Knives In Caches.

[+Renegade Knight]

Up the road is a cache I haven't found. It could probably hold a knife. But they are banned due to the wishes of land managers. The ban was the right thing to do since we need their lands for our activity. The biggest reason for the ban that I heard was a prison work gang coming across the cache and finding a knife.

 

We use prison labor where I work. Outside a rather cute inmate from the women’s correctional facility is running a chain saw chopping the living crap out of some branches. If she were so inclined she could take that chain saw, and the truck we gave her to use to load the wood and go wreak havoc.

 

I love irony. I know why they were banned and agree, but the reason it was ever brought up to begin with stands in stark contract to my working reality. Another Irony I can't have a knife larger than a pocket knife at work, but they will give me a machete to use if I request it, and the kitchen knives we use to cut birthday cake are a tad larger than that pocket knife.

[+The Leprechauns]

If at all possible, please post pictures.

[+CYBret]

What kind of cake?

[+CW Iams]

We use prison labor where I work. Outside a rather cute inmate from the women’s correctional facility is running a chain saw chopping the living crap out of some branches. If she were so inclined she could take that chain saw, and the truck we gave her to use to load the wood and go wreak havoc.

 

I love irony.

Thats too funny-- The kicker is she "rather cute"...

[Jeremy]

If she were so inclined she could take that chain saw, and the truck we gave her to use to load the wood and go wreak havoc.

I'm not exactly sure how she could smuggle the chainsaw in her pants and shiv her cellmate with it. The irony is lost on me. There seems to me to be a distinct difference between a possible (and obvious) threat and an unknown one.

[CoyoteRed]

I guess there are no more cavity searches when they return from work detail.

[+Docapi]

I don't know the reasonings for your workplace, so I can't comment on that, but I can give you my views on the Knives in caches from a Correctional Officers perspective.

 

Yes, outside work crew inmates will be given tools to do there jobs. However, we know what tools have been given out, and who they are given to.

 

The inmates that are selected to be on outside work crews are selected according to their behaviour history. If we feel that they are likely to become chain saw killers, then they don't get on the crew.

 

When they are done for the day, all the tools are collected and inventoried, down to the smallest detail. If something is missing from the inventory, nobody moves until the item is found.

 

A knife picked up from a cache would not be on the inventory, so we would not know they have it. They could easily get it into the prison at the end of the day. Inmates- and Female inmates in particular- have some er... "ingenious" ways of secreting contraband on their person.

 

Even if the inmate that finds it had no desire to use it- due to their history- that doesn't mean that their cellmate or another inmate down the hall won't.

 

To an inmate EVERYTHING is currency. Extra clothing, food, postage stamps, you name it. A knife would be worth a virtual fortune in a prison.

 

An inmate on a work crew finding a knife may have no desire to use it themselves, but knowing what it would be worth to another inmate would almost definitely smuggle it into the prison for sale.

 

The inmate that gets it would be more likely to use it- either on a fellow inmate, or on a staff member.

 

The point is, the chain saw we know about and are able to protect ourselves. A smugglerd in knife is bad juju.

 

Coyote Red: Nope, no cavity searches. They are only used if there is very strong evidence of contraband, and have to be approved by the warden. We might have a cavity search every few months, if that.

Edited May 25, 2005 by Docapi

[CoyoteRed]

Coyote Red: Nope, no cavity searches.

That probably blows RK's mental imagery.

[+sbell111]

I stand against 'Kives' and chain saws in caches.

[+briansnat]

The biggest reason for the ban that I heard was a prison work gang coming across the cache and finding a knife.

 

I thought it more to do with some parks considering them to be "weapons".

 

The inmates that are selected to be on outside work crews are selected according to their behaviour history. If we feel that they are likely to become chain saw killers, then they don't get on the crew.

 

At least in my state they are non violent offenders, with good prison records and usually close to release. That or they are working off DWI, drug related or other relatively minor offenses and not actually inmates.

 

A knife picked up from a cache would not be on the inventory, so we would not know they have it.

 

Nor would shards of broken glass be, which are far, far more likely that they will get their hands on. The inmate work crew issue is really a silly one. What are the chances of an inmate (A) finding a cache, ( B ) that has a knife in it and then ( C ) risking their hard worked for "good behavior" status by taking it. If someone knows of one instance of an inmate picking up a knife in a geocache and sneaking it into a prison, I stand corrected.

Edited May 25, 2005 by briansnat

[+AtoZ]

In New Zeland you can not have a pocket knife with a blade longer then 3.5 inches. The primary weapon of choice for hold ups in England is a Claw Hammer, this results in some pretty interesting deterants. I watched a show about folks cooking in a Max Security prison and they checked in out out there knives plus the knives had a 3 foot cable that was fastened to the work surface when an inmate was using the knife. I know some folks just don't have a concept of reality. What about an inmate pucking up a 6 inche nail or...

cheers

 

but can you cut cake with a chainsaw???????

[+soreyes]

The biggest reason for the ban that I heard was a prison work gang coming across the cache and finding a knife.

Since we are talking 'irony',

 

Wouldn't you rather be stabbed by a pocket knife than a broken off shard of mcdonalds toy!

[+sbell111]

... What are the chances of an inmate (A) finding a cache, ( B ) that has a knife in it and then ( C ) risking their hard worked for "good behavior" status by taking it. If someone knows of one instance of an inmate picking up a knife in a geocache and sneaking it into a prison, I stand corrected.

Didn't the guideline change come about because of an incident in Georgia? Didn't Georgia ban all caches in state parks for a while because of the issue of work crews?

[+The Leprechauns]

... What are the chances of an inmate (A) finding a cache,  ( B ) that has a knife in it and then ( C ) risking their hard worked for "good behavior" status by taking it.    If someone knows of one instance of an inmate picking up a knife in a geocache and sneaking it into a prison, I stand corrected.

Didn't the guideline change come about because of an incident in Georgia? Didn't Georgia ban all caches in state parks for a while because of the issue of work crews?

Probably every area of the country has a different prominent "knife incident" that local cachers can point to. Around here, it's the Licking County park system -- one county east of Columbus, Ohio. Caches in that park system are banned because (among other reasons) there was a pen knife placed in a geocache. See this forum thread. My understanding is that it was an accumulation of such concerns... from parks and law enforcement all over the place... that led to the "no knives in caches" rule. If you're answering the phone and e-mails at Groundspeak, it helps to have that rule to point to when a complaint is received.

[+Docapi]

 

The inmates that are selected to be on outside work crews are selected according to their behaviour history. If we feel that they are likely to become chain saw killers, then they don't get on the crew.

 

At least in my state they are non violent offenders, with good prison records and usually close to release. That or they are working off DWI, drug related or other relatively minor offenses and not actually inmates.

 

A knife picked up from a cache would not be on the inventory, so we would not know they have it.

 

Nor would shards of broken glass be, which are far, far more likely that they will get their hands on. The inmate work crew issue is really a silly one. What are the chances of an inmate (A) finding a cache, ( B ) that has a knife in it and then ( C ) risking their hard worked for "good behavior" status by taking it. If someone knows of one instance of an inmate picking up a knife in a geocache and sneaking it into a prison, I stand corrected.

Shards of glass, however dangerous they may be we can do nothing about.

 

Leaving weapons in caches we can.

 

A broken shard of glass is also a lot tougher to "secrete" in a hiding place on their body that cannot be seen in the end of shift strip search.

 

A. Pretty good, considering that a large number of the work crews are put to work in county and state forest and parks areas, piching up trash, clearing trails, etc. The same type of places that geocachers are drant to to place caches.

 

B. Pretty slim, the way the rules are now. If the rules were changed to allow knives, howerver, I I would have to think that those $2 folding knives might become pretty popular.

 

C. About the same as the odds of them breaking the law and losing their freedom in the first place. (they are criminals- remember?)

[+soreyes]

I once found a knife in a cache and I considered myself Lucky and Helpful all at once. I got a free knife and I helped out the geocaching community by removing the knife. I see the same sort of notes on logs to my caches all the time.

Edited May 25, 2005 by soreyes

[+Renegade Knight]

If she were so inclined she could take that chain saw, and the truck we gave her to use to load the wood and go wreak havoc.

I'm not exactly sure how she could smuggle the chainsaw in her pants and shiv her cellmate with it. The irony is lost on me. There seems to me to be a distinct difference between a possible (and obvious) threat and an unknown one.

I didn't think of that angle, but then a prisoner can find all sorts of things along side the road when on clean up duty that they can smuggle in. The typical work gang or prisoner allowed to work in the community is not a violent offender. The ones we work with are serving time for writing bad checks and other white collar crimes. The warnings we recieve have to do with not buying them a soda, or making calls for them. I can't say that I've ever been told anything about physical safety concerns.

[+DaveA]

The warnings we recieve have to do with not buying them a soda, or making calls for them.

what is the risk in buying them a soda?

[+Divine]

The inmate work crew issue is really a silly one.

I agree. Especially when it's not an issue at all in some parts of the world, that still have to adopt guidelines tailored for some areas thousands of kilometers away.

[+AtoZ]

The warnings we recieve have to do with not buying them a soda, or making calls for them.

what is the risk in buying them a soda?

They are in PRISION so no pleasentries.

Or maybe they will take the can rip off the pull tab and hold you hostage. I think the do not want you socializing with the cons.

cheers

[+Yamahammer]

What kind of cake?

A cake with a file in it???

 

[+sbell111]

The warnings we recieve have to do with not buying them a soda, or making calls for them.

what is the risk in buying them a soda?

Now I know why cans don't have pull tabs anymore.

[+Prime Suspect]

Don't underestimate their ingenuity. A few prisoner-made weapons:

 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2005 by Prime Suspect

[+DAS&SAS]

Why would you want to put a knive in a cache anyway?

[+soreyes]

Why would you want to put a knive in a cache anyway?

...so that the next finder can cut the cake I left in the cache!

[+sbell111]

Don't underestimate their ingunity. A few prisoner-made weapons:...

Jinkies! Welcome to shivs are us!

[+Ambrosia]

I was also under the impression that we aren't supposed to put in knives because of the chance that a youth might find it. That's why when it was first hashed out, people said that in town it was a definate no-no, but that maybe out in the middle of nowhere, on a long hike, it might be better.

[+Renegade Knight]

...what is the risk in buying them a soda?

It's against the rules. If they are caught they will be diciplined (can't spell that). I'm not sure if it's the Soda itself or the gift in general though I suspect it's the latter.

[+cachew nut]

This is almost as silly as the TSA taking a pilot's nail clippers away, when everyone knows there is an axe in the cockpit.

[+Crusso]

I happen to work for the TSA and we don't take nail clippers away.

[+briansnat]

Why would you want to put a knive in a cache anyway?

When I first started this, I thought pocket knives - particularly Swiss army knives - were great swag. They are useful tools, not weapons. I've carried one since I was 10 years old. Yes, I carried it to SCHOOL (the horror!).

 

Early on I placed some in caches and more after getting a good deal on some nice SAKs. Apparently the people who found them thought they were great items too, because they were very appreciative.

 

Kinves were generally considered acceptable by the geocaching community. Of course once the bureacrats got wind of geocaching things changed. The idea of a cache filled with "weapons" in their park bothered them. Never mind that pocket knives are not legally considered weapons in most (if not all) states. But of course these are bureaucrats. These are the same narrow minded kind of people who expell children from school because they used a butter knife to cut a birthday cake, or pointed a finger at a classmate and said "bang, bang".

 

Anyway, that was the end of pocket knives in caches.

 

So in answer to your question - why would you want to put a knive (sic) in a cache anyway? Because they are great items to get and give. I think many (if not most) people would rather find a Victorinox Climber than a broken McToy any day. Unfortunatley the climate in this country won't allow it anymore.

Edited May 26, 2005 by briansnat

[+tabulator32]

Don't underestimate their ingunity. A few prisoner-made weapons:

 

Hi.

 

I'm kinda blind.

 

Lower left-hand corner of the last picture...

 

Is that a gun? or just made to look like a gun? Or is that just a creative shiv?

 

 

Edit: I've heard of inmates making zip guns and such and just wondered how frequent an occurence THAT was.

Edited May 26, 2005 by tabulator32

[+tabulator32]

What are the chances of an inmate (A) finding a cache, ( B ) that has a knife in it and then ( C ) risking their hard worked for "good behavior" status by taking it.

In very simplistic terms, a guard's potential perspective may be...

 

"I have a job where I keep an eye on people who really don't want to be here and they have access to this field where there might be a box with a weapon or something with which they may fashion a weapon. Hmm."

 

Who cares what the chances are? Why risk it if?

 

There are plenty of other places to put a cache without worrying about your trowel TB being shown on the evening news.

 

[+Kit Fox]

A broken shard of glass is also a lot tougher to "secrete" in a hiding place on their body that cannot be seen in the end of shift strip search.

 

You would be surprised what inmates can put up their rectum. All it takes is some sort of fabric to wrap around the sharp edge. inmates have been keestering weapons since prisons/jails first opened.

 

I run a workcrew, and know firsthand the security procedures for checking out and checking in tools. It takes probable cause to do any strip searches where I work also.

 

Is that a gun? or just made to look like a gun?

Most likely made out of soap and shoe polish.

[+briansnat]

n very simplistic terms, a guard's potential perspective may be...

 

"I have a job where I keep an eye on people who really don't want to be here and they have access to this field where there might be a box with a weapon or something with which they may fashion a weapon. Hmm."

 

There are hundreds, if not thousands of things that commonly are found in parks and roadsides that can be fashioned into weapons. Its one of the reasons they only allow non violent, well behaved prisoners on these "gangs".

 

Sheesh, we've gone from knives to now worrying about the kinds of travelbugs we have. Heck a TB tag can easily be made into a weapon. Do we now have to consider all possibilities, no matter how remote, before we place a cache or select items to put inside? Hmmmm, what if an inmate were to take my CITO bag and use it to suffocate someone.

[+Docapi]

True, there is definitely the potential for an inmate to find other things that could be made into weapons.

 

I guess that that would make it OK for us to leave weapons in caches then, if we follow that logic.

 

As long as we are at it, we should start leaving guns there, too. Why not? They might find something that could be used as a weapon anyways.

 

We should probably fight to get rid of DWI laws as well. People still drink and drive.

 

Underage drinking? Why bother- kids can get booze other places.

 

Illegal drugs? What is the point- anybody can find some drugs if they want to.

 

Jees, are we so hard up for cache swag that we feel we have to put things in caches that have the potential to kill somebody?

 

Yes, they could find other things that could be used as weapons. There is nothing anybody can do about that. That is the risk that I take as a Correctional officer.

 

Knives in caches, however, we CAN do something about, and I am offended that you have so little concern for my safety that you are willing to place weapons in a place where they could potentially be used on me.

 

My job is dangerous enough without arming the inmates.

 

There are so many other things that can be used as swag. Are you really so self-centered that yuou are willing to take the chance of putting a weapon in an inmates hands, just because you think that knives would be "cool swag"?

[uber_bike_geek]

Now what was that about the second amendment... The right to arm bears

 

To be honest, I think that knives would be ok in **SOME** caches (Owl's Head comes to mind - after a difficult 9 mile hike, I think that most people that would use the knife for a weapon probably wouldn't make it to the cache - and those who do make it to the cache will probably like the reward from the hike... Just my $0.02 (USD)

 

Oh, BTW, Briansnat, I'd really like to find the Climber that I lost about 5 years ago... I ended up getting another one about a month after I lost the first one, and I still have it My dad still has (and uses) his official BSA pocketknife that he got 40-something years ago...

 

Happy Caching

Jeff

[+briansnat]

Jees, are we so hard up for cache swag that we feel we have to put things in caches that have the potential to kill somebody?

 

Ummm, a lot of things we put in caches have the POTENTIAL to kill somebody. Children choke on little toys all the time, a pencil stuck in the right place can be deadly. Heck you can even bludgeon someone to death with an ammo box.

[+Docapi]

Would you reather be attacked with a Knife, or a McToy?

 

Using that logic, then Guns, dynamite and hand grenades should be allowed as well.

Edited May 26, 2005 by Docapi

[+Joe Smith]

Heck you can even bludgeon someone to death with an ammo box.

And it only takes an inch of water in a gladware to drown someone. So we need to ban people bringing water near cache sites, It's a deadly combo.

 

 

For the safety of all who use our parks

 

 

Joe Smith

[+Renegade Knight]

Would you reather be attacked with a Knife, or a McToy?...

To answer your question I'd rather be shot. I'm more likely to survive it than the repeated stabbings with a broken McToy. But this topic really wasn't about how would you like to be attacked by another human being bent on hurting you (which is the key ingrediant whatever the tool). It's about the irony of watching a Prisoner work with a Chain saw (5' from a former cache in another bit of irony) and a truck showing that the concern for them finding a knife a bit misplaced.

 

In general anything not specificly prohibited to be in a childrens posession should be allowed. Let the law decide what goes into a cache. That covers everthing but knives which were banned for reasons of land manager preference.

[+Docapi]

But this topic really wasn't about how would you like to be attacked by another human being bent on hurting you (which is the key ingrediant whatever the tool).

You are right. The discussion has strayed somewhat from your origional topic. I apologise for that.

 

It's about the irony of watching a Prisoner work with a Chain saw  and a truck showing that the concern for them finding a knife a bit misplaced.

 

In my first post, I was trying to point ouit that there is a difference between a tool that is given to an inmate that we know about and are able to account for at all times, and a knife that we don't know about.

 

(5' from a former cache in another bit of irony)

 

Kinda kills that whole "what are the odds of a prisoner finding a cache" theory, doesn't it?

Edited May 26, 2005 by Docapi

[+StarBrand]

What's ironic (too me anyway) is that the 2 hunting type knives I have owned in my life were both found sitting out on the forest floor. 1 burnt and sticking out of a half burned log in a 10 year old burn area and another just laying there showing a couple years of weathering. I have also stumbled across pocket knives at rest areas and local parks. Seems to me that the odds of a prisoner finding something on the ground are much better than stumbling across a cache.

 

Having said that - I actually agree with the ban. Lots of kids cache and many parents don't want thier kids to have knives. Just that simple to me.

[+briansnat]

Kinda kills that whole "what are the odds of a prisoner finding a cache" theory, doesn't it?

 

With many thousands of caches out there I've yet to learn of one incident of an inmate finding a knife in a cache and sneaking it back into a prison. Not one despite over 200,000 caches and 5 years of this sport.

 

Can it happen? Sure. And I can get struck by lightning standing over a cache and maybe the Pope will convert to Islam.

[+Docapi]

If it did happen, how would you have heard about it?

 

First of all, Geocaching just isn't that well known. Most prison officials wouldn't know about geocaching, and it would not be the first thing they would think of if they found a knife.

 

Second, If we find a knife, we don't know where it came from.

 

Third, we don't make a public announcement when we find a weapon.

 

If it has happened, it is pretty unlikely that we (geocachers) would know about it.

 

Who cares what the odds are? It COULD happpen. Are you really willing to take a chance on somebody's spouse or parent getting hurt or killed just because you think a knife would be a neato swag item?

 

Sure, I could get struck by lightning standing over a cache. But I am not about to stand over the cache in a thunderstorm holding a metal rod, either.

 

Even if I did, that would be the chance I take with MY safety, not somebody else's.

 

As I see it the arguments on each side run something like this:

 

Con:

 

A work crew inmate could get it and either use it themselves or give it to another inmate to hurt somebody with.

 

A child could get hold of it and possibly hurt themselves or somebody else.

 

Pro:

 

Knives are really cool swag items.

 

I am sorry, but to me the "cool" factor just isn't enough to justify the chance of somebody getting hurt, however small the odds may be.

[+Renegade Knight]

...Seems to me that the odds of a prisoner finding something on the ground are much better than stumbling across a cache....

Funny you mention that. I once watched a truck go off the road and flip on it's roof before sliding to a stop. As I was walking up I found a knife that had been rusting on the road for some time. I stuck it in my back pocket and as I got close a cute (I swear they are always cute) girl crawls out the back window looks at me and says "I hate when that happens, it's the second time this week."

 

Her boyfriend took a little more time getting out but proceeded to cuss up a storm when he looked at his truck. They didn't want help so I went fishing with my new rusted knife.

[+Docapi]

"I hate when that happens, it's the second time this week."

 

ROFL!!!

[+tabulator32]

Docapi.

 

I agree with banning weapons in caches (and caches within a stone's throw of prisons) for so many reasons including the one you stated.

 

I am not anti-gun or anti-knife. I AM against leaving them around for criminals to happen upon, regardless of how "remote" the possibility.

 

I once read a news story about a priest who was sent to read rights to an inmate and the priest was told to keep his hands away from the cell.

 

The inmate asked the padre to let him feel his hands and pray with him. The moment he did, the inmate pulled out a wire cord and severed the priests hands from his arms in about thirty seconds.

 

I would keep knives away from this guy if at all possible.

[+briansnat]

I agree with banning weapons in caches 

You are assuming a pocket knife is a weapon. It is a tool and is not legally considered to be a weapon in any state.

 

The inmate asked the padre to let him feel his hands and pray with him. The moment he did, the inmate pulled out a wire cord and severed the priests hands from his arms in about thirty seconds.

 

Whoh, I didn' t think of that one. Lets ban TBs with those long chains. They can be used by inmates as a garrote. Do you want the blood of a prison guard on your hands becaue you insisted on putting a silly travel bug in a cache?

 

Laser pointers

Cons: can be pointed into the eyes of jet pilots causing blindness, plane crash and massive loss of life

Pros: really cool swag item

 

McToys

Cons: Choking hazard for young children

Pros: really cool swag items

 

Plastic CITO bags

Cons: suffocation hazard for young children

Pros: really cool swag items

 

Baseball cards

Cons: paper cuts can be an entry place for streptococci and other pathogens resulting in serious illness and death

Pros: really cool swag items

 

Insect repellent

Cons: If ingested can cause neurological problems in children

Pros: really cool swag item

 

Matchbox cars

Cons: If stepped on can cause a fall and serious head injuries and death

Pros: really cool swag item

 

Pencils

Cons: If jabbed deep into an eye socket can cause blindness, brain injury and death

Pros: useful for signing logs

 

Coins

Cons: choking hazard for small children. Carrier of potentially fatal bacteria and viruses

Pros: really cool swag item

 

Picture frame

Cons: Inmates may find and use glass to slit throat of prison guards

Pros: cool swag item

 

Bungee cords

Cons: can be used by inmates as a garrote to strangle prison guards. Sudden recoil can result in serious eye injury or blindness

Pros: Really cool trade item

[+sbell111]

So, what have we learned from this thread?

 

Prisoners have access to caches.

 

Even non-violent prisoners might want to smuggle a knife into a prison.

 

Sadi knife might fall into the hands of a more-violent prisoner.

 

The guidelines very clearly state that knives are a no-no.

 

It is ironic to see prisoners with chain saws, weedwackers, axes, etc. I've thought this before, but put it out of me head the second they were out of my view.

 

Many things are dnagerous if used in a way contrary to their general usage.