4x4van Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 I have no doubt that I will be blasted by some for the following, but I guess I'm entitled to my opinion, as are others. So here's mine: As has already been stated, there are many, many ways to contribute to this sport/hobby/obsession/disease . Paying $3 a month is only one of them. The only somewhat legitimate reason for an MOC in my opinion is if there is a local maggot/pirate problem. All the other reasons so often stated for them are better addressed in other ways, without excluding a huge percentage of cachers that contribute greatly to the sport in numerous other ways. In my area, MOCs have started popping up recently, and there really has never been much of a cache maggot/pirate problem in this area (that I know of, anyway). Does this make me want to become a PM? No, in fact it does just the opposite. The extra features (PQs and the like) would be nice, but untill MOCs are banned, I probably will continue to put off joining up. I'll contribute in other, more tangible ways that doesn't judge people based on something that has nothing to do with the sport. I've asked the following question a number of times (when the issue of MOCs comes up), but have yet to get a single answer for some reason : I'd like to ask those of you who are placing MOCs for any reason other than cache maggots/pirates... Since you have deemed non-PM cachers not worthy of seeking your caches, are you also willing to put your money where your mouth is and not seek caches placed by non-PM cachers? What about the ones you've already found that were placed by us lowly non-PMs? Will you delete them from your "found" list? If not, then placing MOCs seems to be the ultimate in hypocrisy. Quote Link to comment
+Kit Fox Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 (edited) I've asked the following question a number of times (when the issue of MOCs comes up), but have yet to get a single answer for some reason : I'd like to ask those of you who are placing MOCs for any reason other than cache maggots/pirates... Since you have deemed non-PM cachers not worthy of seeking your caches, are you also willing to put your money where your mouth is and not seek caches placed by non-PM cachers? What about the ones you've already found that were placed by us lowly non-PMs? Will you delete them from your "found" list? If not, then placing MOCs seems to be the ultimate in hypocrisy. That is your a**umption that those of us who place MO caches do it to weed out the lowly non paying members as you refer to them. I started two of my caches as MO for two distinct reasons. One cache was fragile, so I thought that making it a MO cache would reduce the damage to the cache and the general area, by limiting the number of people who could find it. This idea backfired, and the cache area and cache still got trashed. I ended up archiving the cache after making it available to all cachers, for a few months. My second cache that I started as a MO caches was becuse of the trade items that I placed in it. They were valuable enough that I wanted to share them (before they got degraded) with those of us who believe that paying $3.00 per month is the right thing to do. I wanted to give back to paying members first. Once the nicer items were taken (FTF prize etc) I made the cache available to everyone. Will I delete my finds from caches that are non MO caches? The answer is no. I payed for the right to download PQs, that listed these caches, therefore i'm entitled to find them. I'm of the opinion that those cachers who refuse to dole out a measly "three bucks" are also the same type of people who think it's their right to illegally download copyrighted music. I still stand by the fact that cachers who cache seriously, (over 100 finds), and refuse to become premium members are like mistletoe on trees. On top of paying $30.00 per year, I also purchase items from the Groundspeak store. Edited May 27, 2005 by Kit Fox Quote Link to comment
+sbell111 Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 ... Sbell - not sure what area of middle tennessee you're in, but here, half of my first page of unfound caches is members only. 38 caches out of 184 if we go out ten miles (counting caches I've found) I live in Franklin, so I have fewer than you do within ten miles. I think you live over by the lake, which would tend to draw more quality MOCs, in my opinion. If you live where I think you do, I show that there are around 360 caches within ten miles of you. Using your MOC count of 38 (and my total cache count based on my idea of where you live which might be wrong, but the total number of MOCs matched), you have a slightly higher percentage of MOCs than I do, 10.5% v 8.5%. This is still not a huge amount, in my opinion, especially in our area. Quote Link to comment
+sbell111 Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 ...I'm of the opinion that those cachers who refuse to dole out a measly "three bucks" are also the same type of people who think it's their right to illegally download copyrighted music. ... Wow. Hang on tight, I feel a long meandering editorial coming on. Let me start by saying that any premium member has the right to create MOCs for whatever reason he/she wants. If Joe wanted to make all of his caches MOC, I would support his right. I, personally, wouldn't even notice, since I am a charter member. I believe that the numbers show that MOCs are not a hardship on the caching community. By my math, if all MOCs in my area were unavailable to me, I would still have 125 caches to look for. I find myself remembering way back when I got hooked on this game. I think there was three caches within 30 miles of me; one within ten. Which brings me back to KF's post. I think you have it backwards. I certainly believe that those that don't pay for music wouldn't become a PM. However, I don't think the logic holds up in reverse. When Charter Memberships first came out, there really wasn't many perks. Those that paid really were doing it to support Jeremy and his site. In my opinion, that's not necessarily true anymore. I bet that many people don't look at it as whether they should support the site. It has become a financial decision. What are the benefits of becoming a PM? Are the benefits worth the payment to the individual? There is nothing wrong with looking at it this way. I bet that those that don't participate regularly in the forums are more likely to treat it as a pure financial decision simply because they don't have the connection to the site that you and I have. Quote Link to comment
4x4van Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 (edited) That is your a**umption that those of us who place MO caches do it to weed out the lowly non paying members as you refer to them. I started two of my caches as MO for two distinct reasons. One cache was fragile, so I thought that making it a MO cache would reduce the damage to the cache and the general area, by limiting the number of people who could find it. This idea backfired, and the cache area and cache still got trashed. I ended up archiving the cache after making it available to all cachers, for a few months. My second cache that I started as a MO caches was becuse of the trade items that I placed in it. They were valuable enough that I wanted to share them (before they got degraded) with those of us who believe that paying $3.00 per month is the right thing to do. I wanted to give back to paying members first. Once the nicer items were taken (FTF prize etc) I made the cache available to everyone. Cute...resorting to "stars" to call me names. In any case, I think you somewhat prove my point. The first of your MOC caches you refer to didn't accomplish what you wanted it to. A better way to limit the number of cache visitors would be to find a different place; i.e. a tougher find, tougher hike, tougher puzzle, etc. Otherwise, maybe it wasn't such a great spot for a cache in the first place? The second one you refer to also demonstrates my point. You say you wanted to "give back to paying members". Why only them? Because they are better than non-paying members? Based on what, their decision to send $3 to this site? That's a pretty flimsy basis for judging the quality or character of a person. For all you know, a particular non-PM cacher may very well be nearly a "Mother Theresa" in his area, volunteering and donating to a multitude of great causes, while a particular PM may very well be a serial rapist or a bank robber. Yet based on your yardstick, ??? Judging people you've never met based on nothing but $3 seems a bit short-sighted to me. Will I delete my finds from caches that are non MO caches? The answer is no. I payed for the right to download PQs, that listed these caches, therefore i'm entitled to find them. Paying for PQs have nothing to do with your right to find them. Anyone who logs on to the site can seek caches. It just seems logical to me that if a you deem a cache worthy of seeking and logging, then you should extend that same invitation to it's hider to seek your own caches. I'm of the opinion that those cachers who refuse to dole out a measly "three bucks" are also the same type of people who think it's their right to illegally download copyrighted music. I don't "illegally download" copyrighted music, nor do I break other laws. But again, you paint me with that broad brush because you look down on me and those of us who have decided, for whatever personal reason, not to pay to find your "special" caches. Yet you have no problem finding and logging caches placed by those same people you won't allow to seek yours. Hypocritical? I think so. I still stand by the fact that cachers who cache seriously, (over 100 finds), and refuse to become premium members are like mistletoe on trees. That may be your opinion, but "fact"? If all of the non-PM cachers suddenly took their caches and went home, there wouldn't be much point in this website to even exist, so I'm of the opinion that we "give back" to the sport much more than you want to give us credit for. Look, don't get me wrong; you have every right to place MOCs, and it's your decision whether or not to do so, for whatever reason you decide. And believe it or not, I support your right to do that since TPTB have decided to make the option available. But I also believe that MOCs are unnecessarily divisive and should rarely be used, and for only extreme situations, not simply to "reward" certain people (and in effect "punish" other people) based on a perception of that person's character or integrity, or lack thereof. Especially if that perception is based on nothing more than $3. There are much more relevant qualities to judge someone by, IMO. Edited May 27, 2005 by 4x4van Quote Link to comment
+DAS&SAS Posted May 27, 2005 Author Share Posted May 27, 2005 You say you wanted to "give back to paying members". Why only them? Question asked Based on what, their decision to send $3 to this site? and answered in your own post. To "give back to paying members" is in fact giving to a member that has paid - thus the reason for the keyword here: "paying" Notice that it doesn't say, "give to members that are nearly a Mother Theresa". Allow me to break this down for you - members that are nearly a Mother Theresa but are not paying members don't qualify for this "giving back session." So to be completely clear, the yardstick used here only measures $3 at a time, not rapists vs Nun. to "reward" certain people or "punish" other people I take issue with your definition for for punish. Punish is defined as: impose a penalty on To ADD MOCs to the site does not impose a penalty. If all caches were converted to MOCs, you would have a case here, but that isn't my suggestion. I suggested that we ADD MOCs near free caches to incourage non-PM to join the site. Why would I want to do that, you might ask. Lemme explain: I never knew about pocket queries before I became a member (they are worth the $3!). I never knew about many of the features PMs get until I became one. Non-PMs are missing out and may not know it. If I can encourage non-PMs to become PMs then a few things happen - 1. the site gets more funding to keep these servers going 2. non-PMs gain access to all the neat features they might not even know exist Everybody wins here - except you, b/c you are sitting at home, mad that I made my caches MOCs. Quote Link to comment
+Team GPSaxophone Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 Everybody wins here - except you, b/c you are sitting at home, mad that I made my caches MOCs. Quote Link to comment
+as77 Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 I'm a PM but I don't like MOCs and when I see that someone makes a cache MO for no good reason, I choose to boycott that cache: I don't go hunt for it. Quote Link to comment
+DAS&SAS Posted May 27, 2005 Author Share Posted May 27, 2005 when I see that someone makes a cache MO for no good reason, I choose to boycott that cache: I don't go hunt for it. I thought getting non-PMs to become PMs was a good reason... You know - money for the site, enjoyment of PM features for more people... etc... Question: Was there a reason you felt we needed clarification on what boycott means? boycott, don't go... right we got it the first time... Quote Link to comment
4x4van Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 (edited) To ADD MOCs to the site does not impose a penalty. If all caches were converted to MOCs, you would have a case here, but that isn't my suggestion. I suggested that we ADD MOCs near free caches to incourage non-PM to join the site. Why would I want to do that, you might ask. Lemme explain: I never knew about pocket queries before I became a member (they are worth the $3!). I never knew about many of the features PMs get until I became one. Non-PMs are missing out and may not know it. If I can encourage non-PMs to become PMs then a few things happen - 1. the site gets more funding to keep these servers going 2. non-PMs gain access to all the neat features they might not even know exist Everybody wins here - except you, b/c you are sitting at home, mad that I made my caches MOCs. Fair enough. I just think that basing whether or not a person is "deserving" enough to seek a cache based on nothing more than whether they choose to contribute in one certain way, while ignoring the other ways to contribute, is in fact punitive, whether it's meant to be or not. And I agree that the benefits available to Premium members are well worth the $3. But it's real easy to follow the link on the home page to see what benefits are there for Premium membership, so I think that most non-PMs know exactly what features they are missing out on, and have made the conscious decision that those added features are not something they want or need. My point was not to start a war about MOCs (that's been hashed out many times on these forums), but simply to offer my opinion re. your idea. While more MOCs may very well increase paying membership as you want, they may also alienate others from becoming PMs. Whether the net result is positive or negative is debatable. Unfortunately, it is a highly divisive subject, regardless of which side you are on. And BTW, don't worry about me. I'm would not be sitting at home mad that you made your caches MOC. I'd be out there caching, or placing caches for all cachers, or doing any one of the numerous other activities that take up much more of my time than caching does. Edited May 27, 2005 by 4x4van Quote Link to comment
+sbell111 Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 I'm a PM but I don't like MOCs and when I see that someone makes a cache MO for no good reason, I choose to boycott that cache: I don't go hunt for it. Interesting. I never even notice whether a cache is a MOC. Quote Link to comment
+DAS&SAS Posted May 27, 2005 Author Share Posted May 27, 2005 And BTW, I'm would not be sitting at home ... I'd be out there caching I assumed you would - and you just might find one of mine in the process (I accutally only have one currently and it is an MOC, but i purchased my ammo boxes and micro containers this week and will be hding many more soon) - I really don't want to see a giant influx for MOC's, only a few well placed ones in parks where there are already caches for everyone. Non-PMs that don't want to become PMs might just pass them by, but I was just thinking that there would be others like me - I would be bugged by the fact the there was a cache 'right here somewhere' that I couldn't get without being a PM - which is why I became a PM to begin with. Quote Link to comment
+as77 Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 when I see that someone makes a cache MO for no good reason, I choose to boycott that cache: I don't go hunt for it. I thought getting non-PMs to become PMs was a good reason... You know - money for the site, enjoyment of PM features for more people... etc... Frankly, to make a cache MO for that reason reminds me of cheap marketing tricks used by pushy salesmen. Sign up today and we'll include 10 more caches for you to find as a special thank-you gift to our valued customers. What's next, an MLM scheme to recruit more PMs? Quote Link to comment
+as77 Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 Interesting. I never even notice whether a cache is a MOC. Yes, that is actually a problem. I need to find out how to filter out MOCs in GSAK. There must be a way to do that. Quote Link to comment
4x4van Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 Non-PMs that don't want to become PMs might just pass them by, but I was just thinking that there would be others like me - I would be bugged by the fact the there was a cache 'right here somewhere' that I couldn't get without being a PM - which is why I became a PM to begin with. There may be, just as there may be others like me, that dislike the whole idea of "exclusive" caches being listed on this site. When I see a MOC in my area, it does bug me that there is a cache there that I can't log, but that makes me even less inclined to become a PM, since it is in effect dividing cachers into 2 different groups, rather welcoming everyone, regardless as to how they decide to contribute. In any case, I hope there are no hard feelings. All cachers (PM and non-PM alike) have more in common than these forums sometimes make it appear. Quote Link to comment
Jeremy Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 I need to find out how to filter out MOCs in GSAK. There must be a way to do that. Hold down CTRL-ALT-DELETE at the same time. Quote Link to comment
+as77 Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 I need to find out how to filter out MOCs in GSAK. There must be a way to do that. Hold down CTRL-ALT-DELETE at the same time. Thanks for the helpful tip, I knew your expertise could always be counted on. I just checked, looks like there is no attribute in the gpx file that would indicate whether a cache is MO. This would be a nice addition when the other attributes are added. Quote Link to comment
+sbell111 Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 I need to find out how to filter out MOCs in GSAK. There must be a way to do that. Hold down CTRL-ALT-DELETE at the same time. Well, it takes snarky to know snarky. as77 - Is this really that big of a deal with you? You can always find them but not log them out of protest. Quote Link to comment
+El Diablo Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 (edited) Interesting. I never even notice whether a cache is a MOC. Yes, that is actually a problem. I need to find out how to filter out MOCs in GSAK. There must be a way to do that. The easiest thing to do is become a member. It's only $30.00 per year. Do you know of any where else you could go and have this much fun for $30.00? With that being said...Jeremy...that wasn't a very nice response. El Diablo Edited May 27, 2005 by El Diablo Quote Link to comment
+sbell111 Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 He said that he was a member. He's just boycotting MOCs until they are placed for reasons that he approves of. Quote Link to comment
+as77 Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 as77 - Is this really that big of a deal with you? You can always find them but not log them out of protest. Sure, no big deal. That way I get to find the cache and I can still choose not to log it. (BTW in the PQ generator there is an option to only include member-only caches. If I use that and update my regular database with it, I can distinguish the MOCs by the update time.) Quote Link to comment
+El Diablo Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 He said that he was a member. He's just boycotting MOCs until they are placed for reasons that he approves of. Well in that case...the Alt-Ctrl-Del works pretty well. El Diablo Quote Link to comment
+sbell111 Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 ...(BTW in the PQ generator there is an option to only include member-only caches. If I use that and update my regular database with it, I can distinguish the MOCs by the update time.) You are correct. Load a PQ of just MOCs into GSAK. Put all of these caches on your permanent ignore list. Then, open your regular PQ and the MOCs will magically disappear. However, there are some terrific caches in your area. I bet there are some MOCs that you would rather go find. Quote Link to comment
+Kit Fox Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 In any case, I think you somewhat prove my point. The first of your MOC caches you refer to didn't accomplish what you wanted it to. A better way to limit the number of cache visitors would be to find a different place; i.e. a tougher find, tougher hike, tougher puzzle, etc. Otherwise, maybe it wasn't such a great spot for a cache in the first place? The cache was well hidden. I removed the core from a section of Dead Joshua tree and hid the cache inside. I used the rest of the core as a plug so the cache was in fact invisible. The cache was hidden on the ground next to other dead Joshua branches. The problem was cachers both Premium and Regular, destroyed the live Joshua tree nearby, as they searched for the cache. This was unacceptable to me, so I archived the cache. Fair enough. I just think that basing whether or not a person is "deserving" enough to seek a cache based on nothing more than whether they choose to contribute in one certain way, while ignoring the other ways to contribute, is in fact punitive, whether it's meant to be or not. At the time I listed the two caches as MOCs, I had over 30 other non MOC caches hidden, so no one was penalized. Quote Link to comment
+as77 Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 However, there are some terrific caches in your area. I bet there are some MOCs that you would rather go find. Yes, and for many of them, the declared intent of making it MO is to reduce traffic. Some of them are even listed on Navicache.com as well, where anyone can access the description. Quote Link to comment
+sbell111 Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 I'm not trying to insult you in any way, but I missed your point. Quote Link to comment
+El Diablo Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 However, there are some terrific caches in your area. I bet there are some MOCs that you would rather go find. Yes, and for many of them, the declared intent of making it MO is to reduce traffic. Some of them are even listed on Navicache.com as well, where anyone can access the description. Most MOC caches aren't listed to reduce traffic...they are listed to reduce vandalized caches. Everyone here that lists a cache hopes that it gets a lot of hits. History shows that MOC caches are less likely to be vandalized than general caches. It's not an elistest thing, it's a protection thing. El Diablo Quote Link to comment
+as77 Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 The point was that I think many, or maybe most of the MOs in my area are MOs for legitimate reasons, so I can go find them anyway. Quote Link to comment
+as77 Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 It's not an elistest thing, it's a protection thing. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. If you read the OP you will realize that this thread is not about the MOCs that are MO for protection. The OP's intent was to recruit more PMs by placing a lot of MOCs everywhere. Quote Link to comment
+BigHank Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 Getting back to the original point, that of a method of increasing paid membership: It seems to me that if TPTB were really worried about it, they could easily come up with some ways of doing that, and that if making a certain number of caches MO was the way to go, they would have done that, so maybe there is a real good business reason why it's not a such a good idea. Quote Link to comment
+DAS&SAS Posted May 28, 2005 Author Share Posted May 28, 2005 The OP's intent was to recruit more PMs by placing a lot of MOCs everywhere. Not exactly - I don't want MOCs 'everywhere' - just more near and around free caches. I hear a lot of talk in this thread about 'other' ways to contribute to the game, but I'm not talking about making the game better, i'm talking about supporting the site. While hiding a cache is the only way to keep the game going, not having a site to post them to would sux. I want people to support the site so it will continue and maybe even add more features. It's only $30 bucks! I know for some $30 bucks might be a lot of money, but my guess is those people aren't buying $100 GPSrs or spending the $30 for a tank of gas to go geocaching either. I would wager that most of the people using this site can afford the $30 bucks a year - and those who cannot afford the $30 at once, most likely can afford the $3 a month - I mean come on, who are we kidding? Everyone who uses this site has Internet Access, not to mention they most likely have a computer. We are not talking about a group of homeless guys wondering around with a GPSr. I digress. I love this game and although most of the forum users are aware of the PM features, I was not, and niether was a friend of mine who had used the site for over a year! I showed him the pocket queries and he got his PM the next day. I just want to encourage (not force) members to upgrade to PM so we can keep the site going and improving. I don't see popup ads or spam from this site and I love that! I just want to keep it that way. Quote Link to comment
+as77 Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 I just want to encourage (not force) members to upgrade to PM so we can keep the site going and improving. It is true that the method you are suggesting does not force people to pay, but it does more than encourage them. It pressures them into paying by making a growing fraction of the hobby pay-to-play using MOCs that are exclusionary and divisive. MOCs have always been controversial since their introduction. I think you should find a different way to achieve your goal. Quote Link to comment
+Kit Fox Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 I just want to encourage (not force) members to upgrade to PM so we can keep the site going and improving. It is true that the method you are suggesting does not force people to pay, but it does more than encourage them. It pressures them into paying by making a growing fraction of the hobby pay-to-play using MOCs that are exclusionary and divisive. MOCs have always been controversial since their introduction. I think you should find a different way to achieve your goal. DAS&SAS, You are a premium member, hide as many MOCs as you want. Who cares what a few "anti MOC" cachers think. The majority of Premium members enjoy the perks that membership affords them. Hiding MOC caches to encourage others to bite the bullet is a good thing. If they don't like the fact that they can't hunt these caches, tell them to pony up the $3.00 and stop whining. $3.00 is a drop in the bucket for most cachers considering the cost of gas and other items associated with finding caches. This isn't a "welfare collection" site. You aren't denying anyone anything. They have the ability to find these caches if they chose too. If they choose to protest the MOCs and refuse to pay $3.00, it is their loss not mine. Quote Link to comment
4x4van Posted May 29, 2005 Share Posted May 29, 2005 (edited) I just think that basing whether or not a person is "deserving" enough to seek a cache based on nothing more than whether they choose to contribute in one certain way, while ignoring the other ways to contribute, is in fact punitive, whether it's meant to be or not. At the time I listed the two caches as MOCs, I had over 30 other non MOC caches hidden, so no one was penalized. Actually, in reality, you were penalizing people. The fact that you had 30 other caches out there is great. But those who "paid up" had 32 of your caches to seek. No, it's not a big deal, but it is reality. Everyone here that lists a cache hopes that it gets a lot of hits. History shows that MOC caches are less likely to be vandalized than general caches. Where do you get your info, because I'd really like to see those numbers. I believe that most caches that are vandalized are probably done so by muggles, who by definition simply stumble across them. So hiding the coordinates from a large percentage of geocachers will have very little effect. Now obviously localized cache pirates do exist, but they generally get tired of their "fun" after a short time and go away, and they also prefer not to work too hard, so more difficult hikes/hides/caches would discourage them as well. Again, I do believe that cache maggots/pirates are the only legitimate reason for MOCs, and even then should only be temporary till the problem goes away. But that's me, and obviously there are different opinions on this. I've already said that since TPTB have decided to make MOCs available, I support your right to place them, for whatever reason you want. But I still think they are more divisive than anything else. Just my opinion. Edited May 29, 2005 by 4x4van Quote Link to comment
+fly46 Posted May 29, 2005 Share Posted May 29, 2005 If they don't like the fact that they can't hunt these caches, tell them to pony up the $3.00 and stop whining. $3.00 is a drop in the bucket for most cachers considering the cost of gas and other items associated with finding caches. This isn't a "welfare collection" site. Once again you assume that those who aren't Members are so because they don't feel like paying the money. I make on average only about $100 a week. Out of that $100 comes living expenses (ie, car insurance, gas, etc), things like clothes for work (casual dress but most of the clothes I already owned when I got this job I couldn't wear to work), etc... Aside from those expenses, I am a college student, so out of my limited money I had to pay for school supplies, text books, etc... When all is said and done, there's very little money in the piggy. I've had to quit fan clubs I was a member for, I have zero savings, and I don't get to do things I really like to do. Paying for Geocaching is a really nice idea, but it's not in the budget. I'd rather buy a set of TB tags than pay for the use of a site that I can use for free. As for other expenses that you list? Chances are that many of the cachers that don't pay to play don't always pay to cache either. I don't think that I've done so much as 10% of the driving to the caches I've done this year. Quote Link to comment
+tabulator32 Posted May 29, 2005 Share Posted May 29, 2005 Concerning membership drive (original topic) I had an idea the other day and I think I'm going to do it. Once a month or so, I'm going to buy a Geocaching book or DVD and donate it to one of the local libraries in the area. I went to the closest library in my neighborhood and did a search for geocaching...nothin'! A year from now, there will be about a dozen libraries in the area where people can find information about geocaching. I know most people will get their info about it online, however, there are people who will research it in their local library, or happen across the book/video while browsing. I think that will be one of my new goals for a while. I'll see how it goes. Quote Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted May 29, 2005 Share Posted May 29, 2005 12 out of the 20 nearest caches that I have not found are MO caches. Such is life. Quote Link to comment
+bikinibottomfeeders Posted May 29, 2005 Share Posted May 29, 2005 I think that one benefit of the members only caches are that you can list it as MO until someone gets the first finders prize if it is something significant. Just the other day someone in my area listed a cache and the first finders prize was worth $26. Maybe memberships could be obtained in other ways than $. Maybe in hosting events, reviewing caches, etc.? Just some thoughts Quote Link to comment
+DAS&SAS Posted May 29, 2005 Author Share Posted May 29, 2005 When all is said and done, there's very little money in the piggy. Not to belabor the point, but with your limited resources, you are able to gain internet access, and a computer to boot - you obviously have a GPSr as well. If you wanted to have PM features, you would find a way, but it's just not one of your priorities. My original post was not how to make people pony up the cache (pun intended) as much as encourage members to learn about the added benefits of being a PM. I became a PM because of a members only cache that was in a park with two non-MOCs and I am very glad that I did. For those of you who know all the ins and outs of being a PM and have decided not to pay for the site - cache on and enjoy yourself. I might place a cache or two that you won't be able to get to, sorry about that. Quote Link to comment
+sbell111 Posted May 29, 2005 Share Posted May 29, 2005 Occasionally someone will make a post that basically states that he knows the budget of others better than they do. Their psychic powers make me want to hurl. Quote Link to comment
+DAS&SAS Posted May 29, 2005 Author Share Posted May 29, 2005 Occasionally someone will make a post that basically states that he knows the budget of others better than they do. Their psychic powers make me want to hurl. I certainly wasn't trying to make anyone hurl - however you don't need psychic powers to understand that someone who can gain access to a computer, an internet connection, and a GPSr, could most likely find an extra $3 a month. If anyone is sooo strapped that $3 a month is too much, then they couldn't afford the extra gas to cache much less the cost of the equipment. I've done a lot of communitee work and I have seen many under-privleged families. I know there are people out there who could not afford the $30 a year fee, but those families aren't on this forum and don't caching every weekend. The issue here is priorities, not money. If you disagree, then we will have to agree to disagree on this point. I'm not upset that anyone has other priorities - anyone that doesn't want to pay for the PM features certainly doesn't have too. I'm not suggesting that they should have to. I don't know how this thread turned this direction anyway - I never suggested that I want everyone to have to pay. I wasn't aware of the conflicts over MOCs. I've learned alot from reading everyones thoughts, although I'm still not sure what a geo maggot is. I am glad I posted, I'm glad I got to hear everyones thoughts and I certainly hope I haven't offended anyone in the process. Thanks for the ride! Quote Link to comment
+sbell111 Posted May 29, 2005 Share Posted May 29, 2005 Do you remember college? I do. My computer access was using the schools computers. I remember that I was so broke that on Friday afternoon, I would walk off campus to the nearby pizza place and get their $5 carryout pizza. That was my meals for the entire weekend. How dare you judge what others can afford? Quote Link to comment
+DAS&SAS Posted May 30, 2005 Author Share Posted May 30, 2005 How dare you judge what others can afford? Again, we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm sorry if that offends you. Quote Link to comment
+Kit Fox Posted May 30, 2005 Share Posted May 30, 2005 If they don't like the fact that they can't hunt these caches, tell them to pony up the $3.00 and stop whining. $3.00 is a drop in the bucket for most cachers considering the cost of gas and other items associated with finding caches. This isn't a "welfare collection" site. Once again you assume that those who aren't Members are so because they don't feel like paying the money. I make on average only about $100 a week. Out of that $100 comes living expenses (ie, car insurance, gas, etc), things like clothes for work (casual dress but most of the clothes I already owned when I got this job I couldn't wear to work), etc... Aside from those expenses, I am a college student, so out of my limited money I had to pay for school supplies, text books, etc... When all is said and done, there's very little money in the piggy. I've had to quit fan clubs I was a member for, I have zero savings, and I don't get to do things I really like to do. Paying for Geocaching is a really nice idea, but it's not in the budget. I'd rather buy a set of TB tags than pay for the use of a site that I can use for free. As for other expenses that you list? Chances are that many of the cachers that don't pay to play don't always pay to cache either. I don't think that I've done so much as 10% of the driving to the caches I've done this year. Believe me I know what being broke is all about. I support a wife and two kids on one income. I have 20 ammo cans in my garage that I can't afford to fill with swag, to place in the field. There are a lot of activities that I would love to engage in but due to my income and life situation I can't. This is the life I chose, and accept it. I cache when I can afford to, and I work 24 to 32 hours extra a month, in order to support my family and my caching addiction. Where there is a will, there is a way. If a cacher wants to find all the MOCs in his area, while still a member (non premium) he can come up with $3.00. If they are unable to afford the $3.00, they can save up for it. Mow someones lawn, do some yard work for an old lady, recycle aluminum cans, do something to come up with the $3.00 dollars. You can even hold a sign on a street corner, that says, "will geocache for food." After earning the $3.00, they can access all the coordinates of the MOC in their area, and find them at their leisure. Even if their one month dues expire, they can still log the MOCs by knowing the "trick" to logging these caches. Quote Link to comment
+southdeltan Posted May 30, 2005 Share Posted May 30, 2005 I'm surprised this thread is still going. I should have posted this response days ago but I was busy and figured this would fizzle out. I'll admit I've skipped a fair bit of this thread, so forgive me if this has been mentioned already. Here's a quote from Jeremy Irish from some months back: Contrary to what some say, the intent of Member only caches was not to encourage people to become Premium Members. I don't plan to offer this capability to entice people to upgrade their membership. Instead, I'd rather provide new features like ignore lists. It can be found in this post from this thread (which was about pretty much the same thing as this "new" thread is about). MOC's don't generate a lot of interest in new memberships because that's not their primary purpose. I rarely talk to a premium member who signed up for MOC's unless it was to HIDE them. Most people mention PQ's or supporting the site. As others in this thread have stated, there are ways that "real" geocachers can get coordinates to MOC's with or without paying and there is a known way to log them. Luckily, most cache thieves don't know this and/or are too lazy/cheap to be bothered. MOC's aren't a foolproof method against theft, but it is a working solution. I do suspect this thread will fizzle out eventually, and in a few months some new person will post an identical thread. It has been my experience that most people who use the site regularly and CAN support the website do support the website financially. Those that don't have the money support in other ways (like listing caches). sd Quote Link to comment
+DAS&SAS Posted June 1, 2005 Author Share Posted June 1, 2005 Here's a quote from Jeremy Irish from some months back: Contrary to what some say, the intent of Member only caches was not to encourage people to become Premium Members. I don't plan to offer this capability to entice people to upgrade their membership. Instead, I'd rather provide new features like ignore lists. Is it just me, or does anyone else see the contradiction in Jeremy Irish's statement? I don't plan to offer this capability (MOCs as a new feature) to entice people to upgrade their membership. Instead, I'd rather provide new features like ignore lists (and MOCs) Italics added. Just wondering if I'm the only one? Quote Link to comment
+Marky Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 The reason I became a paying member was not because of pocket searches... The reason I became a premium member was because I thought CarleenP did the pocket searches... --Marky Quote Link to comment
+DAS&SAS Posted June 1, 2005 Author Share Posted June 1, 2005 The reason I became a paying member was not because of pocket searches... The reason I became a premium member was because I thought CarleenP did the pocket searches... --Marky I don't care who you are, that's funny right thur.... Quote Link to comment
+Muggermots Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 I'm a PM but I don't like MOCs and when I see that someone makes a cache MO for no good reason, I choose to boycott that cache: I don't go hunt for it. Might be more effective to go ahead and hunt it, and when you log it, question publicly their reason for making it MO... because then you would not just have the cache page to base your disagreement with their "purpose" or lack thereof, but a physical visit to the site and contact with the actual cache. Quote Link to comment
+Team Dromomania Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 I have a new cache in planning - actually 4 of them. 3 will be regular 20mm Ammo boxes with nice swags and with clues/coords for a 4th 50mm ammo box with nicer swags. I will list that one as a MOC. Why? Because that how I choose to play the game in this case. I don't think I need any other reason. Geocaching is great. Everybody can choose how they want to play. Some log, some don't. Some trade, some don't. Some micro, some don't. And some get MOCs and some don't. Quote Link to comment
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