Benchmarks Don't Count!

[+WxGuesser]

I just went and my first 2 benchmarks today and I realized quickly that they don't count in my overall finds. I guess they aren't geocaches afterall.. but dadgum atleast count them!

[Bill93]

They do show up in the statistics under your profile, just like travel bugs which also aren't included in the cache total.

 

Holograph has been posting a monthly benchmark statistics summary that will let you see what the competition is like.

 

Some of us, however, don't worry too much about statistics and logging all the easy ones, but get a charge out of the historiical and field detective work that is often needed to find a benchmark that is long unreported.

[evenfall]

That is a long time bummer with people here WX Guesser. Most have accepted it, but many have wished that the statistics that are kept were kept a bit differently.

 

Sorry, but no one here has an answer. Perhaps you could email Geocaching for us, get an answer and report back?

 

Rob

[+Subterranean]

Well, here's my take on it. I find it strange benchmarks are even given a category on the stats page. Geocaching is about cachers hiding things for other cachers to find with a GPS. Benchmarks, of course, are missing this hidden to be found by others aspect.

 

There are many other things (high points, degree confluence points, etc.) that can be found with a GPS, but have nothing to do with caching. Benchmarking, in my opinion, is similar to these. I don't think it should even be given a stats category and certainly shouldn’t count in the geocache find total.

[+Harry Dolphin]

There are many other things (high points, degree confluence points, etc.) that can be found with a GPS, but have nothing to do with caching. Benchmarking, in my opinion, is similar to these. I don't think it should even be given a stats category and certainly shouldn’t count in the geocache find total.

Well, actually, highpoints qualify as a Locationless cache. 'H' Is For Highpoint Of course, the highpoint that I did also had a benchmark.

And I know of two caches at degree confluences, including one of mine: ET Dial 00.000. Though, confluences themselves are not caches, per se, unless you log them for A Pair of Quintuplets.

It does sound as though Locationless and Virtual Caches will soon become a separate category, as Benchmarks are now.

 

And if you don't think some of these benchmarks are well hidden, you have another think coming.

[evenfall]

subterranean,

 

I sort of agree with you in a 180º out sort of way. I don't Geocache. There is not a bone in my body that even wants to. But I think the treatment of Benchmark hunting statistics for those who enjoy this hobby could be treated better and could be done in a more effective way than the way it is.

 

Though it has been asked for many times, there has been no response whatsoever from the TPTB. I guess than means they are not workin' on it.

 

I do think Benchmarks Could be a better tracked Category at geocaching. I would definitely Advocate keeping it separated from Geocaching Statistics. It would be ineffective to water down the numbers that way. I suppose a total of all finds of any type found could be a category if it was wanted by many. I feel it would seem rather smug and somewhat like high minded and elitist thinking to feel that benchmark hunting statistics not be included in any way.

 

I checked your Stats. Since you don't benchmark hunt nor contribute here in the Forums at all, and just barely Geocache for that matter, I don't see where you really have any place making exclusionary statements about benchmark hunting whatsoever. I would consider your advocacy if you were a participant of the hobby, but since your opinion appears to be 100% armchair driven, I won't. Your Post here basically makes you appear as if you are a Troll. But it is just your .02...

 

Rob

[+Subterranean]

And if you don't think some of these benchmarks are well hidden, you have another think coming.

I certainly never said nor meant to imply that!!

 

I surely don't see anything wrong with benchmark hunting as a hobby, I just don’t see what it has to do with caching.

[+Subterranean]

I checked your Stats. Since you don't benchmark hunt nor contribute here in the Forums at all, and just barely Geocache for that matter, I don't see where you really have any place making exclusionary statements about benchmark hunting whatsoever. I would consider your advocacy if you were a participant of the hobby, but since your opinion appears to be 100% armchair driven, I won't. Your Post here basically makes you appear as if you are a Troll.

Huh??

[holograph]

It has nothing to do with caching, other than being another good reason to get outdoors and have fun with your GPS receiver.

 

Geocaching as a hobby was promoted by Garmin and the GPS makers to give people a reason to buy receivers, and it worked!

[+BilboB]

Hey evenfall, what makes 25 recoveries such an expert to flame others and their opinions. Here's my opinion...keep your stupid comments to yourself.

[Bill93]

I don't want to see a flame war here. There's really not much disagreement over facts and issues here, just a difference of priorities.

 

evenfall has seen lots more benchmarks than most of us in the course of his work as a surveyor, whether or not he logs them on Grouindspeak. He is a valuable contributor to some areas of knowledge on this forum. He comes across a little harsh once in a while, but it usually isn't anything worth getting upset about.

[River_Lime]

Indeed, one guy likes brunettes, another blondes. One drinks beer, another one drinks Scotch. Some like geocaching, others confluence hunting, and others benchmark hunting. I betcha there are some who like doing all three!

 

These differences are what makes this world interesting, and we have to respect each others' different interests.

 

Hey, it's all good, clean, healthy fun!

Edited May 28, 2005 by River_Lime

[evenfall]

No worries Bill, This is no flame war and it won't be.

 

I fear some of the folks here don't always get me, so let me help.

 

To Be Honest, Everyone comes across a bit harsh sometimes. It is the way print works. It is difficult to really know how anyone really is here. All People do have an emotional life... I know most of you by your writing style, but I don't really "Know" any of you. I do not however reduce you to a bunch of text in a Forum. I know there is a Person that I do not know a lot about behind all the writings here. I am Mindful of that no matter how much personality you choose to show us here. Most of you know me through a writing style that is like one of a teacher. Teaching is not what I do for my Money though I have trained a good many people and I am probably a lot more fun loving than many of you might guess. I have never referred to anyone in this forum as a person making a stupid comment. I even try to avoid insensitive innuendoes. I am however not afraid of being direct or meeting issues head on.

 

I can tell you, I am not afraid of the things I say, and I am also not afraid of defending my thoughts. I sign my name to all of it. I do my own thinking just fine, and I try to keep track of my ducks. I usually don't point it out when I feel someone has come across harshly towards me. Harsh is not a problem. you might try working in the construction trades a few years and then you'll know harsh! It used to be a lot harsher than it is lately too! I can tell you that the ones who still do that work are still there because they could handle it.

 

Bilbo, Let me spin this for you. My Comments were far from stupid.

 

Let's look at what I replied to:

 

Well, here's my take on it. I find it strange benchmarks are even given a category on the stats page. Geocaching is about cachers hiding things for other cachers to find with a GPS. Benchmarks, of course, are missing this hidden to be found by others aspect.

 

There are many other things (high points, degree confluence points, etc.) that can be found with a GPS, but have nothing to do with caching. Benchmarking, in my opinion, is similar to these. I don't think it should even be given a stats category and certainly shouldn’t count in the geocache find total.

 

Ok Bilbo, Say you own a restaurant and don't know me, I am not a good customer, as I am no customer of yours at all, and I come in, Bring my own eggs and start telling you that I don't think you cook eggs as good as my favorite restaurant down the street does. I go on to tell you that I would not want to compare your eggs with theirs because they are above your league. Then when you look into it, you find out that I don't know a thing about cooking eggs because I am a sewer plant operator. I am sure your thought might be Oh? Well who asked ya?

 

That is a different take on subterranean's Comment.

 

Now Bilbo, I know you are a Benchmark hunter. I know roughly how much experience you have and I know how your opinions in the past have shown what you care about. I cannot confirm you file any with NGS as you have no statistics showing that you have so far as is currently known. Since you do seem to care, and I know you do to some degree, I am interested in what you think about benchmark hunting. I have also been interested in helping you understand something when you didn't.

 

You may not convince me or you may, but I do listen to you because you have lived a little real life doing this stuff, and I am supportive of your efforts. So if you, Like many others who benchmark hunt were to say, and many have said, I wish the Benchmark hunting I did added a statistical value to my Geocaching. I can understand why you would feel this way because I know how much time this takes.

 

Geocaching is a full 75% easier than benchmark hunting. Benchmarks involve a lot more work and prep. There is more to understand, and it leads to knowing a lot of history and background info. Developing Critical Thinking Skills. Research, and a lot of it. The effort put into it on an individual level in learning alone is not all, there are tools to buy and physical methods, techniques and it goes on. Map reading, GPS Studies, Geodesy Surveying and it's many sub aspects... Or you can take your GPS default it to factory presets and run a Go To on a plastic Box or ammo can in a schoolyard...

 

Geocaching is easier, that is why more people do it, There is quick and easy rewards and payoff, even a treasure to find and keep or move along. Geocachers do benchmarks when they find they are easy or handy. the pay off is small in that it doesn't count to the easy to get total they have so why bother doing them at all. Nothing to take home either. There are people who do not find challenges fun, that is ok. You will notice that people who primarily geocache are not here looking to help find the hard ones. It is all good, and it is Fine with me. From what I read, Some others who hunt these feel fine with that too.

 

Benchmark hunters and Geocachers and those who consider themselves as both are all under the umbrella of Geocaching and Groundspeak. No one holds an elevated position over another.

 

As to my recoveries Bilbo, Yeah, I have bothered to list a few here. You see 25 recoveries but there are 57 entries. 25 were finds. 16 were not found. 13 were destroyed that I confirmed were destroyed in reality whether or not NGS policy will allow it, and 3 notes. Cross sectionally in my recoveries, there are a lot of different difficult situations a Benchmark Hunter will encounter as a mark duster. There are more unsuccessful finds than successful ones.

 

There are places I had to obtain access to restricted areas, Permission to be on private property, Stations that had been improperly recovered for years, which I needed access to NGS research to prove my theory in a three way screw up. Land Marks that had been altered but could be mistaken as not, One Disc station I suspect had been dug up and replaced as best as possible by a contractor. I could have easily filed a recovery on the Seattle Space Needle, I have driven past it thousands of times and been to the top more than a few. But why? Plenty of geocachers like recovering that for a mile away or before they even arrive in Seattle. Read their recovery logs. Where is the integrity in that?

 

Have I got more than that? Yup. Stations I have dealt with helping others in this forum? over 100 easy. Stations I have worked with on the NGS Level without sharing them with Geocaching, probably over 140 times ten. Professional filings from On the Job? A Bunch, I never kept track. It was never about me. I was doing that before there was a Geocaching, Before Selective Availability was turned off. I was working in this field before there was a NAD83 or a WGS84.

 

There are things I work on that do not pertain to benchmark hunting, and so it goes. Survey markers of any kind I have dealt with or set in my career, probably 100,000 Plus. I am guessing. I have days where I have set upwards of one hundred just doing construction staking... All Of those are positioned usually Via SPCS, and are tied into a local BM for Elevation Control. Each one has a piece of 4 foot lath with a lot of info written on it and It is accurate to the 100th of a foot. Graded by Construction workers to between a tenth and 2/100's of a foot. You know, It don't matter. As long as the next paycheck clears the Bank and I can live my life the way I want to, that is what matters.

 

You have 140 finds and I have been doing this for years but it don't matter. I hope you understand though I wouldn't expect you to understand. I never have made a big deal of my stats because it just isn't what I am about. I have forgotten places I have surveyed. I am supportive of the Benchmark hunters who do because it is dadgum hard work. It don't matter if they claim them to NGS or not. Most of the dedicated folk here are not just picking the low lying fruit. I don't personally care if they log with NGS or not, I respect them for the challenges they take on, even if they have taken issue with me in the past. They are growing while accomplishing good things that are highly difficult. It makes them think, and challenges them and I like that about all of them.

 

If I in some way helped you learn something that made a better benchmark hunter of you, or you read an answer to a question you never asked, and you came away learning something new that day, if it enabled you, and you had more fun and success in your hunting, then that was what I was hoping for. Good. I was hoping I could help it be more fun. There are some real quality people here doing a quality job, asking quality questions and having quality fun. If they are disappointed their accomplishments are not a part of all they have done under the Geocaching umbrella, I don't blame them.

 

Finding 52 Geocaches as subterranean has does not make him a Benchmark hunter, and so coming to the Benchmark hunting forum and saying to the benchmark hunters, I don't think what you guys do should statistically count, was... inept. Geocaching keeps track of what it's registered users find. Period. It tracks all the finds but the Benchmarks as I pointed out are not all Finds, yet each attempt has a result. In the overall scheme a good portion of the work results in no recognition at all, and the benchmarks are empirical where a virtual cache is not and yet a virtual counts against the grand total? HA! It is easier to be inclusive of all the things they host. Yet they do not. People want to have what they did counted, that seems easy enough. They log it all here so they want to see the numbers here. Many are bummed that there is not a cumulative total of what they found, Period. I don't see a problem with that. That was the premise of what WX guesser was lamenting. As a Result, Benchmark hunters have created ways of keeping their own statistics in ways they agreed amongst themselves seemed sufficient. They did not wait for Geocaching to do it, as it seemed as though it would not happen.

 

Speaking of Virtuals, if you would like to see what a classic flame war looks like you ought to go have a read on other forums about those! Them folks wade in and deep! I have said nothing inflammatory at all. I am not even wading into a he said she said scenario. I just met an opinion head on. I felt the statement was insensitive towards benchmark hunters coming from someone who never has, That IS my opinion. And I am entitled to free speech last time I checked. I say if you wanna say you don't understand why a Benchmark should count on the total, go recover a couple hard ones. After working HARD for four hours and not coming up with all of it, you will wish it counted because some days you find 15, and some days 1 beats you up, heck some will beat you up for two weeks and wind up not being countable! :-D

 

In essence, when you come down to considering the post subterranean made in context of what WX Guesser said about benchmark hunting finds, if you don't benchmark hunt at all, then don't expect benchmark hunters to respect what you think about a hobby they enjoy. I perceived it as rather insensitive to say. I never said he had no right to his opinion. I just said that I consider his opinion no more valuable than that of a Monday morning Quarterback or a back seat driver. My input was not a stupid comment at all. In fact, I am not a not a Monday Morning Quarterback. I do know what it takes to earn benchmark hunting statistics and I know how much the people here doing the hard work care. I stand with them.

 

I don't Geocache at all. I also do not post in their forums and advise them of what I think of their statistics. What would be the point? How many friends would that make me? It is tough enough making friends of some people here when I explain to them how the Survey world works. They are welcome to disagree with me or not understand, but that doesn't change the way the survey industry works. I don't take it too personally.

 

I have been asked on several occasions to handle a few questions in the USGS National Map Forum and have declined. I know a good bit about what the work involved is like, But I have not got the time to Join Up and do a Quad so I can speak to all the Nuance Difficulties. When people ask questions about the many programs that are used to collate the Data Here, (GSAK etc...) I don't answer the question. That is not my forte area. As to the people who are Geocaching, I think it is great that they are having fun, and really, that is great! I don't criticize their way of enjoying themselves. I just don't think anything I would have to say or add would carry much weight with the Geocachers. I have Zero practice running a WGS84 Go To on Tupperware or an ammo can. :-)

 

So Bilbo, If I have offended you, I figure you will recover. Get over me. There was no Flame here. And good luck to you in your upcoming deployment. I support the troops. I have been one too. All the best to you, You'll be in my thoughts.

 

River_Lime Got it right. We need to be respectful towards all of it, and that what what I said to begin with.

[+Subterranean]

That’s it, evenfall! Bike racks! After school! Be there or else everyone will know you’re chicken!

 

Seriously, I read your entire post. There are many things you wrote that I could appreciate and agree with, but you also wrote many things that simply aren’t true and, in some cases, display utter irony. Who cares?

 

The bottom-line, whether you agree with this or not, is that I said one thing and you heard another. Period. It happens, no big deal. Enjoy.

[evenfall]

Subterranean,

 

Having hunted not a single Benchmark, not spending a single second with these people in this Forum, I can understand your sense of Irony. You have no real world experience you can draw from with which to compare. It is hard to speak about something you haven't done, or share camaraderie with people you do not yet know.

 

Yours was just an uninformed opinion. It's ok, Happens all the time.

 

Good luck and have fun Geocaching, :-)

 

Rob

Edited May 28, 2005 by evenfall

[+BilboB]

Hey evenfall, thanks for not going down the rabbit hole I set up. It would not have been worth it. Speak your mind, and say what you want. At least you have the fortitude to understand what happened, instead of starting a flame war that could have really gotten out of hand.

[evenfall]

Bilbo,

 

NP,

 

Rob

[+Tidalflame]

I think one of the big problems is that it would be pretty unfair to international users if benchmarks counted towards total finds.

[+PFF]

This web site is oriented toward geocaching. Benchmarks are an interesting sideline, but they do not skew the total numbers.

 

I hope that those who enjoy geocaching will not begrudge the benchmark gang a small area on the server for logging those mysterious bronze disks--especially since benchmark recovery efforts have considerable value to the US Government and to professional surveyors throughout the United States.

 

Paul

Edited May 29, 2005 by PFF