person, it also means that they are more likely to be forgotten. There is no "Collection" box on the "Your Profile" page, so there isn't a reminder that items are in my possession. And if they aren't in the inventory, you don't get the reminder every time you log a cache and see a list of items to drop down below. Yes, I could mark the item as "Non-Collectible", but this creates extra work for me just to make sure that the item isn't collected by someone. Personally, I'd rather see the option to bookmark trackables much like you can with geocaches. It allows me to keep track of items I've run into that I want to follow without haven't to receive the e-mails every time it is logged like I would if it is on my watch list.

Just had this happen while attempting to pull a My Finds PQ after a huge cache weekend. Wait...does this mean when it's fixed I still have to wait a week to run it again. #*%&

Besides the travel bugs issue, and the issue where it tells you the log was unsuccessful but it actually worked, (I haven't seen this log in bug that others have mentioned), I'd like to add that this site isn't as easy to use on a touch screen phone on certain screens. In particular, the initial screen. The links need to be extended beyond a single number. And a blank line needs to be added between each line. Right now, I have to zoom in several times to make the number larger then very carefully hit the number because if I'm too quick, I could select a different option. Looking at the source code, this is something that would take only a few minutes to implement. The links are built in HTML, so simply moving around where the end of the link is would lengthen the link to more than a single character. Then add a line between each option. And I agree, hearing something from TPTB regarding the WAP site would be nice.

TAR, I think your experiment is well thought-out and would be quite useful to give people a sense of how their GPS devices really work. And I am a Real Scientist, even. I am really amazed at the responses you have gotten. Apparently science is not taught very well in the schools any more. At any rate, I think that your original experiment (with the nail) is quite good. Fizzy, I'm guessing you'll be happy to know that as a science teacher, I use this very exercise in my own 8th grade classroom. And we teach it as both consistency and accuracy. I mark three locations. One is a single measured waypoint out in the open. One is a single measured waypoint in the nearby woods. And one is an averaged waypoint in the woods. Students (grouped together due to limited amount of GPSr's), then navigate as close as possible to where their GPSr says I measured the point, and plant a flag. We talk about how averaging can improve the accuracy of the measurement, and how depending on factors such as brush, satellite positions (time of day of measured vs revisited), cloudy vs clear weather, different units, etc, can all affect the accuracy of the signal. Then we talk about how all of the devices seem to consistently veer towards one direction from the original spot during each class. Flags are left up over the course of the day and by the end, each spot has around 30 flags set up.

The written steps may seem long, but it is rather quick. It can be done in about 2-3 minutes. And for uploading field notes...just plug it in and upload a single file to the site. Done in about the same amount of time. Larry, I use the same macro to load but haven't used the other one. Might check it out. Thanks for that tip.

Assuming the system runs exactly like my Oregon 400t (and everything I've read says the system is the same, just the options are different), then here's what to do (on a PC...I don't use a MAC so can't help you there): 1.Plug in your GPSr to the computer. 2.On the GPSr screen, when the screen comes up to use Mass Storage, select yes. 3.If you have Autoplay set up (the little box that will pop up on your monitor soon after step 2), select the option to "Open folder to view files". If Autoplay isn't set up, go to "My Computer" and open up the drive for your Oregon (it should read "Garmin Oregon" with a small blue triangle symbol). 4.This next part is dependent on what comes up first. I have two folders: Garmin & Wherigo. If you see this option, select Garmin. If not, move to step 5 and see if that matches what you see. 5.Now you should see several folders (like GPX, Profiles, Text) and some files. When you upload field notes, the "geocache_visits" file is what you'll upload to Geocaching.com. Find the GPX folder and open it. 6.Delete any .GPX files you desire to clean out the geocaches from your device. The file names will depend on how you load your GPSr. Mine are based on the database I am using in GSAK. If you downloaded straight from the site, you'll see GC codes. Once you delete what you want, you are free to load some more up. Hope that helps. That's the process I use.