What is a geocoin??

January 24, 2002

We tried to go to a cache site that someone left a geocoin at yesterday and it was gone by the time we got there this morning [ ](someone named Hazard got there before us) so we are curious as to what it is??

January 24, 2002

Most likly, it is a coin that cacher Moun 10 Bike had specially made. If you look in the general catagory of these forums, you'll find a thread titled 'what is your signature item'. He has posted in there pictures of it.

January 24, 2002

One of Mount10 Bike's coins.

------------------

Markwell

My GPS Activity Page

Non omnes vagi perditi sunt

January 24, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Markwell:
One of Mount10 Bike's coins.

This has to be one of the best Cache prizes I've seen. I'd certainly be thrilled to find one!

Mount10Bike, would you mind telling us the details of its creation? How many did you have made, and by whom? TIA.

------------------

~Rich in NEPA~

====================================================================

? A man with a GPS receiver knows where he is; a man with two GPS receivers is never sure. ?

====================================================================

January 24, 2002

Wow ! I wish we'd been lucky enough to get there in time to see that. (Ok to get it [ ] ) Hope we get another chance sometime.

January 24, 2002

I saw one of them while I was out west, I do agree it was kinda cool, but I didn't take it. I do wish I had my own geocoins or something similiar to them.

[This message has been edited by mikechim (edited 24 January 2002).]

January 24, 2002

Those who want more info on his coins, look in this thread:

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000571.html

Ron (45 hidden/131 found)

January 25, 2002

Sorry I didn't respond sooner, but I haven't been on the boards much today.

As I mentioned in the "What is your signature item?" thread, I had the coins made by D & R Military Specialties. If you are interested in having some of your own made up, shoot me an email and I'll provide you with the details. They are a bit expensive to have made as a minimum order quantity is required, but in the end it works out to be about $4 per coin.

Another, somewhat cheaper but similar idea is to have custom tokens made. Just a Short Walk turned me on to that idea. I haven't had any made, but he has and they sound like a great item. He ordered them through The Hoffman Mint.

------------------

Jon (Moun10Bike)

N 47° 36.649', W 122° 3.616'

www.switchbacks.com/geocaching.html

[This message has been edited by Moun10Bike (edited 25 January 2002).]

January 25, 2002

Hoffman Mint is not cheap, I had other uses for the coins and was going to have some Tokens made anyway so I decided to shell out the big bucks to get the Die Cut. $196 Bucks plus I still have to buy the Coins.. I should have a Photo soon. But I'll be getting a few thousand coins.. My Antique slot machines will love having nice Signature Geocaching tokens instead of the 25 cent mixed tokens it has now..

Let's see now... Will I trade four Geocache tokens for a Where's George Dollar??

This is the artwork layout that I am having the hoffman mint work on for me.

http://www.geocities.com/younkerd/coin.gif

I'll be leaving several in each cache I visit or plant.

Any Comments?

Just a Short Walk

February 11, 2002

://www.wooden-nickel.com/

February 12, 2002

The wooden nickel place will do 100 for around $50. Gonna try em out.

March 11, 2002

(Blatant Advertising Removed)

[This message was edited by geocachetreasure on March 11, 2002 at 09:50 AM.]

[This message was edited by Jeremy Irish on March 11, 2002 at 11:01 AM.]

March 11, 2002

Wonder how a copyright impacts moun10bike and http://www.geocoins.ca/

March 11, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by geocachetreasure:
(Quote was blatant advertising and has been removed)

sounds like Geo Advertising in the forums.....

"You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you're going, because you might not get there." Yogi Berra

[This message was edited by Jeremy Irish on March 11, 2002 at 11:02 AM.]

6.4k · March 11, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by geocachetreasure:
(Quote was blatant advertising and has been removed)

quote:
[This message was edited by Jeremy Irish on March 11, 2002 at 11:02 AM.]

Missed the post in the canada forum, J-man

Illegitimus non carborundum!

7.4k · March 11, 2002

A while back I was contacted by a Geocaching.com user who asked about the details of having geocoins made. I put together the information I had and emailed it back to her. They are expensive to have made, so I wasn't surprised when she wrote back a couple of weeks ago and said that she wasn't going to order them. She instead said that she was going to get into the business of making them herself, which I thought was a cool idea. In that mail, she asked if I would mind if she used the name geocoins:

quote:
I wanted to know if you would have any issues with my using the term "geocoin" on my website to identify the product?

I said no problem at all, go for it. Well, I didn't know that she was going to trademark the name. I have to say that torques me just a little bit.

March 11, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Moun10Bike:

Well, I didn't know that she was going to trademark the name. I have to say that torques me just a little bit.

I take it you are referring to Jillian Chandler.

We had a good chuckle over this one in CJ's chat room last night. You have no reason to worry. She has used the copyright symbol © NOT the trademark symbol (TM or R).

You cannot copyright a single word (my understanding from the chat room laywers), but you can indeed trademark a coined word (no pun intended). This is not what she has done, or is laying claim to.

If she did have any sense, which she apparently does not based on her post in the Canada forum last night, she would try to trademark the term. A trademark can be a very expensive exercise. I know, I own one.

None the less, Moun10bike has well documented prior usage on the term "geocoin". This would negate her claim to a mark should she make a claim or TM application. In other words, Moun10bike has proven prior usage and would be exempt from a trademark claim for his usage.

For more free legal advise, tune into CJ's GeoLegal chatroom tonight at 6:30 CST.

ad>

7.4k · March 11, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by MrGigabyte:
You have no reason to worry. She has used the copyright symbol © NOT the trademark symbol (TM or R).

However, she is using TM next to "geocoin" in all instances on her web site. Is it just that she has her terminology wrong, and has thus misrepresented this on her web page?

By the way, in case anyone is wondering about my feelings on this, I have no qualms at all with people using the term "geocoin" for anything. I simply don't want to see someone try to seize control of the term and then restrict others from using it.

March 11, 2002

OK, I spoke too soon. I just see she has edited here post in the Canada forum, changing all the copyright symbols to trademarks.

In Canada, it is a Federal offence to use the trademark symbol unless the mark is registered or an application has been applied for and has been formalized by the Intellectual Property Office. I assume this is similar in the US.

[This message was edited by MrGigabyte on March 11, 2002 at 01:03 PM.]

March 11, 2002

I know Jillian and believe her intent was not to seize control of the term geocoin or to keep others from using it. I think she was just trying to protect the investment she made in getting these made.

quote:
Originally posted by Moun10Bike:

By the way, in case anyone is wondering about my feelings on this, I have no qualms at all with people using the term "geocoin" for anything. I simply don't want to see someone try to seize control of the term and then restrict others from using it.

http://img.Groundspeak.com/user/24_700.gif

March 11, 2002

Submitting application for "CacheCoins"...

j/k

-exConn

What is Project Virginia?

7.4k · March 11, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by *merlin*:
I know Jillian and believe her intent was not to seize control of the term geocoin or to keep others from using it. I think she was just trying to protect the investment she made in getting these made.

I'm hoping that this was all done innocently, and have sent a friendly email to Jillian to try to clarify the matter. However, while I understand the desire to protect an investment, I question how can one protect that which one has no right to protect.

March 11, 2002

Doesn't it seem like the term "geocoin" should be generic term used to describe anything along the lines of a coin placed in geocaches? Just like the term "geocache", it shouldn't be owned by anyone. Moun10Bike has graciously 'allowed' anyone to use the term geocoin. This woman who is putting a TM behind it is really misrepresenting her product. What if I put TM after my geocaches?! On the other hand, the folks at geocoins Canada seem to have a nice product and aren't trying to scam on the name.

6.4k · March 11, 2002

Anyway you look at it, she has basically shot herself in the foot. I seriously doubt anyone is going to buy her canadian coin over the forum designed coin, even if it were the same price. The fact is her price was TWICE the price of first canadian coin. The way she attempted to market her product, just hammered the last nail in the coffin, IMNSHO.

I would suggest if she wants some coins of her own, she should buy some of the ones that are already out there.

Illegitimus non carborundum!

1.1k · March 11, 2002

I agree. Geocoin needs to be protected, and should really be used for anyone who creates a coin for a cache. The only way to protect it is to use it *a lot* so it is protected from becoming a trademark. Geocaching went this way (As well as other variations of geocache, etc) when it became an explanation of the activity.

You can also file a response to a Tmark application to have it removed. Since Moun10bike used it back when he has first right to use, and indicated that he wants it free for everyone. I'm not sure how to protect it however without ponying up money to apply for the application.

Jeremy

'

7.4k · March 11, 2002

I have since received a response from Jillian in which she does indeed confirm that she paid to have the term "geocoin" registered. She wants control of the term to protect her business, i.e. so that someone else cannot create shoddy plastic tokens and call them "geocoins" and thus, in her words, "ride the coattails" of her efforts and detract from her business.

I take issue with this. I believe that it is wrong for her to try to trademark the term. As Seth! states, I think that the term should be a generic reference to such items, whether they are glossy, professionally made metal coins or homemade plastic discs.

If she wants to trademark the name of her product, she should come up with a new name of her own creation that specifically identifies her coins and distinguishes them from any others. Trying to trademark "geocoin" equates to calling it her own idea, in my book.

6.4k · March 12, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Moun10Bike:
I have since received a response from Jillian in which she does indeed confirm that she paid to have the term "geocoin" registered. She wants control of the term to protect her business, i.e. so that someone else cannot create shoddy plastic tokens and call them "geocoins" and thus, in her words, "ride the coattails" of her efforts and detract from her business.

I take issue with this. I believe that it is wrong for her to try to trademark the term. As Seth! states, I think that the term should be a generic reference to such items, whether they are glossy, professionally made metal coins or homemade plastic discs.

If she wants to trademark the name of her product, she should come up with a new name of her own creation that specifically identifies her coins and distinguishes them from any others. Trying to trademark "geocoin" equates to calling it her own idea, in my book.

http://img.Groundspeak.com/user/24_700.gif

Is there a place online where we can view this application? And possibly lodge a complaint?

Illegitimus non carborundum!

March 12, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Mopar:
Is there a place online where we can view this application? And possibly lodge a complaint?

Here are the 2 URL's where this information can be found, searching for the term "geocoin"

Note: these URLs may word wrap in your browser window if you have a monitor that is less that 25000 pixels wide!

US Patent and Trademark Office (uspto.gov)

http://tess.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=toc&state=62778v.1.1&p_search=searchss&p_L=50&Back

Reference=&p_plural=yes&p_s_PARA1=&p_tagrepl%7E%3A=PARA1%24LD&expr=PARA1+AND+PARA2&p_s_P

ARA2=geocoin&p_tagrepl%7E%3A=PARA2%24COMB&p_op_ALL=AND&a_default=search&a_search=Submit+

Query&a_search=Submit+Query

Canadian Intellectual Property Office (strategis.ic.gc.ca)

http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/cgi-bin/allsites/search/sendToDataserv/query?phrase=Select%20%

3CB%3Egeocoin%3C%2FB%3E%20from%20%3CB%3ETM%20Lookup%20%28search%20in%206%2C%207%2C%20%26

%208%29%3C%2FB%3E%20within%20%3CB%3EAll%3C%2FB%3E%20with%20a%20status%20%3CB%3EAll%3C%2F

B%3E%20that%20were%20%3CB%3EAll%3C%2FB%3E%20between%20the%20%3CB%3E1%20January%201865%3C

%2FB%3E%20and%20the%20%3CB%3E5%20March%202002%3C%2FB%3E&dev=0&database_name=trde&max_hit

s=100&search_screen=tr&su=/cgi-bin/sc_consu/trade-marks/search_e.pl&search_term=(((((tm+

=+(geocoin))+OR+(tmdesc+=+(geocoin))+OR+(fgnchar+=+(geocoin))))))

6.4k · March 12, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by MrGigabyte:

quote:
Originally posted by Mopar:
Is there a place online where we can view this application? And possibly lodge a complaint?

Here are the 2 URL's where this information can be found, searching for the term "geocoin"

Note: these URLs may word wrap in your browser window if you have a monitor that is less that 25000 pixels wide!

Didnt get them to work, and I dont have time to play right now. Interesting thing, I *DID see a trademark for "Geocache" and it's not Jeremy Irish's.

Illegitimus non carborundum!

March 12, 2002

It is my understanding the she was not trying to protect the name of the product so much as protecting the design of the geocoins she produced. If TM is not the way to do that maybe we can give her some help as to how to accomplish this.

quote:
Originally posted by Moun10Bike:

If she wants to trademark the name of her product, she should come up with a new name of her own creation that specifically identifies her coins and distinguishes them from any others. Trying to trademark "geocoin" equates to calling it her own idea, in my book.

http://img.Groundspeak.com/user/24_700.gif

Again I know Jillian and do not believe her intent was to upset anybody. It was only to make geocoins available to everybody without them having to pay for the upfront cost of having the die made. As Moun10Bike has stated before it is expensive to have them made and there is a minimum quantity.

If she has made a mistake lets stay in the spirit of geocaching and try to help correct the problem and not condemn people for being human and making mistakes.

Just my thoughts....

Kevin...

7.4k · March 12, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by *merlin*:

It is my understanding the she was not trying to protect the name of the product so much as protecting the design of the geocoins she produced. If TM is not the way to do that maybe we can give her some help as to how to accomplish this.

Protecting her design is accomplished by copyright, not by trademarking the term "geocoin." If she trademarks the term and then I produce an exact copy of one of her coins but call it something else, then that is not a trademark violation. I emailed her regarding this yesterday, but have yet to receive a response to that message.

quote:
Originally posted by *merlin*:

Again I know Jillian and do not believe her intent was to upset anybody. It was only to make geocoins available to everybody without them having to pay for the upfront cost of having the die made.

She is able to do this without trademarking the term. The only reason to trademark "geocoin" is to take ownership of it and prevent others from using it to sell coins of their own, something that I don't feel she has a right to do.

quote:
Originally posted by *merlin*:

If she has made a mistake lets stay in the spirit of geocaching and try to help correct the problem and not condemn people for being human and making mistakes.

If this is indeed just an innocent mistake, then I'm all for staying in the spirit of geocaching and working things out amicably. However, I will condemn someone for trying to seize control of that which is not rightfully theirs and then trying to prevent others from using it. It remains to be seen if this is what is occurring in this case.

March 12, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Mopar:

Didnt get them to work, and I dont have time to play right now.

You must stitch the entire URL together. If the entire URL in my post is not displayed as a hyperlink (for example, only the first line is underlined), then it will not work. Copy each line and paste into your address line of your browser AND make sure there is NOT any whitespace characters.

2.7k · March 12, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by *merlin*:
It is my understanding the she was not trying to protect the name of the product so much as protecting the design of the geocoins she produced. If TM is not the way to do that maybe we can give her some help as to how to accomplish this.

I looked in to trademarking an item last year. As stated before it is costly but necessary to legally protect your ideas.

From my understanding a trademark on the name geocoins is just that. She would control the use of the name geocoins. But it will not necessarily protect the designs on the coin itself. If someone was to create a coin with same designs the only thing the that trademark will do is keep someone from calling the identical look coin a geocoin. If she really wants to protect the design she needs to trademark the design itself. If I am total off on this someone please correct me.

A trademarked item needs to be distinctive. For example, Nike Shoes is a trademark. Shoes on the other hand (or should that be foot) can not be trademarked. It is too general. Geocoin seems like a gray area and may not be distinctive enough to even be trademarked. However, Chandler Geocoins or Canadian Geocoins is distinctive enough to be trademarked. Then back to the original concern this would most likely only protect the name but not the artwork on the coins.

- Lone Rangers

7.4k · March 12, 2002

MrGigabyte, are you still able to find references to "geocoin" in those searches? I stitched the links together and the results came up empty. I then tried a search from scratch from the home page of each entity and again came up empty.

I'm not sure if I'm doing something wrong, or if the trademark applications have been pulled.

March 12, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Moun10Bike:

Protecting her design is accomplished by copyright, not by trademarking the term "geocoin." If she trademarks the term and then I produce an exact copy of one of her coins but call it something else, then that is not a trademark violation. I emailed her regarding this yesterday, but have yet to receive a response to that message.

If this is indeed just an innocent mistake, then I'm all for staying in the spirit of geocaching and working things out amicably. However, I _will_ condemn someone for trying to seize control of that which is not rightfully theirs and then trying to prevent others from using it. It remains to be seen if this is what is occurring in this case.

http://img.Groundspeak.com/user/24_700.gif

I will pass this information along to Jillian and make sure she understands that she should copyright the desgins. I did notice that the TM has been removed from the web site and the www.uspto.gov search so I believe she is aware of the msitake.

Kevin...

March 12, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Moun10Bike:
are you still able to find references to "geocoin" in those searches?I'm not sure if I'm doing something wrong, or if the trademark applications have been pulled.

Both searches return corresponding not found result pages. That is, the query on the database returned NO matches, not the that the page was not found.

This means there are no records of applications, formalization, acceptance, expungement or approval of any trademark on the term "geocoin" (BTW, the plural form of a mark is always implied).

This means that no application has been received as of todays date.

March 12, 2002

MrGig: of course, you COULD start calling your coins "Jillians" and trademark that.

> Martin (Magellan 330)

Don't have time to program and record your shows while geocaching? Get a TiVo!

March 12, 2002

OK

I just spoke to Jillian and here is the story.

Jillian was trying to protect the design of her coins and not trying to take the name "geocoin." I told her about the information in the posts and we have changed the application to the Trademark Office to be the Image of the geocoin that she has designed.

Kevin...

7.4k · March 12, 2002

I just received a nice letter from Jillian. She now understands my concerns regarding the trademarking of "geocoin," and as *merlin* states, she is shifting her effort toward protecting her designs rather than the term. "Geocoin" will remain in the hands of the geocaching community, while she will be able to protect her work.

My hat's off to her for being willing to listen to my concerns and address them in a manner that benefits all of us.

Finally, some good news pertaining to geocaching this week!

March 13, 2002

Moun10bike, have you considered trademarking the term yourself, and just give free license to anybody who want to use it?

I know it could be costly to do that, but one concern I thought about is, what's to keep a huge money hungry corporation from trademarking the term themselves? At one point or another a corporation can come along gobble up "geocoin" just because of this sports popularity, especially with geocaching being somewhat "new". I can see this happening as this sport catches on more and more.

Yes, you will have controll over the use of the term, but after reading your posts, I see you have good intentions on keeping the term "free" for use, to anyone.

Just a thought.

2.3k · March 13, 2002

Sorry to give you such a rude awakening, but you are all wrong.

A geocoin is what you have to pay to become a Charter Member for the rest of your lifetime.

Anders

7.4k · March 13, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by drifters:

Moun10bike, have you considered trademarking the term yourself, and just give free license to anybody who want to use it?

I've had a couple people suggest this to me in email, and after all of this, I am giving it some thought. I had assumed that we (i.e. anyone who had "produced" geocoins previously) could just contest such a trademark if it ever popped up and/or was enforced against us, but perhaps that is not the case. If I did trademark the term myself, I would certainly want to allow everyone free license to use it.

By the way, Anders, I love your signature photo!

1.7k · March 13, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by drifters:
Moun10bike, have you considered trademarking the term yourself, and just give free license to anybody who want to use it?

Because that's the almost same as not having a trademark at all. The thing about trademarks is that, unlike copyrights and patents, if you don't defend them, you lose them. The real cost of having a trademark isn't registering it; it's making sure it doesn't become a descriptive term.

Geocoin is already most of the way to being a descriptive term, so defending a trademark on it would be something of an uphill battle.

2.3k · March 13, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Moun10Bike:

By the way, Anders, I love your signature photo!

On popular demand, so to speak.

It's the right suit, but it's not me in it. But this picture was already cut out from the background, so it was easy to use.

Besides, Caroline looks better in the suit than most, anyway.

Anders

7.4k · March 13, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by parkrrrr:

The thing about trademarks is that, unlike copyrights and patents, if you don't defend them, you lose them....Geocoin is already most of the way to being a descriptive term, so defending a trademark on it would be something of an uphill battle.

That matches what I'm learning as I research this. Ideally, no trademark will be necessary for "geocoin" because the term will become so widely used.

March 14, 2002

Getting back on topic from our trademark diversion, perhaps a picture better explains what a geocoin is.

I took this photo at a local cache. Man, did I hit the jackpot! If I only could remember which cache it was....

7.4k · March 14, 2002

Boy, I wish I lived a little closer to Vancouver! I can't wait for my Canadian geocoin order to arrive!

Since the old link above to a picture of one of my geocoins no longer works, here's a new one:

3.4k · March 16, 2002

quote:
... can't wait for my Canadian geocoin order to arrive!...

Me Too! These will be cool way down in Californi-ay.

March 21, 2002

quote:
... can't wait for my Canadian geocoin order to arrive!...

The wait is over... they have already hit the streets. Judging by the feedback in this thread I think we have some happy cachers out there.

March 22, 2002

Yup! I received my coin shipment down here in Texas... shiny shiny! At least two will be prizes at the Dallas/Fort Worth Geo-gathering in mid-April.

Thanks!

> Martin (Magellan 330)

Don't have time to program and record your shows while geocaching? Get a TiVo!

What is a geocoin??

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