+klaus23 Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 Take a look at SPICE Bristol and these logs. Not bad for taking people out at £12-£15 and bringing 15 each time... taking £12.50 as the average is over £187. I'm in the wrong job now I know there's nothing to stop them - and it's interesting and all that - but we're doing it for FREE... fools and their money eh? Link to comment
nobby.nobbs Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 wouldn't mind his gps though, he recons he can get to within centimetres of a cache!! one born every minute Link to comment
+John NW Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 I wonder if the "Willing volunteers" know that they are?!??! Link to comment
+Pengy&Tigger Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 So what happens if one of them takes a TB? We visited a cache yesterday where a group of cubs had visited. Nothing wrong with that, but they hadn't logged it online and they had taken the TB that was in it. T Link to comment
+Birders Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 (edited) Little one can do about it, but still despicable. He has only found 6 caches so he probably knows little about the sport and could ruin it for serious cachers. And he's not even a Premium member! Edited May 23, 2005 by Birders Link to comment
+McDeHack Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 Ah! But how many mugs did he get? Link to comment
+The Spokes Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 (edited) What is wrong with it. How much does it cost you to go on a hunt. I bet its more than £12.50 Petrol wear and tear. People have always paid for coach trips and enjoy them. ( would hate to go on one_) So if your in the wrong job all you have to do is buy a coach get a licence put in the fuel tax and insure it. Get liability insurance. Advertise. Service the vehicle. And there you go. Fortune made. Good luck Oh and McDehack arnt you a taxi driver. If someone used your taxi to go to a cache location would he also be a mug? Edited May 23, 2005 by The Spokes Link to comment
+Nottrikk Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 (edited) Interestingly enough, they did take a TB from reading the logs and placed it in the next cache that they visited. The TB is still logged for the previous cache though. Just a thought, but it might be an idea for one of the mods or the owner of the cache that it's in to mail this SpiceBristol person and let them know that there is a procedure for TB logging. Incidentally, I do hope that they have public liability insurance after reading the log for Aqua marina. But Anyhoo. Not happy with the situation, but if there are peple out there who want to do it and if they have money to burn and can't be bothered to check it up on the web, let them waste it. Just follow the guidelines. Edited May 23, 2005 by Nottrikk Link to comment
+HazelS Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 Hmmm... I'm not happy about this.... one of the lovely things about Caching is that it's totally free once you have the gubbins to do it with.... so charging people is like making money out of us all. The other things that really worries me is the thing with the TB's... will we suddenly see TB's go missing becasue someone liked the look of it, took it home and then never went caching again becasue they couldn't afford the £12.50 charge??? Link to comment
NickPick Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 I was imagining this was more like a "Try before you buy" type thing, where people can go along and use Spice's GPS to have a go at geocaching. After they've decided to carry on, they have to buy their own GPS. You can do the same through our adopt-a-newbie scheme, but to find out about that, you've got to visit the forums. Perhaps we should think of a way to publicise our voluntary scheme, thus making it more difficult to make money from newbies? Link to comment
+daleswalker Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 Spice are a national company that arrange lots of different activities for single people to get out and about and meet other people. (someone I know joined when she got divorced quite late in life) and from what I have picked up (no pun intended) they don't tend to "re-visit" an activity after they have done it once. Caching this week, aerial assault course next (you get the idea). So although I'm against any sort of profit making from our hobby it probably won't turn into a regular problem. Link to comment
+derrylynne Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 Must say I was a bit shocked at the cheek of this one. Especially where it said volunteers look after the caches. What about the quote 'All of this is supported by some willing volunteers who keep a weather eye on their local cache’s and keep the websites up to date.' Hell, the volunteers are the cache owners. It does look like this is a one off, as the organisation does many other things. But I don't like the idea of other people making money out of our hobby. Apart from the risk of t/b going missing. Also when we go to a cache, we are discreet. How discreet is a mob of people descending onto a cache for everyone else to see. And not everyone will respect the cache. Only other geocachers will in general do this. I think this organisation needs a polite letter from someone to inform them what opinion is on this one. We then need to let the public know about the hobby, and the free support that can be given to interested parties.. Link to comment
+kbootb Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 Interesting one this. First reaction was of course 'b****** cheek'. But hang on. I paid for companies to take me on various experiences that could have become 'free' hobbies. All I needed to do was buy the equipment for myself. Rock climbing, sailing, mountain biking, hiking, kayaking, caving, skiing..... Some of these I have gone on, bought the equipment and continued. Others clearly require a degree of professional instruction and supervision. Others don't require 'professional' but to be with some one more experienced certainly helps. Others you can clearly just get on with and learn how to do yourself. So just to get a leg up into an activity, borrow the gear, learn a bit more about it and then take it up for yourself... why should Geocaching be immune from that. So long as they make it clear that the norm is to go it alone. OK, so they could get it for free using the adopt a newbie scheme. But if this is their only way in, so be it. However, their description and details about the sport must be 100% accurate. Link to comment
+McDeHack Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 Oh and McDehack arnt you a taxi driver. If someone used your taxi to go to a cache location would he also be a mug? No. They would be a fare paying passenger. Come and ride in the 'Hack mobile' for a caching experience of some of the London geocaches. Pub caches a speciality. For the correct fee a grand slam of the travel bug airport hotels can be included in the tour. Heathrow, Gatwick, Luton, Stanstead, and the London City. (If their are no caches in some of these airports, There will be when we get there) Bring your own TBs. Link to comment
+Haggis Hunter Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 This is just quite obviously wrong. Every one who puts a cache out, spends their money to do so. This person is making money out of what we do for free. If anyone logs a find at one of my caches the same as this, I will send them an invoice for using it. After all, we all put back in what we take out. This person is making a living at our expense. Link to comment
+-Phoenix- Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 hm, if they plan on making some kind of long term buisness deal out of this then its VERY wrong, however, as a one-off 'suck it an see' session then, maybe I think the real problem is discipline, as cachers we tend to be carefull not to make the actual location of the caches too well known, and are descrete when jo public are about, however, a mob of 15 people searching an area is going to raise too much attention. Also, as cachers we tend to have something invested in the sport, and consequently exercise a responsibility (mostly), I find it hard to believe that 15 people from 'off the street' will exercise the same resonsibility, and I wonder how many will consider going back to rehide teh cache, 'just for a laugh' These people should be encouraged to place their own caches themselves, they can then chose to log them online or not, but, unless they have explicit permission from the cache owners then this is wrong. Link to comment
nobby.nobbs Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 we can stuff him totally. all we need to do is remove our permission for him to find our caches. an official email from either gc.com or gagb etc. if he hasn't permission then his insurance will be dadgum dodgy! all local cachers email him now! it's that or we try to educate him......or as badger would describe it learn him!! Link to comment
+one4zorro Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 Geocaching.com make money out of the sport and also run GeoTeaming (Corporate Team Building) which they charge for, so whats the difference with what this company are doing? You have a choice if you want to pay them or not. AND at £12.50 a time they are not going to get rich on that...... I run photography courses, I wouldn't get out of bed for that much! Just my two pence worth! Martin Link to comment
+kbootb Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 Also, as cachers we tend to have something invested in the sport, and consequently exercise a responsibility (mostly), I find it hard to believe that 15 people from 'off the street' will exercise the same resonsibility, and I wonder how many will consider going back to rehide teh cache, 'just for a laugh' Excellent point. Also the idea that this rather lowers the filters if you see what I mean. People who have had to 'discover' geocaching and put the effort into it are likely to be pre- disposed to a positive attitude towards it. If it is too easy to get over the first hurdles and then not have a good day, it makes it easier for them to have a negative attitude and perhaps even become a 'cache-trasher'. Hmm... perhaps I need to think again. Perhaps I am more anti the idea than I first thought. Link to comment
+Happy Humphrey Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 I can't see a problem with it in principle. If you devise a new route up a cliff face or mountain and a guide charges clients to guide them up your route, using your description and perhaps taking advantage of equipment you left in place, you don't expect a cut of his fees. Some common-sense guidelines should be observed though. These would just be to vary the set of caches used all the time (to avoid trampling the surrounding area too often), and to ensure that all caches are found and re-hidden under the supervision of a responsible person. The responsible person would also ensure that if the cache is likely to be compromised by their searching, then the search is abandoned immediately. It would be in their interests to make it known that they follow these guidelines. After all, we hide these caches to be found by anyone. It's quite a compliment if a guided group is brought to your cache. However, if you feel offended by such a group then why not discourage them, by warning them (and other undesirable people) in the cache description; "NO group finds! NO professional cachers! NO TV documentary makers! NO feature films!" Link to comment
+Haggis Hunter Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 Geocaching.com make money out of the sport and also run GeoTeaming (Corporate Team Building) which they charge for, so whats the difference with what this company are doing? Yes, but the money they make goes back into the website allowing people to be able to use it for free, i'm sure none of the money that they make goes back into GC.com. You have a choice if you want to pay them or not. AND at £12.50 a time they are not going to get rich on that...... I run photography courses, I wouldn't get out of bed for that much! Maybe you wouldn't get out of bed for that, but if he gets 15 people a day (say companies use it for team building) at 5 times a week, that is £937.50 a week. Now I would get out of bed for that, espescially when it is getting out doing something I enjoy. At a guess I have forked out about £150 (if not more) placing caches, why should I go to that expense for someone to come along and make money out of finding my cache? Link to comment
+dunos Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 My first thought was that this is wrong. My second was that I wish I had thought of it. This will raise awareness of geocaching. Much like the TV news clips and radio shows that we get excited about. £12.50 may sound like alot of money however I would imagine that it doesn't actually result in alot of profit. From reading their website they have to pay for an office, a vehicle, and if they don't want to end up bankrupt then alot of public liability insurance. I wouldn't imagine that a large group of people is that much more suspicious than just one person stomping around in a bush. It will be obvious they are on some sort of activity day and if I was a walker I would try to stay clear of them. I would have thought that the cache locations would have been discovered by the company before hand so that they would know roughly where to look. What about event caches? Do the local caches in the area suddenly have to cope with lots of people turning up on the same day or within a short period of time? The Blaze Castle cache and the Hansel and Gretel cache would be quite good for a large group. People won't cause much damage to the environment while hunting these two caches I would have thought. Everyone has to start somewhere and while GPS costs are getting lower I can see that it would be a barrier to someone who didn't know if they wanted to continue with a hobby or not. It doesn't look like they are planning on doing this every week or every day. Infact from their events calendar they don't appear to have another Geocaching day planned. A polite email, possibly from one of the cache owners or from our forum moderators, might not go amis just to confirm the guidelines on things like travel bugs, cito, etc. I think it would be worrying if we were to chastise these people when we could educate them. Why sound like an elitest clique when we could include someone in an activity that we enjoy and others could also enjoy. Surely if people can be introudced to the activity by an organised event rather than stumbling over the website and not bothering to read the guidelines then this would be a good thing? Link to comment
+The Spokes Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 This is just quite obviously wrong. Every one who puts a cache out, spends their money to do so. This person is making money out of what we do for free. If anyone logs a find at one of my caches the same as this, I will send them an invoice for using it. After all, we all put back in what we take out. This person is making a living at our expense. In another hobby I do SPICE come with a group to try out the sport a couple of times a year, for a have a go day They do loads of different and diverse things. You want exposure for your hobby you got it. Some might take it up most will not. For goodness sake their not making anything out of you and even if they were so what is no skin off your nose. Leave them alone. Their giving people a chance to experience what you have found by other means. You could always place you caches and not list them. that way you should have no problems with people making thier fortunes out of you Link to comment
+sTeamTraen Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 It would have been pretty tragic if the Bristol area cache owners had got together and collectively had their caches pull a sickie that morning, though. Link to comment
+Happy Humphrey Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 How do you know that the supervisor of the event isn't one of the Bristol cache owners? There's no reason he'd use his normal caching name for logging the group caches. Link to comment
+Simply B Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 I don't see much wrong with what they're doing, provided - as already said - that it's occasional and they make sure the group acts discretely. Maybe suggest that they set up and maintain a few caches themselves, so that they put something back in for the rest of us? Link to comment
60North Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 It promotes the sport, which potentially brings in more members, more money to GC. Lets encourage it. Link to comment
+McDeHack Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 Just another point. In the advertisment for people to go on this geocaching hunt. Surely only people that are interested and are willing to pay for the experience to try and see what this is about would book. Maybe it as others in this thread have stated. Could not be a bad thing for our hobby. Link to comment
+rutson Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 (edited) OK, time to chuck my awe in here. Had no personal experience of SPICE, but have looked into it in the past. Basically I feel that they are a +ve organisation that should be encouraged not dismissed by the community. On the other hand they seem to be a fragmented group so painting them with one 6" brush is probably not best, but in general, let them encourage the promotion of the acivity/sport/pastime.... £12-£15 for an afternoon's entertainment doesn't sound bad to me, how much is Saturday afternoon ticket at Old Trafford? Semis at Wimbledon etc? (I have no idea!!!) I suspect it is in the same ball park? If people have an objection to people making money from Geocaching then I suggest stopping your subscriptions and buying no more TBs. Edited May 24, 2005 by rutson Link to comment
+Sensei TSKC Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 How do you know that the supervisor of the event isn't one of the Bristol cache owners? There's no reason he'd use his normal caching name for logging the group caches. If he was, you'd hope he knew how to log a TB properly. Obviously, he doesn't!!! Link to comment
+Sensei TSKC Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 Further to this I'd like to add the following: Firstly, like some of you I think it is wrong for this group to make money out of our hard work which we do for free. Secondly, if it is going to be done then it should be done properly: logging TB's correctly etc Thirdly. Where does the company / group leader stand in relation to insurance? Where we do it off our own bat, this group organises the event and therefore must be responsible for the people who partake in their event. Fourth. I am all in favour of promoting our sport. In fact I am doing this myself, however, in a different way. I am setting a number of caches located near to my karate clubs. This is being set up as a Treasure Hunt for club and family members. This will introduce a number of people to the idea and from there will be free to join the GeoCaching fraternity in the normal way. By this method, our group are not used, abused or misused by the hard work put in setting their own caches. Morally, SPICE are wrong even as a one off event. They are personally benefitting from what is essentially a concerted and FREE effort of GeoCachers. GC.com may make money but as has been stated, they plough money back into the sport by providing a useful web site. (A perfect example of how the internet should be used, IMHO)! Link to comment
Beer Monster Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 £12-£15 for an afternoon's entertainment doesn't sound bad to me, how much is Saturday afternoon ticket at Old Trafford? Semis at Wimbledon etc? (I have no idea!!!) I suspect it is in the same ball park? Not sure about Old Triffid, but Highbury (home of the FA cup!) is around £30 for a match, and my Mrs is off to Wimbledon this year at £50 for the day. In principle I have no objection to this. £150 less expenses to cart a bunch of people around for the day isn't going to make anyone rich. My only problems are the with TBs (as has already happened) and the bunch of people trampling around at a cache site. Many of the caches I've visited show signs of a few people looking around. A dozen people unfamiliar with the need for the site to remain inconspicuous would ruin some caches. Link to comment
+Turkey Trotter Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 (edited) I heard about Spice quite a few years ago. They are an organisation specialising in outdoors / adventure activities. I heard about it from a student and I registered for their brochure. Well FEK me the prices for some of these activities would bankrupt a small country. They are a rip-off organisation who charge the earth so that people with no organisation skills can go and do activities that would cost any motivated person next to nothing. Edited May 25, 2005 by Turkey Trotter Link to comment
+Cunning Planners Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Come and ride in the 'Hack mobile' for a caching experience of some of the London geocaches. Pub caches a speciality. For the correct fee a grand slam of the travel bug airport hotels can be included in the tour. Heathrow, Gatwick, Luton, Stanstead, and the London City. (If their are no caches in some of these airports, There will be when we get there) Bring your own TBs. Now there's an offer! Might just take you up on it one day. I'd probably be more than slightly annoyed if the company compromised my cache with one of their tours. I agree that it would be reasonable to ask them to take care and to be more accurate in their descriptions. Link to comment
+derrylynne Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 I like the idea of them setting up their own caches, then there can be no ill feeling at all, while it will promote our sport. If the group plans to make money out of geocaching, it is only reasonable to go to the expense and effort to plant and look after their own caches. I don't like the comments that anyone that don't like it should stop their subscriptions, not buy anymore t/b's, etc. That is saying - if you don't like it, get out of the sport. We are all in this because we enjoy the sport. But many of us do not relish the idea that caches could be trashed because of groups not being discreet. Like many others, I promote the sport too but this organisation is a commercial group in it for the profit, and I do not agree with an organisation making profit out of us that do it for the fun of it, and for free. As I said at the start they should now set up their own caches and then none will disagree with the idea. Link to comment
+klaus23 Posted May 26, 2005 Author Share Posted May 26, 2005 The TB was since returned for and logged correctly... log here Link to comment
+Haggis Hunter Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 I like the idea of them setting up their own caches, then there can be no ill feeling at all, while it will promote our sport. If the group plans to make money out of geocaching, it is only reasonable to go to the expense and effort to plant and look after their own caches.I don't like the comments that anyone that don't like it should stop their subscriptions, not buy anymore t/b's, etc. That is saying - if you don't like it, get out of the sport. We are all in this because we enjoy the sport. But many of us do not relish the idea that caches could be trashed because of groups not being discreet. Like many others, I promote the sport too but this organisation is a commercial group in it for the profit, and I do not agree with an organisation making profit out of us that do it for the fun of it, and for free. As I said at the start they should now set up their own caches and then none will disagree with the idea. I agree with every word that you have put there, and I don't think I could have put it better. Link to comment
+harrogate hunters Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 I have just had a look at the events in the future planned for this company, and as far as I can see the geocaching event on 21st May was a once only. There is no mention of any more events for June and July..... I dont think that if it is a 'once in a few months' activity then we do not need to get to upset about this. Link to comment
+klaus23 Posted May 26, 2005 Author Share Posted May 26, 2005 I think I'll close this one off. Thanks for all the contributions. Link to comment
Recommended Posts