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Phantom_Dog

Central Indiana Land Trust Inc.

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It appears as though the Central Indiana Land Trust Inc has established themselves a geocaching account solely for the purpose of pointing out caches that are not in compliance with the new DNR guidelines. I will not reveal how I figured this one out. What in the world did we ever do to them? We have enough of a "big brother" problem, now we have this older cousing breathing down our backs too? Isnt living under a microscope great? I wonder what will happen if any of us do screw up some day?

 

I for one have had it with being precieved as some scofflaw who is out to destroy the world with my little GPS device. I would bet that most of us are out there to have a little fun and keep our natural areas clean. What more could anyone want?

 

As for CILTI, they will NEVER recieve another cent from me nor will I ever waste another single second on one of their workdays. Go and print that in the Acorn! They preach "stewardship" but we get hunted down for practicing exactly that.

 

Mark up another point for the Cache Nazis. :lol:

 

Contact information:

 

Heather Bacher, Executive Director

Central Indiana Land Trust Incorporated

324 West Morris Street, Suite 210

Indianapolis, IN 46225

Ph: (317) 631-LAND

Fax: (317) 638-LAND

Email: info@cilti.org

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To me, this is far preferable to the gc.com approvers doing it on the front end; which is what they do now. They're the land manager, let them manage (and police) ...`

 

It's sad, but in many areas we're going to join the Mountain Bikers and Paintballers on the list of undesireables ...

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To me, this is far preferable to the gc.com approvers doing it on the front end; which is what they do now. They're the land manager, let them manage (and police) ...`

 

It's sad, but in many areas we're going to join the Mountain Bikers and Paintballers on the list of undesireables ...

Shouldnt it be up to the DNR, not some Eco-Liberal group that is not an official element of either the state (DNR) or of the geocaching community. We do a great job of policing ourselves, we dont need a third party jumping on us. Many of the land managers for the DNR have been working with geocachers over the years to assure that caches are properly placed, and some of these same land managers think the extra paperwork is unneeded and only causes them more work for very little gain.

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Quite disgusting if true. I'll certainly look to see whose behind things when donataing time ot dollars. I certainly agree with the general ideas but this is quite overboard.

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Phantom-Dog, the Central Indiana Land Trust established an account at Groundspeak because it was brought to our attention that there was an unauthorized cache on one of nature preserves we own and manage. We did a search to locate any other unauthorized caches and found no others on our preserves. We also posted to the site that the cache was removed as Groundspeak did not reply to our requests to have the cache removed from the webpage.

 

CILTI's stewardship policy prohibits certain activities on our preserves including but not limited to horseback riding, camping, rock climbing, littering, vehicles, the collection of any plants, animials or minerals, and also prohibits geocaching. Our policies for preserves are similar to those of DNR and The Nature Conservancy. Some of our sites are state dedicated nature preserves and, by Indiana state code, geocaching is not allowed. Our concern is being able to monitor the activity with limited resources. Many of of these preserves contain fragile species and ecosystems and/or no trail systems.

 

While signed in under CILTI's login I saw an illegally placed cache at a state preserve and notified the owner as a courtesy so they could retrieve the cache if they wanted to. CILTI has not and does not intend to police geocachers. Our only interest is providing adequate protection to the nature preserves in our care.

 

I've had pleasure of doing some geocaching while working on my geography degree in Texas. I certainly enjoyed the treasure hunt and only went where landowner's permission for access had been granted. Now, working as a natural resources professional, I understand the fine balance between utilizing the land for fun and enjoyment and protecting it.

 

I know that there are many sites available for geocachers including many state owned lands and public parks. I think Groundspeak is a great resource for the geocaching community to find these sites. Thank you for respecting our position as land owners and managers.

 

Heather Bacher

CILTI Executive Director

www.cilti.org

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Phantom-Dog, the Central Indiana Land Trust established an account at Groundspeak because it was brought to our attention that there was an unauthorized cache on one of nature preserves we own and manage. We did a search to locate any other unauthorized caches and found no others on our preserves. We also posted to the site that the cache was removed as Groundspeak did not reply to our requests to have the cache removed from the webpage.

 

Heather Bacher

CILTI Executive Director

www.cilti.org

I'm sorry if I missed something, but did you try contacting the cache owner about your concerns?

 

Wulf

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CILTI has not and does not intend to police geocachers. Our only interest is providing adequate protection to the nature preserves in our care.

I did not realize that CILTI was responsible for the care of the Big Walnut Natural Area. That is because they are not!

 

Tall Timbers Trail

 

Yet they request archiving of the cache. If that is not policing, I do not know what is. Liars disgust me.

 

It is also great to hear that we are right up there with horseback riders, rock climbers and litterers (not a word but you get the point)! I guess we will be promoted to the ultra high-impact users sometime soon like mountain bikers, painthballers and off-road rally drivers.

 

It is so sad that alleged environmental "professionals" do not see the opportunities afforded by our sport. You can talk stewardship all day long, but we are the ones who actually practice it day in and out.

 

It is poor form to bite the hand that feeds you.

Edited by Phantom_Dog

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OK, let me defend what CILTI is doing. I have no relationship with them.

 

If a cache is placed in an area that violates the land manager's rules, this site does not want to list that cache.

 

Pointing out such caches could be called "policing". Or it could be called "fixing problems before they get to the point that we have South-Carolina-like legislation".

 

I think we are better off following the rules than acting like kids who see what we can get away with.

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I am going to jump in on the side of following the rules and self-policing ourselves. Fortunately we in Indiana do not have too many "you can not place a geocache here" rules for public or quasi-public areas. The major ones that I know are (1) not in state (DNR) nature preserves, (2) only with permission in state parks and (3) not in CILT areas. If we don't like the rules then we should try to get them changed. Certainly one way to try to get CILT to change its mind on caching would be to withhold money from them and to write a polite letter explaining why you are doing so.

 

The account "CILTI" -- just like the rest of us -- has every right and responsibility to press that "should be archived" button. It is there for a reason: to report major problems with the cache including problems with illegal or unsafe placement. If the cache placer disagrees with the archive request then the cache placer can have GCing.com ignore it.

 

However it is unclear to me who actually manages the land that the Tall Timbers cache is on. According to their web site it does not seem to be a DNR place. Is it a Nature Conservatory location? Is it both? Was it "dedicated" from someone to the DNR? The maze of land stewardship within Indiana can be confusing! From what I read the new DNR rules as of Jan, 2005 concerning "no caches on nature preserves" applies solely to DNR properties. Although other nature preserves may decide to also use the same rules. It would be nice to have a summary of known rules and regulations as well as who manages what.

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Big Walnut Preserve is a dazzling scenic area situated among the rolling hills and steep ravines of Big Walnut Creek Valley. Since 1985, the preserve has been co-managed by the Conservancy and the Indiana Department of Natural Resources Division of Nature Preserves (DNP). 

 

 

Nature Conservancy

 

Has the Nature Conservancy said that geocaching is forbidden?

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Thanks for the link.

 

Has the Nature Conservancy said that geocaching is forbidden?

 

The Nature Conservancy does not mention geocaching anywhere on their web site. From what I can tell it is neither a permitted activity nor a banned activity. I did find a note on the internet that said that in Iowa it is possible to place geocaches on NC land with the permission of the NC. This may be also true in Indiana. Has anyone done this?

 

However it is still unclear to me if Big Walnut is part of the DNR. The link you gave mentions the co-management of Big Walnut by the NC and by the DNR. So it may fall under the DNR rules. Furthermore if the NC land has been "dedicated" to the DNR (as per document IC 14-31) then the land also falls under the DNR rules. Thus it is possible that Big Walnut is not open to geocaching due to the DNR rules no matter if the NC allows or disallows geocaching.

 

Very confusing! At least to me.

 

--------------------

 

In any case all of the above does not take away the right of the user known as 'CILTI' to request an archive of the cache and the responsibility of the cache owner to show that they have permission, either implicit or explicit, to keep the cache in its current location.

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Team-Tigger, in answer to your question, yes, we tried to contact the cache owner at Burnett Woods and was unable to get through. Burnett Woods is the only state dedicated nature preserve in Hendricks Co and has one of the best spring wildflower displays in this area. There is a loop trail but the cache was way off trail and there were posts on the site that referred to "bushwacking" etc. We located and removed the cache. I was finally able to get in touch with the cache owner and we exchanged congenial emails.

 

As to the Tall Timbers cache, I think my original post was unclear... here is is again with some revisions:

"While signed in under CILTI's login (doing CILTI stewardship work to see if there were any other caches places on CILTI property without permission) I saw an illegally placed cache at a state preserve and (as a private citizen who used that trail and not as a CILTI representative, I) notified the owner as a courtesy so they could retrieve the cache if they wanted to (before someone official removed it). CILTI has not and does not intend to police geocachers (in Central Indiana or on property that we do not own or manage). Our only interest is providing adequate protection to the nature preserves in our care."

 

The ownership at Big Walnut can be confusing. Both TNC and the DNR Div of Nature Preserves owns land there. Tall Timbers is a state dedicated site and is owned and managed by DNR Nature Preserves and is subject to the new Jan 05 rules.

 

Thanks to those of you who are supportive.

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As responsible Geocachers, we should notify Geocache owners if their cache has been placed in an area that is not suitable for geocaching or they have not followed the guidelines for that area. Such as seeking permission.

If we do not police our own, then someone else will do it for us and the end result may be negative.

If I have contacted the Land Manager about placing a cache on an area and have followed the rules and received permission to do so, and I see a cache that is in the same area and I know it has not gotten permission, I will contact the owner and make them aware of the rules for the area and who to contact. If they fail to do that, then I will contact the Land manager and have them contact the cache owner. After that it is up to the Land Manger to remove the cache or not.

If I have followed the rules, then you should too. The opportunity to geocache on our parks and public land is a priviledge, not a right.

Most rules and regulations on our parks have been started because of an abuse of a prviledge or the resource.

I agree with CILT, they are being a resonsible Land manager and did take the appropriate steps necessary in this situation.

Oh BTW I am a retired Illinois DNR Region Land Manager and not affiliated with CILT.

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As responsible Geocachers, we should notify Geocache owners if their cache has been placed in an area that is not suitable for geocaching or they have not followed the guidelines for that area. Such as seeking permission.

If we do not police our own, then someone else will do it for us and the end result may be negative.

If I have contacted the Land Manager about placing a cache on an area and have followed the rules and received permission to do so, and I see a cache that is in the same area and I know it has not gotten permission, I will contact the owner and make them aware of the rules for the area and who to contact. If they fail to do that, then I will contact the Land manager and have them contact the cache owner. After that it is up to the Land Manger to remove the cache or not.

If I have followed the rules, then you should too. The opportunity to geocache on our parks and public land is a priviledge, not a right.

Most rules and regulations on our parks have been started because of an abuse of a prviledge or the resource.

I agree with CILT, they are being a resonsible Land manager and did take the appropriate steps necessary in this situation.

Oh BTW I am a retired Illinois DNR Region Land Manager and not affiliated with CILT.

I was wondering, do you think that the land management you contacted knows of the geocaching.com website?

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Yes they do. I instructed them on how to setup an account, so they could contact the owners.

The Site(s) they manage are geocache friendly and all they want and the policy requires is that permission, plus some other minor stuff be obtained.

If a cache is found on the website that is on DNR property, that this area manages, they contact them via email and request they contact the office. If they fail to do so in so many days, then the Illinois reviewer is contacted. If that fails to get action they remove the geocache and notify the owner.

Not all Illinois land managers may do the above. Each area may have their own method.

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Yes they do. I instructed them on how to setup an account, so they could contact the owners.

The Site(s) they manage are geocache friendly and all they want and the policy requires is that permission, plus some other minor stuff be obtained.

If a cache is found on the website that is on DNR property, that this area manages, they contact them via email and request they contact the office. If they fail to do so in so many days, then the Illinois reviewer is contacted. If that fails to get action they remove the geocache and notify the owner.

Not all Illinois land managers may do the above. Each area may have their own method.(2)

Ok, you've confused me a little bit. haven't you also said "If I have contacted the Land Manager about placing a cache on an area and have followed the rules and received permission to do so, and I see a cache that is in the same area and I know it has not gotten permission, I will contact the owner and make them aware of the rules for the area and who to contact. If they fail to do that, then I will contact the Land manager and have them contact the cache owner. After that it is up to the Land Manger to remove the cache or not."(1)

 

If the LM knows of and used the gc.com website, do you still contact them and let them know about a cache (a cache they would in theory know about from checking the site) ?? or were you talking about differen't park systems?? or :P

 

In situation number one I too would contact the other cache owner and let them know about the areas policy. But I don't think I would contact the land manager. I don't see it as my job to point it out to the land management. Especially when I know they've been told of the geocaching.com etc. Maybe it would be different if somewhere I'd been asked to play deputy or it was in the agreement to place there,but so far that hasn't happened.

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Even if a LM knows about the web site, they do not always have the time to check and see if new caches have been placed. They also do not have the time to check for illegal dumping etc. Todays economic environment has been tough on budgets, staffs and equipment.

Even if you contact a cache owner about getting permission or giving them theguidlines, they ignore you! If they respond to me in a positive matter I let the matter drop for a while and check later to see if they follow through. If not then I notify the LM to follow up.

I guess the bottom line is by policing ourselves, we protect the priviledge of geocaching in an area, whether it is a State park, city park or whereever. It is also creating a good relationship with that LM and showing that you are a responsible geocacher that cares about the sport and wants to see it continued.

Take a look at what has happened at Charlestown SP in Indiana and in South Carolina.

( See threads in Regional forums) These all came about because of lack of permission and a new policy as well as other factors.

We can not turn our backs on the caches that are not following the rules and regulation or soon that will be the norm and soon a new policy will come out and restrict geocaching even more.

I firmly believe in working with not against the Managers of areas as a means to continue geocaching there and getting some good relations established for future geocaches and geocachers in the area.

I do not want the geocaches removed from an area because they do not have permission, however if they ignore the request to get permission, then they deserve to be removed as they have shown a disrespect for the rules and the LM.

I guess I am in a unique position, as I have been on the LM side of the coin and now am a geocacher.

Everything I have stated can apply to any activity that is allowed on public property, not only geocaching.

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I did not say work against, I question if it is always a good idea to report something benign like geocaching? could doing so cause more problem (like maybe banning) than it solves?

If the LM know of caching and doesn't rate it of high enough importance to periodically check, should I rate it higher? I personally wouldn't want to alarm them by pointing out such a problem... If you have a relationship with them so you know they won't freak out, good. But its hard to predict the future :angry:

In terms of gc.com if the LM has a written and published (I mean known!) the reviewers will help check these things. However, if the LM doesn't (back to it not be that important), then caches placed in their area get rubberstamped. I am not promoting caches with getting permission where needed! Just pointing out how things are working right now.

No doubt some caches in South Carolina that had no permission were yet another black eye. But they were one of several factors. If you read some of those threads you also know that the lady pushing for those proposals, either was grossly misinformed (and didn't make much effort to learn) or purposely misleading the other legislators. Another was likely the fact that FEW people geocache.

To me large scale geocache prohibitions would be like closing the campground because someONE decided that breaking glass bottles in the parking lot, and using a picnic table for firewood would be good use of the area. Instead of cleaning the glass, getting another table, and trying to watch more closely it doesn't happen again.

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