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Marking Destroyed


Team Zappy 45
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B)I'm new to bench marking. I'm logging a lot of first logs in my area. If a disk is in a bridge and the bridge is replaced can I mark destroyed? If it was in a curb and the intersection has been widened 3 more lanes? I got one were the old bridge is gone and the new bridge is moved to a new spot. How about one that is now under water (a pond) Our county is the fastest growing in Illinois. Urban sprawl.

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I also live in a very fast growing county - Gwinnet County, GA. It indeed makes "benchmarking" more of a challenge. ;)

 

As I understand, the criteria for formally logging a benchmark as destroyed with the NGS is very high - basically you have to witness or have direct evidence to log with certainty a mark as being destroyed. As to logging here on Geocaching.com, this is a much less formal site, although personally I prefer to log (I've seen others do this which has influenced me) as "mark not found - presumed destroyed due to . . ."

 

I am still very new at this too, so I'm sure other members here will add their input. :huh:

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I've learned to be VERY cautious about declaring a mark destroyed, from experience such as these: NJ0584 and LE0221. In the first case I thought the bridge had been replaced by a culvert. Then later I discovered the mark was still there and the old bridge WAS the culvert with the road built up several feet over it. In the second case I was lucky and quickly found the mark in a surviving wing wall even though you could drive past and see no evidence there ever had been a bridge there.

 

The moral is that you need to have evidence of destruction (maybe not ironclad ffor GC site), not just lack of evidence that it still exists. To be bolder is to risk being found wrong by the next searcher.

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Zappy,

 

Basically put, it means that NGS could not find it in 1972. That does not mean it cannot be found ever in some cases and it does not mean that it is destroyed, But in each case that could also be true.

 

If you found it in 2005 and they could not in 1972, well very good then. That can happen.

 

There are two kinds of criteria going on here. Geocaching allows you to file a destroyed. NGS does not allow anyone but them selves to have that capability. If you are reporting to them and you think something is Destroyed, they will likely not destroy it because they depend on an empirical burden of truth. A tough customer indeed.

 

My personal druthers would be to make the Geocaching criteria the same as the NGS criteria so as to remove some confusion but I have my doubts on that. But if you like, you can practice the NGS method and consider all that you do not Find as a Not Found rather than a destroyed until you become more comfortable with the process.

 

Good luck,

 

Rob

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Zappy -

 

The criteria that I apply to myself for logging a benchmark as DESTROYED are:

 

1. If it's a disk (or some other mark that is not an intersection station) and I can't find it (for whatever reason), it's DIDN'T FIND IT. This applies whether the bridge is gone, the road is widened or the old post office has been razed. I have several hundred DIDN'T FIND IT's of this type.

 

2. The only exception to the above is this: if I've reported a non-intersection station to the NGS as NOT FOUND and Deb Brown, upon reviewing my recovery, reclassifies the station as DESTROYED, then I log it as DESTROYED in Geocaching. I have one of these.

 

3. If the mark is an intersection station, I'll log it as DESTROYED if either the thing is no longer there or, if the thing has been re-built, the intersected point is not in the same place as before. If the stack is not there, it's DESTROYED. If the six-legged water tank has been replaced with a watersphere, it's DESTROYED, and if the church with the steeple at the northwest corner has been rebuilt and the steeple now rises from the northeast corner, it's DESTROYED, as well.

 

While I do not hold myself out as being the keeper of the gold standard for logging marks as DESTROYED, I think most experienced and/or serious benchmark hunters use substatially the same criteria.

 

In fast-growing metropolitan areas where gazillions of marks have been paved-over or otherwise rendered unfindable, the criteria, above, work to give the concientious benchmark hunter a really crummy find rate. But success in FINDING benchmarks is (or, should be) subordinate to the fun and satisfaction of just looking for them.

 

Will

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My personal druthers would be to make the Geocaching criteria the same as the NGS criteria so as to remove some confusion but I have my doubts on that.

 

Rob

I'm happy with two different criteria for the two sites.

 

A DNF here I don't report to NGS, since my inability to find it doesn't necessarily mean anything to them.

 

I have to be pretty certain it's destroyed to tell NGS I couldn't find it.

 

(Of course, a find is a find.)

 

And to the OP's example of "under water"...that isn't anywhere near a "destroyed" to NGS. I've seen where they will dig up a foot of asphalt to find a mark. (There are 3 benchmarks that were flooded by reservoir construction nearby. I'm not even sure I should report a DNF here.)

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It's almost funny - I think I have more "destroyed" marks to my name than "founds"!! Why? Because I've been hunting intersection stations I know to be destroyed, AND I've been reading all the datasheets for my area, where there are recovery notes where the survey team destroyed the mark, but it was mis-entered in the database (found about 5-6 of those)

 

The fun of the old intersection stations for ME is getting old photos of them, then photos of the location NOW to submit. A bit of history

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It's almost funny - I think I have more "destroyed" marks to my name than "founds"!! Why? Because I've been hunting intersection stations I know to be destroyed, AND I've been reading all the datasheets for my area, where there are recovery notes where the survey team destroyed the mark, but it was mis-entered in the database (found about 5-6 of those)

 

The fun of the old intersection stations for ME is getting old photos of them, then photos of the location NOW to submit. A bit of history

Now that sounds like fun, kc2ixe! I have two destroyeds at NGS. I know that KV4013 is destroyed. It's quite obvious. But I haven't been able to find any history on it. One day, I'll just take a lot of photos, and submit them.

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Now that sounds like fun, kc2ixe! I have two destroyeds at NGS. I know that KV4013 is destroyed. It's quite obvious. But I haven't been able to find any history on it. One day, I'll just take a lot of photos, and submit them.

That one won't need a history - the photos you already have, with the description is enough (IMHO) I've had some destroyed with less

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Deb has consistently accepted pics from me that show my GPS with a GOTO pointer and the missing intersection station. They are pretty easy to prove destroyed as it can be quite obvious they are no longer there.

 

I also have quite a few "destroyeds". Most are intersection stations but I have found about 8 disks destroyed too.

 

Matt

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I have in my possession, two "loggable" benchmarks that I was very confident as marking "destroyed" for gc.com.

 

 

JZ3494

 

and....

 

JZ0826

 

I have a contact with the local surveyors office, so that when they are destroyed and in need of "disposal", I have the option of taking them. they kind of make cool gifts for your "nerdy" benchmarking friends.... :(:blink:

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Umm, 4leafclover, my first reaction at your "travelling benchmark" is *shudder*. As a polite query, could you possibly attach a geotag to it, so it's no longer logged as a usual benchmark?

 

As to Destroyeds, here in Albuquerque we have a lot of urban sprawl. There are a few stations where I feel comfortable Geocaching logging it as DESTROYED, while it would be definitely a NOT FOUND on NGS.

 

Take for instance FO1140 HEAVEN which is right next to a cemetery. RM 1 and RM 2 survive, and point at the right ADJUSTED coordinates, which are in the middle of a new sidewalk. This is a NOT FOUND according to seventhing's requirements, which I follow (with minor nuances) for NGS logging. However, for Geocaching purposes it's good enough for a DESTROYED. That sucker is definitely gone, as it would even be sticking up above the level of the new sidewalk if it were still there. However, with the NGS I can't Prove it's not there anymore.

 

There are some stations I'll log as NOT FOUND on Geocaching that I won't log on NGS because of the implications of professionals searching for the mark.

Edited by BuckBrooke
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Um, Buck,

 

You have just been Had bro... These stations are now a brass discs on her desk, and she lampooned you too boot.

 

4LF is trolling for benchmark hunters and she "caught" you.

 

I've got your back. No worries.

 

:-)

 

Rob

 

PS 4LF, They are only loggable if they are still in the ground, you may want to share that with all your buddies who have been having fun with your souvenir. You got a couple of Not Founds there. You are the last legit finder of one and you can only log a destroyed on the other. No one else can ever log a real find on them any more. They are Dead Benchmarks now.

 

:(:blink:

Edited by evenfall
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Here's a quote from a recent email from Deb:

Here's the scoop so that you can make a call better.  If the setting,...in this case a pipe mark in concrete,...is still stable but the disk missing then it's POOR.  If the disk is in it but the setting is messed up then it's POOR, if the setting with our without the disk is uprooted then it's destroyed.
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As I said in another thread, I highly recommend that if anyone has a benchmark disk in their possession they engrave it with the PID and date destroyed so as to reduce future confusion. One of those "anti-theft" electric engravers would do the trick, or even a carefully scratched lettering on the back. Then if it changes hands no one needs to wonder if that was disk 74 from Ohio or disk 74 they were looking for in Indiana (or sometimes even different counties in same state).

 

If had a disk and knew for sure where it came from, no matter how I got it, then I would feel an obligation to be sure it was recorded as Destroyed at NGS. If a surveyor gave it to me, I'd ask if he had gotten it officially marked destroyed. I note that the current NGS data sheets for the two marks mentioned above do not show them as having been removed.

 

You don't have any obligation to log your ordinary found/not found reports at NGS but if you have the disk, then you do have the obligation. Professionals sometimes feel they don't have time (=budget) to do the reporting. If you have time to play with benchmarks as a hobby, then you have time to report. Send a picture and explanation to Deb Brown.

 

These actions are needed to minimize confusion and avoid loss of data, and I get emotional about keeping data as accurate as practical.

Edited by Bill93
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Rats.

I'm reading this thread and looking at seventhingss description of destroyered and agree. Then I have an air of doubt thrown in by the others.

 

Clarification on the following. Two nearby tbenchmarks are listed as radio towers. They're on military ground so they may not necessarily be "viewable" to the public from perimeter fences. Through a contact I arrange to visit the site. Upon arrival I can see that the tower structure itself is no longer present, but the concrete bases still exist.

 

To my way of thinking I have "found" that the benchmark has "been destroyed" . When logging I put them as "destroyed" (just found out that doesn't count in my totals) and write a paragraph listing their demise. Condition of entry was "no photographs" so I don't photograph the tower not being there.

 

Right? Wrong? Something else? Email this mystery Deb for an umpires decision?

Edited by Pioneer 'n' Tiff
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Pioneer 'n' Tiff -

 

In my opinion, the fact that you found the concrete base for the tower but the tower no longer rises from the base gives you a "DESTROYED" for Geocaching and a "NOT FOUND" should you chose to report this recovery to the NGS.

 

Alternatively (additionally), you could also send an e-mail to Deb Brown with a description of the situation and a few photographs (one of the concrete base and one of the area with no tower in it), and Deb will (probably) reclassify the tower as DESTROYED in the NG database, as well.

 

mloser describes, above, a technique for including the GPS with the GOTO pointer pointing to the destroyed station's empty location in the area photo submitted to Deb. I use the same technique, and it seems to satisfy the NGS.

 

Will

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Some of my pics only produced a fuzzy image of the GPS and they were still accepted by Deb. Maybe some of us have gotten a good reputation at NGS for being accurate and only circumstantial evidence is necessary. I am pretty sure Deb believes we knew where we were when we took the pics!

 

The only one she denied was an actual monument, which was leaning at a 30 degree angle. She made me submit it as Poor. I admit to an alterior motive when I attempted to get it marked as destroyed--I wanted the disk! Oh well.

 

Matt

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