Non-pids In The Box Score?

[+BuckBrooke]

Greetings, all.

I was looking at a small cluster of PIDs in Albuquerque that I think I'll go find. The central mark is FO0346 KIRTLAND 2, although there's a KIRTLAND 3 w/ PID there, so who knows if it's still there. The last recovery is a NOT FOUND in 1996.

 

Anyways, when I looked at the box score to see the reference marks around it, you find the following info:

 

FO0346|---------------------------------------------------------------------|

FO0346| PID Reference Object Distance Geod. Az |

FO0346| dddmmss.s |

FO0346| FO0348 KIRTLAND 2 RM 4 21.180 METERS 08014 |

FO0346| FO0349 KIRTLAND 3 58.423 METERS 23303 |

FO0346| CD3576 KIRTLAND 2 RM 5 RESET 29.743 METERS 25505 |

FO0346| FO1242 AIRPORT 424.276 METERS 2551056.7 |

FO0346| FO1319 ALBUQUERQUE RAD STA MAST APPROX. 2.2 KM 2752317.0 |

FO0346| CD3577 KIRTLAND 2 RM 5 73.375 METERS 35817 |

FO0346| FO0347 KIRTLAND 2 RM 3 20.162 METERS 35817 |

FO0346|---------------------------------------------------------------------|

 

Most of it I understand, but all of the PIDs in Albuquerque are FOxxxx or EQxxxx, with the odd CORS site with ACxxxx or DExxxx. The third and sixth items listed, reference marks, have CD3576 and CD3577 PID like numbers listed. There are no CDxxxx listed stations in Albuquerque, and those two PIDs don't show up in the overall database.

 

Are they just placeholding values, for reference marks that weren't entered into the database?

 

The Geocaching archived datasheet doesn't show the CD3576/CD3577 stuff, which is kind of wierd.

Edited May 19, 2005 by BuckBrooke

[holograph]

I see the same thing occasionally in my county, where most PIDs are LY____ or KV____, but reference marks without datasheets are CB____ and sometimes CF____ or CS____. They're probably in the secret database.

[mloser]

These have been discussed here before, and are simply reference marks that have not been surveyed to a high enough order to have their own PIDs in the database. They are just the reference marks to this station (in this case the OLDER reference marks were surveyed to a high enough accuracy to have their own PIDs, but when new RMs were set they were not surveyed to that high an order, or perhaps not surveyed beyond their reference to the station).

 

Matt

[evenfall]

Buck,

 

Those are as you Guessed RM's with PID's. The database is all things to NGS, but not all of it is generally important to everyone. They publish values to the Data they feel meets a particular criteria. If it does not meet a criteria they do not publish it. That does not mean that they will not want to keep track of information in house.

 

Reference Marks are not placed into the Database unless a form of Survey data has been ascribed to them. Simply being a reference mark is not enough. None the less the NGS data still needs a way of getting to Data quickly, so, for their in-house work, they have a PID.

[+BuckBrooke]

Ok. By Reference Marks with PIDs, I'm guessing you mean Reference Marks with "fake" PIDs, that just take up the space.

 

Another question. When looking at the angle listed to the reference, I can understand the format of dddmmss.s, and you see that for two of the Box marks. However, for the others you have 5 digits, with no decimal. What does that refer to?

[ArtMan]

My presumption is that some marks were sighted only to degree-minute precision (perhaps from a map rather than in the field?), and others to tenths-of-a-second. You can see more clearly in a monospaced font on the datasheet as the digits line up under the dddmmss.s.

 

-ArtMan-

[evenfall]

No Buck, I was clear in my communication to you. I make a point of meaning what I mean. Why else would I bother going into such long drawn out answers. If I wanted to be ambiguous I could easily manage that in one poorly constructed Paragraph.

 

The NGS Databases Info. It is a PID. It is just not available to the public. It is not Fake nor is it a little white lie.

 

It is simply a product of how databases work and what the owner of the database wants to signify as something they want to have direct access to. It is a function of most databases to have administrative access and selectable levels of user access. We see this database only through the window they want us to. I am sure they have all kinds of information stored it in and a number of different ways to retrieve it that has nothing to do with what the public sees.

 

These RM's are referenced for their convenience. If they had real survey data which was up to the standards they publish, then they would publish them.

 

As to your 5 digit question. That is a Bearing to the RM. RM's are too close to the survey mark to delineate any difference in the second range. If you see a 5 digit number listed next to an RM that say for instance, 32932 You are looking at 329 Degrees 32 minutes and to be honest, you could round that down to 329 even, and go find it with a Compass. Many Compasses only provide 2 degree accuracy so round up or down from 329. You will still find it if it is there.

 

Rob

[+Black Dog Trackers]

BuckBrooke -

 

Some RMs have regular PIDs because their location data has been submitted to the NGS and adjusted.

Other RMs have these mysterious PID-like serial numbers that the NGS uses but doesn't publish except within a box score.

Still other RMs have neither.

 

The box score uses DDDMMSS.S format. Some items use only the DDDMM part of that format since they don't have as much accuracy and therefore don't deserve that much precision.

 

If you intend to use a box score azimuth for a difficult mark, I suggest using this site (click on "Declination", then click on "Compute your declination"), just in case you might working in an area where there's a large difference between magnetic North and True North since the box score's azimuths are in True North reference.

Edited May 23, 2005 by Black Dog Trackers

[+BuckBrooke]

Right. Well, I'm in Albuquerque, which is low enough latitude that the magnetic dip and the differences between true and magnetic north shouldn't be too much.

[+Black Dog Trackers]

10 degrees, same as here.

 

Here is a declination map from that site.

[evenfall]

Whoops!!!

 

Belay that.

 

BDT, While it is true that you are in the DC area and you show 10 degrees off true, Buck is in Albuquerque NM which is also 10 degrees off true, BUT! ( Big But! ) You are 10 degrees East of true and Buck is 10 degrees West. There is 20 degrees of Magnetic Declination between both of you comparatively.

 

Technically not the same as here. You guys may already know this, but there are some people who will not, in fact they will not know where the "here" referred to is, and there is danger in people taking info off the cuff and attempting to orienteer with it.

 

10 degrees difference over 100 feet of distance will take you to two different spots, and with each hundred feet those two places will get further and further apart. A person using a compass can get lost but good without using the proper declination for the locale they are in!

 

This site: http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/seg/geomag/jsp/Declination.jsp Will help you properly set your Compass to the proper declination to any Lat/Lon in the country. If you don't know, use the Zip code nearest to the location you need and it will center Declination on the coordinates for the post office.

 

We have seen many occasions where the RM's have been a tough find while trying to be as accurate as can be, 10 degrees can play with your head big time, you bet!

 

All the best,

 

Rob

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

In 1 mile the difference between 0*-2* is 183.726 feet of diffrence.

[+Black Dog Trackers]

evenfall -

 

Yes, I knew they were in opposite directions. I was just responding as to the magnitude of difference.

 

I have recommended that people use the website to find out what their declination is in my May 22 post.

[mloser]

Just find your location in TopoZone. The declination is at the bottom of the page.

[Z15]

fyi

 

If you want to type the ° (degree) symbol, hold down ALT and type 0176 (ALT 0176)

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

OK thankyou,

I always wondered.