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Cemetary Caching?


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I found a cemetary micro this weekend. It was in an old pioneer cemetary (although there were graves as recent as the 90's) along a nearby state highway. It was a wagon road in the 1800's, thus there are many pioneer cemetaries and historical monuments in the area. It was in good taste, a micro hidden in a hollow oak tree. It was near a concrete and rock double crypt-Which was particularly interesting, since it was half empty, and I have no idea how they will chisel those rocks out to get #2 in there.

 

IMHO I paid more respect to that cemetary than the neighbors who are driving by on golf carts. They've built almost completely around this site. It's lucky to get some attention, methinks..

 

GCHMT0

Edited by Marcie/Eric
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Here in Indiana, we have Indiana Spirit Quest (ISQ) and these are caches, mainly micros, placed in Cemetaries. There are over 200 of these ISQ's. In addition, I have personally sought and found several cemetary caches. I don't personally have a problem with them but....

 

There is a thread about a cache in Missouri where a person was upset because someone was in the cemetary at night looking for "buried" caches. The South Carolina issue seems to have to do with desecrating cemetaries. If we don't want bad press and we want our hobby to continue, we need to take another look at the philosophy for placing caches in Cemetaries. It may not be a good idea to do so at all. If grandpa is buried there and you have a bunch of strangers tromping around on his grave...well, people get very emotional about that. There is plenty of public land and park land out there.

 

I say let's stop approving cemetary caches. I, for one, won't miss them.

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Got off early and spent the afternoon at Arlington National Cemetery. And while I did not cache today out of respect for the many family members visiting on this Memorial Day I will most likely go back to find those caches as some will take me to corners of those hallowed grounds I would probably not find on my own. I just wish those chatting on their cell phones, yelling at their children, and walking in the areas marked “stay off the grass” would have shown the same respect. It’s not geocaching that is disrespectful, it is how individuals conduct themselves.

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Morbid as it may seem, I truly enjoy cemetery caches. In my little corner of the world, we have a lot of historic cemeteries, and I try to pay respect to each of the interred as I pass.

 

Besides that, they are normally pretty quiet and unoccupied (so to speak).

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I would hate to see cemetary caches restricted. The family and I have enjoyed the historic cemetaries that we never would have found if it were not for caches there.

 

Active cemetaries might be a different story. But in all reality us geocachers are probably some of the most respecting visitors that many cemetaries will get.

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My two favorite hobbies are genealogy and geocaching. Ocasionally these two hobbies intersect in a cemetery. Treating the cemetery and its long term residents with respect is the first priority. However I have seen some very tasteful geocaches in cemetery conditions. One example is the Chinese Cemetery multicache. There the seeker is guided to several points of interest within the cemetery but the final cache point and log book are located just outside the cemetery boundaries. Other cemeteries lend themselves well to virtual caches and often hold points of high interest for history buffs and genealogists.

- Escanaba

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...No one seems to be answering the questions though - should gc.com put rules on cemetary caches?  ...

You didn't propose any rules to comment on. As for SC it's too late for any rules that GC.com might make (and you have to sell all other listing sites on those rules) to have an impact.

 

I would not enjoy a cache directly on or too close to a grave. The cemetery caches that I have done have been neer a brooke, on the fence (magnetic on wought iron fence) and have been fine.

 

Having said that if a cache was meant to be there since the person interred is a geocacher then I don't really mind if they have the cache on the headstone or "too close". That's entirly because it's in accordance wiht the wishes of the person buried.

 

As a cache owner it's up to me to comply wiht the rules that my community has. GC.com rules are about listing my cache on GC.com.

 

i don't want my cache page to read.

 

Placed with permission of XXX

Permit good through YYY

Secondary permit from ZZZ

Agency approval on 987987

Police approval on 987978

OSHA approved on 87687678

Homeland security approved on 7652836

FBI Background Check passed on 9987239

The nearest sexual predator is 1.5 miles away accoring to a records search on 86876

 

On and this is a fun cache.

Perfect response.I never thought about it but this is right on target.

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When it comes to Geo caching in the cemetery, I'm all for it. When I die, I personally would love a Cache to be hidden right at my grave site. Not sure how many people will come to see me after I die that I did know. I might as well try and get as many people to come see me that I didn't know. I enjoy the attention.

 

Maybe the dead want some sort of attention at there grave site, good or bad. I know after I die the more things near my grave site the better. Weather it be a small rodent or some Geo cacher stomping over my grave site looking for his treasure. Please walk over my grave on your search. My soul will appreciate it.

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My first cache was in a cemetary. My wife, daughter & I visited "Mount Mora" (located at zip code 64485, I don't know how to link to the forum.) We had a great time & found this to be very interesting. We had driven by this cemetary for years & had no idea of its history. If it wasn't for Geocaching I doubt that we would have ever visited Mount Mora but we are glad that we did.

As others have said it should be left up to the individule whether or not to hide or seek a cache in a cemetary, not the government.

I have been contemplating submitting a cemetary cache myself. We have in our area many small & very old cemetaries, some dating back to the late 1700's. I have visited several of these even before I caught the geo bug, I enjoy it, I think others would also. I found 1 stone that said the person had aged 140. I have never felt that I was tromping around on graves.

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My first cache was in a cemetary. My wife, daughter & I visited "Mount Mora" (located at zip code 64485, I don't know how to link to the forum.) We had a great time & found this to be very interesting. We had driven by this cemetary for years & had no idea of its history. If it wasn't for Geocaching I doubt that we would have ever visited Mount Mora but we are glad that we did.

As others have said it should be left up to the individule whether or not to hide or seek a cache in a cemetary, not the government.

I have been contemplating submitting a cemetary cache myself. We have in our area many small & very old cemetaries, some dating back to the late 1700's. I have visited several of these even before I caught the geo bug, I enjoy it, I think others would also. I found 1 stone that said the person had aged 140. I have never felt that I was tromping around on graves.

How about the property owners? Do you think that the property owner ought to have some input in determining what uses are made of his property?

 

Just curious, what would have prevented you from visiting the Mount Mora cemetary?

Edited by Team cotati697
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Property owner’s permission?

 

If it is private property that is not open to the public then yes.

 

If it is a “private” cemetery that is open, even during specific times, to anyone who wishes to walk in then I feel that is “implied permission” and no further permission is needed. Now if it is a private cemetery open to the public, but has posted “No Geocaching” then that is another story, as the implied permission is limited. Similar to a public area (say a beach) stating “no dogs”.

 

As I have said before if I am allowed to walk into that cemetery without asking permission as long as I do not have a gps then I can go in with a gps without asking permission.

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The rules of this site require that permission is obtained before we place a cache on private property. Being allowed to enter private property for one purpose does not give us the right to do other things.

 

Last week I was visiting PA and there was a sign posted along the road next to a fishing stream "Private Property - Visitors welcome to fish" That does not give me the right to chop down trees, build a house or place a cache on this person's property just because they didn't specifically exclude these other activities. They're giving express permission to fish. That's all.

 

Likewise with a cemetary. You're alowed there to pay respect for the dead. If you start doing other things, you'll create the same problem they're having in SC where the state is now getting involved in regulating activities in cemeteries.

 

And once you open yourself to regulation in cemeteries, it's a short hop where offcials will start regulating parks, forests, woods and other places that are public where we do not curently have a problem hiding caches.

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My first cache was in a cemetary. My wife, daughter & I visited "Mount Mora" (located at zip code 64485, I don't know how to link to the forum.) We had a great time & found this to be very interesting. We had driven by this cemetary for years & had no idea of its history. If it wasn't for Geocaching I doubt that we would have ever visited Mount Mora but we are glad that we did.

As others have said it should be left up to the individule whether or not to hide or seek a cache in a cemetary, not the government.

I have been contemplating submitting a cemetary cache myself. We have in our area many small & very old cemetaries, some dating back to the late 1700's. I have visited several of these even before I caught the geo bug, I enjoy it, I think others would also. I found 1 stone that said the person had aged 140. I have never felt that I was tromping around on graves.

How about the property owners? Do you think that the property owner ought to have some input in determining what uses are made of his property?

 

Just curious, what would have prevented you from visiting the Mount Mora cemetary?

I like the old & small mostly unvisited cemetaires that are located in the rural areas. I didn't expect Mount Mora to be as old & as interesting as it is. Again I'm glad we went.

 

I agree, property owners should have all the input to what is done on their property.

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You're alowed there to pay respect for the dead.

Wow, I guess you learn something new every day. In my 43 years I never knew the only thing I was allowed to do in a cemetery was pay respects to the dead.

 

I bet there is a massive number of people who don't know that. How about if you adopt a nearby cemetery and start enforcing your notions.

 

Just make sure your health insurance is paid up as I suspect even some of the cemetery owners and managers will have something to say about it and maybe in a not so kind way.

Edited by CoyoteRed
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Likewise with a cemetary. You're alowed there to pay respect for the dead. If you start doing other things, you'll create the same problem they're having in SC where the state is now getting involved in regulating activities in cemeteries.

 

Tell that to the joggers, bird watchers, artists, geoenogist and a host of other people who use cemeteries for things other than paying respects to the dead.

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Tell that to the joggers, bird watchers, artists, geoenogist and a host of other people who use cemeteries for things other than paying respects to the dead.

My favorites are the dog walkers. I'm a bit of an old cemetary buff, and it amazes me the number of people who routinely walk their dogs in cemetaries. There's a reason you need to walk a dog, and it ain't nice on a grave.

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I just did a cache today that was in a cemetery, and I managed not to vandalize anything, or be disrespectful in any way.

 

The cache was pretty much right in the middle of the cemetary, about 2 feet from a headstone. Somehow I managed to find it, log it, and leave without knocking over any headstones, painting anything, destroying anything, or leaving any garbage.

 

Surely the families of those people wouldn't mind that I enjoyed an afternoon of caching that included me walking across some of their relatives. It's not like I did any harm.

 

Geocaching is cemeteries is like anything else. You can do it in a way that is harmless, or you can be a jerk and ruin it for everyone else.

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I just did a cache today that was in a cemetery, and I managed not to vandalize anything, or be disrespectful in any way.

 

The cache was pretty much right in the middle of the cemetary, about 2 feet from a headstone. Somehow I managed to find it, log it, and leave without knocking over any headstones, painting anything, destroying anything, or leaving any garbage.

 

Surely the families of those people wouldn't mind that I enjoyed an afternoon of caching that included me walking across some of their relatives. It's not like I did any harm.

 

Geocaching is cemeteries is like anything else. You can do it in a way that is harmless, or you can be a jerk and ruin it for everyone else.

And you of course have spoken to the family members. Are you kidding me.

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Last week I was visiting PA and there was a sign posted along the road next to a fishing stream "Private Property - Visitors welcome to fish"  That does not give me the right to chop down trees, build a house or place a cache on this person's property just because they didn't specifically exclude these other activities.  They're giving express permission to fish.  That's all.

The sign "Private Property" pretty much says "this is mine stay out" but with the added "visitors welcomed to fish" it says "I will let you in to fish even though this is mine but all you can do is fish".

 

What we are talking about is an area that invites people in everyday with no stipulations stated. (Greenlawn Cemetery Hours of operation 6 a.m. to 6 p.m.) If it is privately owned, but “open to the public” then we all can just stroll on in. Unless there is a sign that says “no dog walking” or “only family members allowed” it is open to the public to pretty much do anything that is not violating the law. Walking about with a gps reading headstones is not to my knowledge illegal so therefore a cemetery that is “open to the public” and has in no way stated any limitations to it access, is available to me and my gps.

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Last week I was visiting PA and there was a sign posted along the road next to a fishing stream "Private Property - Visitors welcome to fish"  That does not give me the right to chop down trees, build a house or place a cache on this person's property just because they didn't specifically exclude these other activities.  They're giving express permission to fish.  That's all.

The sign "Private Property" pretty much says "this is mine stay out" but with the added "visitors welcomed to fish" it says "I will let you in to fish even though this is mine but all you can do is fish".

 

What we are talking about is an area that invites people in everyday with no stipulations stated. (Greenlawn Cemetery Hours of operation 6 a.m. to 6 p.m.) If it is privately owned, but “open to the public” then we all can just stroll on in. Unless there is a sign that says “no dog walking” or “only family members allowed” it is open to the public to pretty much do anything that is not violating the law. Walking about with a gps reading headstones is not to my knowledge illegal so therefore a cemetery that is “open to the public” and has in no way stated any limitations to it access, is available to me and my gps.

You're kidding......right?

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And you of course have spoken to the family members. Are you kidding me.

No, I didn't speak to the families. But why would they care? Someone has to mow the grass, so people must walk over them all the time.

You know what? I am sooooooo embarrassed. I just now realized that the topic of debate was whether or not people should be prevented from walking over grave sites. My appologies, you are of course quite correct in your analysis. Thank you.

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You know what? I am sooooooo embarrassed. I just now realized that the topic of debate was whether or not people should be prevented from walking over grave sites. My appologies, you are of course quite correct in your analysis. Thank you.

Well, the debate you started with me apparently was. You said,

 

And you of course have spoken to the family members. Are you kidding me.

 

And the only thing I'd mentioned about family members was,

 

Surely the families of those people wouldn't mind that I enjoyed an afternoon of caching that included me walking across some of their relatives.

 

So what else can I assume you meant?

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Last week I was visiting PA and there was a sign posted along the road next to a fishing stream "Private Property - Visitors welcome to fish"  That does not give me the right to chop down trees, build a house or place a cache on this person's property just because they didn't specifically exclude these other activities.  They're giving express permission to fish.  That's all.

The sign "Private Property" pretty much says "this is mine stay out" but with the added "visitors welcomed to fish" it says "I will let you in to fish even though this is mine but all you can do is fish".

 

What we are talking about is an area that invites people in everyday with no stipulations stated. (Greenlawn Cemetery Hours of operation 6 a.m. to 6 p.m.) If it is privately owned, but “open to the public” then we all can just stroll on in. Unless there is a sign that says “no dog walking” or “only family members allowed” it is open to the public to pretty much do anything that is not violating the law. Walking about with a gps reading headstones is not to my knowledge illegal so therefore a cemetery that is “open to the public” and has in no way stated any limitations to it access, is available to me and my gps.

You're kidding......right?

Not really. In so many words he said those Cemeteries that are open to the public, go on in and enjoy. That we are supposed to obey the law is implied in society. That's exacltly how it should be.

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Have to stick my two cents' worth into this discussion: ;)

 

Many of the so-called "overgrown" cemeteries in the Midwest are that way because they are the only non-plowed prairies left in the area.

 

When I was at Purdue, for instance, I went on several field trips to these cemeteries to view native plants. Now that my family geocaches, it's a pleasure to return to these places and teach my children about the plants and history found there.

 

I find it thought-provoking that we place such reverential significance upon anything to do with death. A friend and I are interested in photographs of the dead (cf. "Harlam Book of the Dead") and have leaned much about how American society's views of death and dead bodies have changed. Historically, before advancements in medical and mortuary science, people died at home, their bodies were washed and dressed on the kitchen table, and laid out for a "showing" in the parlor before being buried in the local cemetery or out in the back-40. At the turn of the 20th century when society became much more urban-based, dead bodies were taken to funeral homes and death/mourning practices became more elaborate (not counting Victorian mourning practices, which is another dissertation topic in its own right). Bodies were now embalmed and surrounded by masses of flowers; funerary ceremonies, be they in a funeral home chapel, a church, or at the gravesite, became much more elaborate.

 

We're now so far removed from death, as it were--no more going out and killing own meat for dinner or witnessing the death of a family member, except in extreme circumstances (before you flame me, been there, done both)--that doing anything other than "paying our respects" in a cemetery is like desecrating the proverbial sacred cow. And how unfortunate for us all. Death is a part of living and by keeping the living insulated from the dead, we only increase the sacred cow-ness of that part of life's cycle.

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I thought it would be interesting to see what kind of rules exist at cemeteris. So from a Google search on "cemetery rules" I got this one from Minnesota. I won't add my interpretation but let it stand on its own.

 

http://www.cpinternet.com/~canosia/cemeteryrules.htm#7

 

Section 7 Rules top of page

 

All persons are reminded that the grounds are sacred. The cemetery is devoted to the burial of the dead and that provisions and penalties of the law, as provided by Minnesota Statute will be strictly enforced. All well-disposed persons will confer a favor by informing the board of any breach of proper decorum that may come under their notice. The object of these rules is to have grounds that will be easily cared for and will not pose a problem or danger to those that will be working or helping at any time. With everyone's help and cooperation, this will remain a beautiful area.

 

No person shall be permitted to use profane or foul language, or in any way disturb the quiet and good order of the cemetery.

 

All persons are prohibited to hunt, feed or disturb fowl or other animals at the cemetery.

 

No person or persons other than those appointed by the cemetery shall be permitted to bring or carry firearms on the grounds. Military guards of honor and law enforcement agencies are authorized when in the charge of an officer and during a military service are excluded from this prohibition.

 

The Cemetery Board and their agents have the authority to enter upon any lot or plot to remove anything objectionable that may have been placed there contrary to the rules and regulations of said board.

 

The Cemetery Board and its agent may also trim or remove any dead, damaged, unsightly or overgrown trees, shrubs, vine, flowers, plants.

 

No person shall be permitted to enter or leave the cemetery, except by public access.

 

Speeds of over 10 MPH will not be permitted. No person shall ride or drive upon the lawns or grounds other than on the designated road. Persons within the cemetery are asked to use the roads, and walkways provided. All-terrain and other recreational vehicles are not allowed on the cemetery grounds.

 

Persons visiting the cemetery are asked to use the roads and walkways provided.

 

No enclosures of any kind, e.g., fence coping, hedge, or ditch shall be permitted around any grave or lot or plot.

 

Grave mounds will not be allowed. No lot area will be raised above the established grade of the land. No rocks, bark, chips, statues, bird baths, benches, etc. shall be permitted on grave sites and will be removed and disposed of without prior notice.

 

If any memorial or any structure whatsoever or any inscription placed on it, shall be determined offensive, the town board shall have the right, and their duty to enter upon the site and remove it. Improper or offensive language will be removed at owners’ expense.

 

A family member and Cemetery Board Members before burial must locate gravesites. Family or funeral directors are to contact a board member to mark the sites for digging of the grave and stone or monument placement.

 

All burials will be made in a permanent steel, concrete, or fiberglass outside container vault as required by the State of Minnesota. No burial will take place until all laws regarding burials by the State of Minnesota are complied with.

 

Dogs and pets are permitted on the grounds only if properly secured and or leashed.

 

No drugs or alcohol consumption is permitted.

 

No boxes, shells, toys, sprinkling cans, receptacles or similar articles are permitted on any gravesite, plot or tree.

 

The cemetery is not responsible for theft or damage to anything placed on sites or grounds.

 

No wooden or cast iron benches are allowed, nor are wooden or wire trellises. No digging of holes to plant flowers or to hold flowerpots and other containers is permitted. No glass, clay or other easily breakable containers are allowed and will be removed immediately. No arrangements secured with wire or wire objects of any kind will be permitted.

 

Flowers And Plants

 

Live or artificial flowers and plants are allowed on gravesites from May 20th to September 15th, as long as they are in regulation cemetery baskets or vases.

 

Planters will be allowed as long as they are not glass, ceramic or clay. They must be easily moved for the mower, not light enough to blow away in a windstorm.

 

No planter, box, basket or vase can weigh over 20 pounds. If found in violation, they will be removed without notice.

 

Funeral bouquets of flowers will be allowed for funerals and will be removed as they become unsightly or the next time the grounds are mowed.

 

All baskets, planters, vases, etc. will be removed by Sept. 15th, if not removed then; they will be removed at fall clean up, and disposed of after two weeks.

 

Flowers, plants, trees, shrubs, etc. will only be planted by the board, any others found will be removed.

 

Planting on gravesite is strictly prohibited.

 

Dirt and grass seed may be planted as needed. Sod has not been found to work well because of soil conditions and lack of water.

 

The general care of the cemetery grounds will be up to the Cemetery Board.

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I'm starting to think we should just have a general "Cemetery Angst" topic pinned at the top of these forums.

 

I've seen plenty of tastefully and respectfully hidden caches that take you to some very neat spots. It would be a shame to think of such beautiful and serene places could only be used by those too dead to truly enjoy them.

 

As for me...I'm going to ask that my ashes be placed in an ammo can in the woods. ;)

Thanks for summing this up nicely! Tasteful will alway be a matter of opinion, and opinions vary widely. Common sense dictates that caches shouldn't be near the leading edge of an active cemetary, but some of the best caches I have done so far have been in/near cemetaries. If you live near me, try these as examples of this:

 

GCJMHE

 

GCGD0E

 

GCJZ34

 

The first is right above a grave marker in a historic cemetary! I can't say anymore w/o spoiling it, except that it is probably my favorite cache to date!

 

It can be done.

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I thought it would be interesting to see what kind of rules exist at cemeteris.....

Thanks for that summary.

 

The bulk of the rules relate to the ongoing care and maintenance of the cemetery.

The rules conflict with Shoshone memorials I have seen. Not to mention how I might choose to honor a friend or family who had passed. I find this offensive.

The rule about using the walkways is interesting it seems to imply you can't kneel or even stand before the gravesite of anyone who you may choose to pay your respects too. I find this shortsighted and insulting to create a rule that has to be ignored to show reverence.

Funeral Bouquets are removed when they mow (as it's convenient to them) and doesn't seem to imply they will let them stay so long as they are aesthetic and serving their purpose. I find this disrespectful to the families that placed them.

 

They allow live flowers but prohibit planting them. A rule that I would have broken in honoring my family when we planted flowers near their graves so they would last more than 3 days in the summer sun.

 

As is often the case when faced with the daily drudge of running something on behalf of the public, some of the needs of that public have been forgotten in making the job of maintaining that cemetery easier for themselves. I would hope there are better examples out there. Cemeteries do not exist for the ease of maintenance but for the people and families who patronize them and who inter those who have passed.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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I thought it would be interesting to see what kind of rules exist at cemeteris.

So one place has a bunch of rules so that means every place should have a similar set of rules? Please!

 

Many of the cemeteries that were the focus of the brouhaha in SC were overgrown and scarcely cared for--the antithesis of the typical, manicured, perpetual care cemetery. I wonder how far anyone would get if they tried to pass such a set of rules down around Beaufort way. If you think some of these folks were against geocaching, just wait until you try to drop this on their lap.

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In response to Alan2's summary of a cemetery's policies:

 

Although I appreciate and understand the reasons for rules to maintain respect, I agree with RK and CR concerning excessive policies. My guess is that the directors are led to be more lenient in reality to cooperate with families. Otherwise, people would consistently choose other cemeteries in order to have a place to express their grief.

 

Example: "No boxes, shells, toys, sprinkling cans, receptacles or similar articles are permitted on any gravesite, plot or tree." I've been to some extremely well maintained cemeteries over the past few years and I can't imagine strict enforcement of this policy if the item is obviously related to the person buried there, especially a small toy (like a stuffed animal) on a child's grave. I'm guessing they're much quicker to enforce the policy if the item is an obstruction, damaged, or unsightly.

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In response to Alan2's summary of a cemetery's policies:

 

Although I appreciate and understand the reasons for rules to maintain respect, I agree with RK and CR concerning excessive policies. My guess is that the directors are led to be more lenient in reality to cooperate with families. Otherwise, people would consistently choose other cemeteries in order to have a place to express their grief.

 

Example: "No boxes, shells, toys, sprinkling cans, receptacles or similar articles are permitted on any gravesite, plot or tree." I've been to some extremely well maintained cemeteries over the past few years and I can't imagine strict enforcement of this policy if the item is obviously related to the person buried there, especially a small toy (like a stuffed animal) on a child's grave. I'm guessing they're much quicker to enforce the policy if the item is an obstruction, damaged, or unsightly.

Look, let's make it real simple. You get the cemetary owner's permission to place a cache, any type of cache, then place the freaking thing. Just remember that the property owner, upon recieving sufficient complaints just might have the gonads at some future date, to request that you move or remove it. As a matter of fact, the property owner might even request such radical action just because he wants to. And the property owner does not need some 'policy list' in order to do so. He might have such a list but is in no way limited by it, his own creation. It is very unlikely that a property owner by allowing a cache to be placed on one day is some how granting perpetual license to continue hosting the cache until the end of time. Crimminie! Now as far as joggers go, it is very unlikely that they could ever behave in a way that would raise the ire of cemetary owners or the relatives and friends of those who permanently reside therein.

Edited by Team cotati697
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Look, let's make it real simple. You get the cemetary owner's permission to place a cache, any type of cache, then place the freaking thing. Just remember that the property owner, upon recieving sufficient complaints just might have the gonads at some future date, to request that you move or remove it. As a matter of fact, the property owner might even request such radical action just because he wants to. And the property owner does not need some 'policy list' in order to do so. He might have such a list but is in no way limited by it, his own creation. It is very unlikely that a property owner by allowing a cache to be placed on one day is some how granting perpetual license to continue hosting the cache until the end of time. Crimminie! Now as far as joggers go, it is very unlikely that they could ever behave in a way that would raise the ire of cemetary owners or the relatives and friends of those who permanently reside therein.

I think permission's been at the heart of this debate from the beginning...it's not our place to determine if it's "appropriate" to place a cache if the owner of the property is ok with it and it's within the guidelines of the site.

 

I would like to avoid the sweeping generalizations that other participants (joggers) could NEVER do anything to upset cemetery visitors.

 

If I'm in the middle of laying old uncle Zeke to rest and a jogger comes jogging by on the pathway next to his headstone blasting their tunes on a ipod, I probably wouldn't appreciate it.

 

And yes, I know this is a contrived situation, but so is the thinking that geocachers will automatically be a problem by visiting cemeteries.

Edited by KoosKoos
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In response to Alan2's summary of a cemetery's policies:

 

Although I appreciate and understand the reasons for rules to maintain respect, I agree with RK and CR concerning excessive policies. My guess is that the directors are led to be more lenient in reality to cooperate with families. Otherwise, people would consistently choose other cemeteries in order to have a place to express their grief.

 

Example: "No boxes, shells, toys, sprinkling cans, receptacles or similar articles are permitted on any gravesite, plot or tree." I've been to some extremely well maintained cemeteries over the past few years and I can't imagine strict enforcement of this policy if the item is obviously related to the person buried there, especially a small toy (like a stuffed animal) on a child's grave. I'm guessing they're much quicker to enforce the policy if the item is an obstruction, damaged, or unsightly.

Look, let's make it real simple. You get the cemetary owner's permission to place a cache, any type of cache, then place the freaking thing. Just remember that the property owner, upon recieving sufficient complaints just might have the gonads at some future date, to request that you move or remove it. As a matter of fact, the property owner might even request such radical action just because he wants to. And the property owner does not need some 'policy list' in order to do so. He might have such a list but is in no way limited by it, his own creation. It is very unlikely that a property owner by allowing a cache to be placed on one day is some how granting perpetual license to continue hosting the cache until the end of time. Crimminie! Now as far as joggers go, it is very unlikely that they could ever behave in a way that would raise the ire of cemetary owners or the relatives and friends of those who permanently reside therein.

I wasn't specifically referring to placing caches, so I was probably off-topic (my fault), leading to the misinterpretation of my post. I always think one should get permssion. However, I do think you should be able to consider and use your own family's plot as your own property. I've even seen this done with a cache in a respectful way, though I realize that's a matter of opinion. Public-access cemeteries with permission for purposes other than paying respects (jogging, dog walking, bird-watching, caching, etc.) appears to be the greater debate.

 

I'll probably avoid this thread unless an actual discussion is renewed--too much condescension/emotion with phrases like "Let's make it real simple" and "place the freaking thing." A profitable debate has been replaced by I'm right, you're wrong.

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The rule about using the walkways is interesting it seems to imply you can't kneel or even stand before the gravesite of anyone who you may choose to pay your respects too. I find this shortsighted and insulting to create a rule that has to be ignored to show reverence.

The rule to use walkways is not to prevent you from kneeling at the gravesite but rather to prevent social trails being created over the graves of others.

 

This is the "rule" that turned me against cemetery caching. I was hunting the gravesite of Babe Ruth. It was a virtual. It was during the winter and there was 6" of snow. In trying to find his headstone, I must of walked over a dozen graves getting there because I couldn't see the walkways and didn't know where his grave was exactly. I just didn't feel right after I was done. How would I have felt I asked myself if someone was playing a game over the heads of my dead relatives? Also, it wasn't about paying respect to Babe Ruth because he was some sort of hero of mine (you didn't know it was his grave until you got there). I was there on someone else holy ground playing a game so I could get another "point".

 

Today, I went to a special one-year prayer service at the grave of my wife's, cousin's sister. Prayers were given. There was another burial going on about 75 feet away. I didn't see any joggers, bird watchers, bicylists, and I think everyone would have been pretty upset if a couple of "strangers" started to play with a frisbee or were engaged in caching or other games.

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I was there on someone else holy ground playing a game so I could get another "point".

There you go. That is probably the major difference between the two camps. You're into it for the "point." Of course you should feel guilty if that's the only thing you're into it for.

 

Me, I'm into caching because it really interests me to see what others are so willing to show me. It has nothing to do with a "point." Nothing. Therefor it's not a "game" for us. It's a pastime little different than many folk's "Sunday drive." We're just out seeing the sights and I don't see anything wrong with that.

 

One camp doesn't see anything wrong with YAWMM (Yet Another Wal-Mart Micro) that shows the visitors nothing more than, well, yet another Wal-mart parking lot.

 

The other doesn't see anything wrong with showing someone something interesting no matter where it is as long as it's legal and proper to be there.

 

So, the hang up is probably because your in it for the wrong reason, maybe?

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"..joggers, bird watchers, artists, "...I wonder why the good people of the Great State of South Carolina have chosen to ignore these groups and to pick on the geocachers?

Because we are an easy target. Dog walkers, historians and other non mourning users of cemeteries don't post notice that they are there on the Internet.

 

I was going to say bird watchers too, but they have been known to report sitings of rare birds on the Inernet and have dozens, if not hundreds of other birders descend on the area to add the bird to their life list.

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"..joggers, bird watchers, artists, "...I wonder why the good people of the Great State of South Carolina have chosen to ignore these groups and to pick on the geocachers?

Because we are an easy target. Dog walkers, historians and other non mourning users of cemeteries don't post notice that they are there on the Internet.

 

I was going to say bird watchers too, but they have been known to report sitings of rare birds on the Inernet and have dozens, if not hundreds of other birders descend on the area to add the bird to their life list.

The things that cemetary owners and state legislators do in their spare time. Astounding. There must be a bounty. :)

Edited by Team cotati697
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I was there on someone else holy ground playing a game so I could get another "point".

There you go. That is probably the major difference between the two camps. You're into it for the "point." Of course you should feel guilty if that's the only thing you're into it for.

 

Me, I'm into caching because it really interests me to see what others are so willing to show me. It has nothing to do with a "point." Nothing. Therefor it's not a "game" for us. It's a pastime little different than many folk's "Sunday drive." We're just out seeing the sights and I don't see anything wrong with that.

I think you missed my "point". Since I didn't know it was Babe Ruth's grave I was visiting beforehand (in an active, denominational and private cemetery), I certainly wasn't there to say a prayer for his soul. So whether I was counting points or not, I was playing a game. And this is what upsets some people. My draggiing my feet over loads of graves is disrespectful to the dead and their families. You don't have to agree with this viewpoint. That's OK. But since this cemetery is private, it's up to the owners to fix rules and policies, not cachers or other outsiders.

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So whether I was counting points or not, I was playing a game. And this is what upsets some people. My draggiing my feet...

No, I get your point.

 

Because you were jack***, every geocacher is a jack***. That's your point.

 

I also agree with your view point that it was disrespectful what you did. Shame on you. I guess it helps assuage your guilt by projecting the impropriety over the whole activity in cemeteries. "Because I can't do it right, no one can do it right."

 

You know, when you saw that you couldn't navigate the cemetery properly when the snow was on the ground, why didn't you turn around and leave? If you showed up and there was a funeral in progress would you have tried to complete the hunt anyway? Do you disregard No Trespassing signs? Do you disregard posted hours of authorized entry? You weren't thinking. That doesn't mean everyone is as thoughtless as you were.

 

This is exactly what I mean when Groundspeak creates rules for the lowest common denominator. This is exactly the reason The Creed was created. To many people just can't think. "Oh, why do we need a code? It's all common sense. You just need to think." Thanks, Alan2, for making my point.

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Thanks for the ad hominem attacks and keeping the discussion on a high level.

Then explain to me how I'm wrong. Did you or did you not say how bad you felt after you did it?

 

Apparently, you changed your opinion afterwards, because of the way you felt. Otherwise, you thought it wrong before hand and you did it anyway. Neither reflects positively on you.

 

So, who introduced the personal aspect into the argument first?

 

Now, address the rest of that post.

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There you go. That is probably the major difference between the two camps. You're into it for the "point." Of course you should feel guilty if that's the only thing you're into it for.

 

Me, I'm into caching because it really interests me to see what others are so willing to show me. It has nothing to do with a "point." Nothing. Therefor it's not a "game" for us. It's a pastime little different than many folk's "Sunday drive." We're just out seeing the sights and I don't see anything wrong with that.

 

I think you might have nailed it CR. I can see why people who look at geocaching chiefly as a game where they rack up points for finds might feel a bit of guilt about doing it in a cemetery.

 

I can also see why people who look at geocaching primarily as an opportunity to learn a little about nature and history and to explore the world around them have no problem with it.

 

Its probably why both sides are talking, but neither is hearing.

 

Apparently, you changed your opinion afterwards, because of the way you felt. Otherwise, you thought it wrong before hand and you did it anyway. Neither reflects positively on you.

 

He was also dragging his feet over graves. Not very nice. When I'm in a cemetery I step carefully.

Edited by briansnat
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So, the hang up is probably because your in it for the wrong reason, maybe?

Wow, you really do amaze me sometimes with your attitude. Who are you to say that you're the one playing the game the right way, and finding caches for the right reasons, and people that play differently than you are wrong?

 

And correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you have at least one cemetery cache before this whole issue with the SC bill came up? You archived your caches and now have the nerve to tell people that caching in a cemetery is something they should feel bad about.

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And correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you have at least one cemetery cache before this whole issue with the SC bill came up? You archived your caches and now have the nerve to tell people that caching in a cemetery is something they should feel bad about.

 

Ummmmm, CR has been one of the most vocal advocates FOR caches in cemeteries.

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If not carefully done it can be very dis-respectful - especially if the cemetary has recent occupants and mourner. I hate the idea of playing games where the strong feeling of survivors might be at risk. For old historical remote stuff - I am not a concerned but still believe the cache should be at a distance. Then if you want to reveiw what is there then do so without a GPS in your hand. If no one is around I don't care what goes on. I mourners are present I would feel awful tell them we are playing games here to run our numbers up.

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