Logging Dnfs

[+TeamEimi]

Dear fellow geocachers!

 

We have been geocaching for almost an year now, and having a wonderful time with our new hobby. It is also great to see new nicks entering the most recent logs and statistics lists. The more the merrier!

 

Without any relevant statistics, I have a feeling, that newcomers tend not to log their DNFs as often as the oldies. At least that was the case for us: now that we have gone back to some caches we tried to find last summer, to my great surprise I don´t find our DNFs at all. We don´t seem to have logged them. What a shame, I think now!

 

In our early days I used to think, that DNFs are "meant" for the cases that the cache is most obviously lost. Or for more talented geocachers then us I tried to analyze the DNFs of others to make out, what is the logic and "rules" behind logging a not found cache. We had quite a few conversations with Dad on "whether to log this DNF or not".

 

I know that many geocachers have their own philosphy on when to log a DNF or when to use a note, or when to not log anything. That is fine by me, but I just want to let all the fresh geocachers know, that it is ok and even desirable to log DNFs when you don´t find a cache. There is no need to _not_ log DNFs when you don´t find a cache - nor is there an obligation to do so. Yet I want to point out, that for your personal geocaching history as well as the cache owner they can be very useful.

 

I am sure there are a lot of educational stories to tell of DNFs, on how they have helped the cache owner or other cachers, or would have done so, if they had been logged. I won´t go into them now, but just want to welcome all to this new hobby, and emphasize once again, that logging DNFs is not a shame or against any rules.

 

Johanna

Edited May 30, 2005 by TeamEimi

[+Divine]

I agree!

 

For me it's simple: If I go look for a cache and don't find it, no matter what reason, I log a DNF. That is, if I run out of gas, if my wife calls me to come home, if I can't look for the cache because of present geomuggles, if the cache has been stolen etc. I couldn't find it -> it's a DNF. Simple and true.

 

There are several advantages in logging DNFs. The cache owner and the next searchers can get the idea that there might be something wrong with the cache (the DNF icon doesn't naturally do this alone, it's also what has been written in the log), the DNF stores are often also more entertaining to read than found-its, and most importantly (for me at least): a DNF log is part of the cache's and my personal recorded geocaching history.

 

There is no way I can remember every geocaching trip I've made during my years of geocaching. It's really cool to go back the memory lane and read old logs e.g. back in 2002 and so on. Some of my favorite logs are DNFs, like the one in Thailand on an island later almost totally destroyed by the last December tsunami, or the one in Austria, where I had really great time explaining geocaching to local muggles in German.

 

No way I could remember those all if I hadn't logged the DNFs from them.

Edited May 30, 2005 by Divine

[jupilli]

Vastasin juuri yhteen DNF loggaukseen lisävinkeillä ja tein sen erinomaisen mielelläni.

Mietin juuri puhelinnumeroni lisäämistä profiiliin mutta hiukan se arveluttaa !!

Onkos kellään mitään kokemuksia, tuleeko asiattomia soittoja sopimattomina aikoina ?

 

EDIT: Added xlation, sorry, I did not think what I was doing.

 

I just answered to a DNF logging with additional hints and I was very happy to do it.

 

I am considering if I should add my phone number in my profile but it makes me wonder !!

Has anybody got any unpleasant phonecalls outside 'official' (outside may be 00-07 ??) caching hours ??

Edited May 30, 2005 by jupilli

[+Divine]

Vastasin juuri yhteen DNF loggaukseen lisävinkeillä ja tein sen erinomaisen mielelläni.

Mietin juuri puhelinnumeroni lisäämistä profiiliin mutta hiukan se arveluttaa !!

Onkos kellään mitään kokemuksia, tuleeko asiattomia soittoja sopimattomina aikoina ?

Sorry jupilli, I'm going to answer this in English. You can never know if there are some Brazilian geocachers reading this valuable information.

 

So you are asking if it's a wise move to include your phone number in your profile, and if anyone has got inappropriate phone calls at inconvenient times. I have given my number to quite many geocachers (and obviously it's been passed on), and I do get some calls indeed, every now and then. Still, I'd say the calls have very seldom been inappropriate and (probably) never at inconvenient times. (Actually, I'm pretty bad in answering my phone calls. The phone is on the silent mode very often, and I don't always carry it with me. So if I don't answer, it's not because of who's calling - necessarily. ) Mostly the calls I receive are about when a geocacher is stumped at the cache site and is wondering if the container is missing. Especially in those cases I'm glad to help, although myself I usually don't want anyone else to tell me where the cache is. I mean, what's the point of going to search a cache and then ask someone else where it is?

 

Anyway, I've done that in some cases, mostly by asking for a hint when I'm almost sure the cache is missing. Embarrassigly often it isn't. I've tried to cut down the amount of my calls to other cachers. I probably did it more in the past. To put my number on the profile page... I dunno about that... probably it's ok, but I prefer to give it to someone else rather in person.

 

I'm still proud of my DNF logs, and I prefer logging them instead of just calling someone and ask where it is.

[jupilli]

Sorry jupilli, I'm going to answer this in English.

 

You are right Divine, and I am sorry, I was trying to do several things at the same time (like conversation with my wife ) and did not concentrate enough. My reply should have been in English ofcourse.

 

Anyway, I have been checking some profiles, and there seems to be very few phone numbers in there.

I do answer my phone almost 24/7, it used to be neccessary to do my job, and today I feel like beeing able to close the call very short if I feel like it, so I have not changed my behaviour. I get very few disturbing calls, and I do not want to change that.

If anybody wants to reach me, you are welcome to use eMail via GC.com. I'll propably answer sooner than expected !!

My phone number will not be found in my profile in near future !!

[+jemann + avec]

We were caching in 21.5. in Kanavuori, by jupilli. After we had walked the trail once, missed all the (right) numbers and then rechecked all the poles (and naturally rewalked the trail) and still found only seven numbers of eight, I was ready to take my mobile and call to jupilli If I only had the number... Well anyway, that was the first time I felt like asking for help via phone. Luckily (for jupilli) I wasn't sure if I recalled his name right so we weren't able to ask number from directory enquiries. Finally we found the cache anyway, but boy, it took time. but we had fun.

 

I have to admit that we didn't log all dnfs when we started geocaching. In some cases we thought that probably the cache is there and we tapdoles just could find it. Those caches were all quite near our home so we were able to take another try in another day - and finally found the caches. If I'm right, there were two dnfs we did't log, and both of those caches we found on second try. Still, nowadays our policy has changed...

 

avec

Edited May 31, 2005 by jemann

[+Team Pitkis]

We, in Team Pitkis, have composed a guideline concerning DNF:s for ourselves and It's quite simple to follow. We do log DNFs in cases we have made a proper attempt to find the cache. That means that if attempt was postponed by pending dusk or something like that, that does not count as a proper attempt.

 

Instead of logging evey single visit or every single idea of the possible riddle solution are not that interesting material for other cachers. But when the DNF logging is limited to those proper attempts, some hints may be given away about the wrong approaches. Of course the cache owner has his/her say in possible hints, but in general I have personnally found many DNFs to be very illuminating when solving the riddle.

 

As it was mentioned earlier, those DNFs give the cache owner some feedback concerning the difficulty/terrain appreciation and suggestions on when to time ones maintenance visits and so on.

 

So summa summarum... I'm very much pro-DNFs and at least we in this team find them very welcome in our own caches.

 

Aki from Team Pitkis

[+Vilosparta]

We are wondering, that why it is so difficult to report DNF's? We think that it is one big part of geocaching and there is nothing to shame. We have been asked for more information to one of our caches, and there is no DNF reported? Our next "100" goal will be 100 reported DNF's.

[+Von_Ronn]

Ofcourse the cacheowner might get worried if already 2 dnf markings from same person,like me in summer at Sivuraide (nowbody visited at the time there, only mrs who couldn´t find) Well finally, with a small tip it was found)

Still as I have now made already 1 mark of DNF at Lintsi, I won´t tell at the moment that I have been there alreday 3 times ( I suppose one time DNF mark is enough from me

But no additional hints, thanks, next time I visit there I surely take mr with me, there is just sthing my brains don´t figure

 

I have never been shamed of not finding the cache (C-trees I have also visited twice and as I visit there so seldom, I might mark each time DNF, besides it´s good that somebody has made after my visit log that it´s anyway there)

But twice I´ve heard the comment from somebody, that they didn´t mark of that reason that "it was easy cache, but I didn´t found)

 

Still, it´s even more fun after you find the cache, and see how logical it anyway was(or if being a "puusilmä"

so hopefully everybody also log dnfs it this happens.

 

mrs

[GermanSailor]

For me it's simple: If I go look for a cache and don't find it, no matter what reason, I log a DNF. That is, if I run out of gas, if my wife calls me to come home, if I can't look for the cache because of present geomuggles, if the cache has been stolen etc. I couldn't find it -> it's a DNF. Simple and true.

 

Sorry,

 

but you shouldn't log a DNF if you didn't look for the cache!

 

Do you want me to go and check the cache as an owner, just because your wife called you home?

 

That makes no sense. DNF should be a notification to the cache owner that the caches is probably no longer there. If someone log a DNF on one of my caches, and I check and see that it is still there, I would write this person a mail an tell him/her to try again, probably giving a little hint. At least that was done for me when I started and had a couple of DNF due to not yet developed GC-eyesight.

 

GermanSailor

[+sparris]

... DNF should be a notification to the cache owner that the caches is probably no longer there...

 

Well, not quite so. In my opinion, a DNF is an indication that some attempt has been made to find the cache, but for one reason or another it has not been found. The text in the DNF log entry should describe the reason for the failure. One of the most recurring reasons (at least for me) is the sudden appearance of swarms of muggles, or too tight a schedule for a proper search. In these cases the DNF does not imply that the cache is not there - it just means that it was not found this time.

 

Of course, if the DNF log entry says that the cache has been searched for two hours in all possible and impossible places and still not found, the owner might want to go and check the well-being of the cache.

 

It all boils down to the actual reason for not finding the cache - this should be explained in the log entry.

 

but you shouldn't log a DNF if you didn't look for the cache!

 

With this I agree. If one never even gets near the the cache location, it can not be a DNF. The only exceptions are perhaps incorrectly solved mystery caches where the you can instantly see that it can not be right (because the coordinates are in the middle of a lake, or something else impossible)

[+ncfinn]

If I find myself on the wrong side of a river, for instance, or for some other reason can not get near the right location, I may post a note.

 

I hate it when people post a find and say something like "I was here and tried to find the cache three times before I got it" without ever posting a DNF. I look at the # of DNF's when deciding wheather I will look for a cache or not.

[GermanSailor]

... DNF should be a notification to the cache owner that the caches is probably no longer there...

 

Well, not quite so. In my opinion, a DNF is an indication that some attempt has been made to find the cache, but for one reason or another it has not been found.

 

 

Well, seems we have two different approaches to the logs.

 

For me the DNF are a "service" to the cache owner saying: "Hey dude I looked for your cache for a while, but couldn't find it. Is everything okay with it?" As mentioned before, the cache owner can check it, wait for some more DNF to happen or give a little hint.

 

If I have to abort the search for a cache because of muggles, weather, wife, spontaneous combustion, high taxes or an alien invasion, simply try again later and (if at all) post a note. But a DNF in that case is of no real use for the owner. More a help for your own stats, so you no what you have to do.

 

But who cares, as long as you make clear in your log entry what exactly happened, it doesn't really matter.

 

GermanSailor

[+Viperazzi]

Great that there's some discussion about this "phenomenon". It would be nice if there was some other type of log possible for an unsuccessful cache hunt. For example, "Didn't finish searching" and then reasons like NATSBOG, out of available time, too hungry, too tired, and so on... As said, this though isn't really that important for anyone else than the cacher in question and for his/her stats...

 

Nevertheless, actively logging DNFs is helpful in my opinion. Sometimes I'm just too disappointed if I can't find anything and don't just want to log DNFs.

[+Tervas]

...It would be nice if there was some other type of log possible for an unsuccessful cache hunt. For example, "Didn't finish searching" and then reasons like NATSBOG, out of available time, too hungry, too tired, and so on...

In these cases I usually post a note (Not always though).

Example and another.

[+sparris]

... As said, this though isn't really that important for anyone else than the cacher in question and for his/her stats...

 

Not only to the cacher him/herself. As a cacheowner, at least I am always delighted to hear of any activity around my own caches (which has recently been far too seldom) and this includes DNF log entries. And as Tervas said, even writing a note would serve this purpose if one does not get the chance to actually search for the cache, for whatever reason. Feedback is always welcome and it may even lead to improvements in the cache or the description.

 

And the DNF entries also provide some information to cachers who are planning to search these caches. For example, if I read that somebody has been disturbed by muggles, or couldn't search the cache because of inadequate equipment, it will help me prepare better when I come for the cache.

 

It is better to log than not to log!

 

And as an aside, I wish that people would be more verbose in all their log entries. I think texts like "Found it. TNLN" are rather boring. Unless, of course, the cache has also been boring and deservers nothing more. After all, making a cache requires some effort and it would only be polite to the cacheowner to write something more in the logs.

[+Pike4]

When I started geocaching in June 2006 I first reported all DNFs. Then I realised that people wrote (f.e.): "This was our fifth visit at the cache and we finally found it." So I felt quite stupid to report my DNFs and deleted most of them.

 

It is good to hear the discussion about reporting DNF and also the point of view that it is not a shame not to succeed in finding a cache at every try.

 

[+Luuppis]

Pike4, what have you done, are really removed most of your DNF logs? What a pity! It isn't really a shame log DNFs. I log DNF every time I have a real intention to search a cache and I have visit the cache site - I think a NATSBOG is also a DNF! I have found 339 cache's and I have logged about 40 DNF's at now. So it means about one DNF for 8,5 find. However, I don't think I'm a bad cacher

[+Pike4]

I think a NATSBOG is also a DNF!

Thank you, Luuppis, for your kind words! I think, little by little I learn how to find and report the caches.

A question: What is the meaning of NATSBOG? I did not find it in the glossary.

 

Happy hunting!

[+ekhoc]

A question: What is the meaning of NATSBOG? I did not find it in the glossary.

Not able to search because of geomuggles.

[+Tizzie]

When I started out I didn't log DNFs. If I had there would be more DNFs than "founds"! Now I'm not bothered about looking stupid if I can't find a cache. I've seen enough logs from cachers way more experienced than me who had logged a DNF or a "found it, but it took me ages", then I turn up a couple of days later and go straight to the cache, so why be embarassed about admitting you couldn't find it? We can't all be perfect all the time

 

I log a DNF if I think I really have looked everywhere, and a note if I CNH (could not hunt) due to the whole world and his wife being there.

[+sparris]

As recycling is of utmost importance today, I decided to utilize this old thread instead of starting a new one. The subject is close enough to my purpose.

 

I was perusing through the recent log entries today, and there were at least three cases where cachers had logged a cache as found, although they were not able to actually get the container in their hands. This was mainly because they were frozen in place, but at least one said that they were able to see the cache but the climb was too difficult for them.

 

What's the general consensus about the issue? I feel very strongly that, unless one is able to actually physically get the container in one's hand, it cannot be logged as found. As a rule (with exceptions, if under some extraordinary circumstances) everything else should be logged as DNF or a note. This applies especially to high T-rating caches, where overcoming the difficulties of the terrain is a part of the challenge.

 

I won't lose any sleep over the matter, I will still follow my own principles and log only caches that I can attain. But I would like to know what the majority of cachers think about this.

[+sikajack]

I feel very strongly that, unless one is able to actually physically get the container in one's hand, it cannot be logged as found.

I second that! Found is a found if and only if the logger gets the cache container in his/her hands. Only exception is a group search, where one can write the nicks of those that were participating the search. In those cacses often all can see the container and if they want, also log themselves personally though.

[+small oaks]

We second this too. Seeing is not enough (of course this doesn't apply virtual and webcam caches). Touching maybe enough sometimes. But it's the cacheowners job to accept found it loggings. Maybe write a personal message to that specific geocacher.

I mean that logging your visit in a logbook inside the cache should always be your goal. Some caches idea depends just that you can get or reach the box and even get it opened. These web loggings and numbers and stats from those are just the peach topping in a cream cake.