Geocaching And Methamphetamine Awareness

May 16, 2005

Since many of us spend time in the great outdoors and in secluded woods endulging our vices, and since the woods are prime areas for meth cooks to dump their by products, does anyone see any merit in pulling together information for cachers on what they need to know to stay safe? I am looking for feedback before I spend time culling my meth info and tayloring it to cachers. Thoughts?

2.6k · May 16, 2005

Huh. I thought this was going to be advice on how to complete a really, really successful numbers run.

2k · May 16, 2005

I think thats a good idea.

We used to go to Jasper, Arkansas to visit family. The first time we went there you could smell the lab, the wind was blowing the smell down into town. That lab was busted while we were there, but that smell was awful!

May 16, 2005

...culling my meth info and tayloring it to cachers...

There's a joke here, I'm sure of it....

Ok, ok, serious subject...

I think it'd be a good idea to have a large web site dedicated to the hazards we can encounter in the great outdoors. After all, we, like other groups, look for secluded places in remote areas to do our thing. That suits the needs of several groups.

I'm sure if I saw 200 empty Sudafed boxes, I'd grab my kids and find a way out of there. Beyond that, what else is there to avoid?

1k · May 16, 2005

Sure--I'll gladly add it to the ever-growing list of offbeat knowledge that I have acquired peripheral to geocaching.

May 16, 2005

Huh. I thought this was going to be advice on how to complete a really, really successful numbers run.

Yeah, a little disappointing, huh?

May 16, 2005

Since there is already some interest and the question what else to avoid besides 200 Sudafed boxes, here is a bit more info. Cooking Meth produces about 7 pounds of hazardous waste for every pound of meth cooked. HazMat by products include anhydrous ammonia, hydrochloric acid, lye, lithium, iodine, phosphorus, and other nasty chemicals. The liquids and salts are routinely dumped in wooded areas that are obscured. The nasty smell mentioned is the result of a cook. So, continuing to seek feedback. Interest in more info? (On what to look out for, not how to cook!)

May 16, 2005

Beyond that, what else is there to avoid?

trash bags, especially if you smell ammonia. Tennessee has a pretty good website called MethFreeTN

May 16, 2005

Hmm.. I like the idea of a giant website ...

Has anyone here heard of a wiki? It's a type of website for storing data. The idea is that articles are written and edited by the very users of the site. It's a great way to get information written quickly and kept up to date by volunteers.

The best example of a wiki is Wikipedia, the bestest encyclopedia ever. Vandalism is kept in check by all users, who can revert a page back to its previous condition at any time.

It's also often used for open source software user manuals.

This would sort of be a user manual for geocachers, including articles like "How to spot a meth lab" and "What to do if a bear attacks" and "What types of containers do people use". and "How to hide a cache". Such a thing would be much easier to search than the forums.

Luna

May 16, 2005

Interesting, but I don't know how useful.

11.3k · May 16, 2005

Hmm.. I like the idea of a giant website ...

Has anyone here heard of a wiki? It's a type of website for storing data. The idea is that articles are written and edited by the very users of the site. It's a great way to get information written quickly and kept up to date by volunteers.

The best example of a wiki is Wikipedia, the bestest encyclopedia ever. Vandalism is kept in check by all users, who can revert a page back to its previous condition at any time.

It's also often used for open source software user manuals.

This would sort of be a user manual for geocachers, including articles like "How to spot a meth lab" and "What to do if a bear attacks" and "What types of containers do people use". and "How to hide a cache". Such a thing would be much easier to search than the forums.

Luna

That is a very interesting idea.

There is a wiki site for the Opera browser.

I have no idea how such a site could be set up and maintained for Geocaching however . . .

24.7k · May 16, 2005

Yes, I've approached a local ISP officer about a class for geocachers. He normally teachers terrism. We discussed a few other angles to replace part of his main classes teachings (geocachers don't need the full scoop on terrorism, and we have other issues like tripping across math lab dump sites).

We only need to invent the wheel once. If you finish yours first then it would be nice if we could use it to incorporate into this class we are working on, and vice versa.

May 16, 2005

I have no idea how such a site could be set up and maintained for Geocaching however . . .

Well I'm tempted to volunteer, but I already have enough on my plate. :/ Still, it's tempting

I set up a wiki for my own personal use last fall. It's not too difficult. Wouldn't cost terribly much, either. Domain registration for $7 or so, hosting for about $5-10 a month. The code for MediaWiki is open source and free to use. You just install it and get it linked, manage it now and then, and let people fill it up.

Luna

May 17, 2005

It sounds like something that would link well with the GeoCacher University Website. Good plan.

Yes, more info on what to be aware of would be nice. We've found some uh...Interesting places while just out for a walk in the woods let alone Caching! One was a giant plastic tent complete with a woodstove, sleeping bags, cooking area, etc.! We were glad no one was there as we crept past.

1k · May 17, 2005

I think it'd be a good idea to have a large web site dedicated to the hazards we can encounter in the great outdoors. After all, we, like other groups, look for secluded places in remote areas to do our thing. That suits the needs of several groups.

An example of a quick, easy way to set this up would be simply creating a Yahoo group. One can create databases, send group messages, upload photos, etc.

Another way is to buy a domain name and web hosting and actually create a website. This requires more time and support to build and maintain.

I kind of like continuing to share information here in the Groundspeak forums. Its quick, easy, searchable, and its already here.

If someone DOES want to create a separate website devoted solely to the possible dangers one may encounter while geocaching, I'd volunteer to help.

:lol:

May 17, 2005

Since there is already some interest and the question what else to avoid besides 200 Sudafed boxes, here is a bit more info. Cooking Meth produces about 7 pounds of hazardous waste for every pound of meth cooked. HazMat by products include anhydrous ammonia, hydrochloric acid, lye, lithium, iodine, phosphorus, and other nasty chemicals. The liquids and salts are routinely dumped in wooded areas that are obscured. The nasty smell mentioned is the result of a cook. So, continuing to seek feedback. Interest in more info? (On what to look out for, not how to cook!)

An important fact being left out is what to watch for.

The dump from a meth cook can look like a prime CITO sight. Waste is stored/dumped in pop bottles, propane cylinders, picnic coolers, and various other seemingly benign objects. The residue is caustic, and can eat through the seals & release into the air when disturbed. A number of well-meaning people have been permanently impaired by picking up a container that burst.

Though I have yet to hear of it actually happening, they are concerned about people being injured when doing roadside clean-up, as mobile labs have become increasingly widespread. The product is done in random sites, the waste dumped out the window wherever. Therefore, the hazard isn't just in remote locales.

How do you know whats safe then to CITO ? No real answer - use extreme caution though.

May 17, 2005

That is sort of my point. I think that this is one of those areas we are not talking about. I am an avid cacher and am also involved with developing a DEC protocol in my community (Drug Endangered Child) and am learning more and more, and accessing knowledgable sources from the state and federal level.

Given the feed back I have received, I will pursue some way of setting a page for others to get at including pictures, what to do if... etc. Please feel free to keep the thread going, and of course, anyone willing to lend a hand, please email. And of course, don't let this stop you. As the user above noted, use caution and common sense when finding stuff in the woods, CITO or not...

2.7k · May 17, 2005

Captain Chaoss Posted on May 16 2005, 08:40 PM

The dump from a meth cook can look like a prime CITO sight.

How do you know whats safe then to CITO ?

Recent Discussion About This In the CITO Forum

May 17, 2005

Hmm.. I like the idea of a giant website ...

Has anyone here heard of a wiki? It's a type of website for storing data. The idea is that articles are written and edited by the very users of the site. It's a great way to get information written quickly and kept up to date by volunteers.

The best example of a wiki is Wikipedia, the bestest encyclopedia ever. Vandalism is kept in check by all users, who can revert a page back to its previous condition at any time.

It's also often used for open source software user manuals.

This would sort of be a user manual for geocachers, including articles like "How to spot a meth lab" and "What to do if a bear attacks" and "What types of containers do people use". and "How to hide a cache". Such a thing would be much easier to search than the forums.

Luna

I've seen one of these for a non related field and was disgusted with the mis information being spouted as correct. I had to leave as there was no way for me to fix ALL the misconceptions lol.

That could probably go for "what to do if you encounter a bear" too. It depends on where you are as far as part of the countr/world, what type of bear, etc. And if I join one more yahoo group, my computer will explode.

May 17, 2005

I've seen one of these for a non related field and was disgusted with the mis information being spouted as correct. I had to leave as there was no way for me to fix ALL the misconceptions lol.

That could probably go for "what to do if you encounter a bear" too. It depends on where you are as far as part of the countr/world, what type of bear, etc. And if I join one more yahoo group, my computer will explode.

That's too bad. I know Wikipedia has been wonderfully accurate and correct on the articles I've read where I knew the subject. It helps that they have hordes of pedantical computer geeks.

I've started this topic on its own thread, since it had meandered far off the topic of meth labs.

Luna

May 17, 2005

The safest thing to do if you discover a meth lab or the leftovers there of is to NOT TOUCH any of it. It is very toxic and there are trained people who will come in and clean up the site. Unfortunately the meth problem is everywhere and the people making this poison will dump it anywhere, the more remote the better.

Have a safe and fun summer.

3.5k · May 17, 2005

I've personally found two methlabs while caching and had them both reported to the authorities. In both cases I was able to go to the cache owner and had them lead the police to the location. I felt it was best if they got the chance to explain why their cache was there.

I've had several other instances where I found stuff that was suspicious, but wasn't really sure.

Our local group (L.E.G.S.) is considering inviting a police officer to come to one of our meetings and give us some information on what to look for and what to do. Everyone around here really sees the need for more information.

Bret

May 17, 2005

Cooking Meth produces about 7 pounds of hazardous waste for every pound of meth cooked. HazMat by products include anhydrous ammonia, hydrochloric acid, lye, lithium, iodine, phosphorus, and other nasty chemicals.

i hate people. dumping hazardous carp in the woods (or anywhere, really) is NOT COOL

thanks for the info, everyone... good to learn about this stuff.

May 18, 2005

I have a start. I think by cutting and pasting this in your address bar, it will get you to the geocache meth info page. Lets try and see.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cacheinfo/join

Thanks for all the feedback.

Kent

May 18, 2005

Since many of us spend time in the great outdoors and in secluded woods endulging our vices, and since the woods are prime areas for meth cooks to dump their by products, does anyone see any merit in pulling together information for cachers on what they need to know to stay safe? I am looking for feedback before I spend time culling my meth info and tayloring it to cachers. Thoughts?

My personal opinion is you are over thinking the problem and have gotten "Hyper Sensitive Geocacher Disease." I have observed that some small percentage of geocachers fall into the trap of worying too much and "following every rule in the book". I suggest you search for any evidence that any geocacher has been injured by discarded drug lab waste. Consider spending your time on more creative pursuits.

May 18, 2005

Cooking Meth produces about 7 pounds of hazardous waste for every pound of meth cooked. HazMat by products include anhydrous ammonia, hydrochloric acid, lye, lithium, iodine, phosphorus, and other nasty chemicals.

i hate people. dumping hazardous carp in the woods (or anywhere, really) is NOT COOL

thanks for the info, everyone... good to learn about this stuff.

Yea, that hazardous halibut sucks big time too.

May 18, 2005

JohnX- Thank you for your insightful acumen. However, the reality of where I live is that there were 56 clandestine labs raided between 2 surrounding counties in the last 6 months Where the waste from their labs is dumped in the parks and woods. My county has the 12th worst meth cook problem in the state of 72 counties and as part of my job I go into homes where meth is prevelent as well as where I am exposed to residuals. Now, I may be over thinking this, but for me, the geocachers in my area and in most of the rest of the country, this is a large problem and it is not hysteria to learn a little to avoid a lot of hassle. If you reread my post is is seeking whether people want info, not saying "DOn't go into the woods!!!!". I also hope that I don't have to say "Look, here is a time where a cacher was injured from a dump", and maybe, giving people information might in some small way, help that from happening. In the mean time, it is a huge problem here where I am and in many other places, with lots of people getting hurt. So, thanks for the post and insights, but with all due respect don't try to analyze me, my motives or my intentions, and when you see children burned by lye and acid, exposed to this crap and the violence associated with it on a regular basis, I assure you it is not something that is "overthought".

May 18, 2005

wow manwhatsthebigdeal.Ineededtogettoajob interviewinocalla. Isthatcoffee? ItoldmyuncleLarryI'dhavehismoney, butthenyouknowthekidcaughtthefluor somethingandhismomisdownatHooters. Whattime is it. IneedtofixthetvtokeeptheFBIfromspyingonme. What were we talking about?

Meth heads are danergous, irrational and well armed. The chemicals they use are very hazardous. Please avoid them both.

1.5k · May 18, 2005

Hmm.. I like the idea of a giant website ...

Has anyone here heard of a wiki? It's a type of website for storing data. The idea is that articles are written and edited by the very users of the site. It's a great way to get information written quickly and kept up to date by volunteers.

The best example of a wiki is Wikipedia, the bestest encyclopedia ever. Vandalism is kept in check by all users, who can revert a page back to its previous condition at any time.

It's also often used for open source software user manuals.

This would sort of be a user manual for geocachers, including articles like "How to spot a meth lab" and "What to do if a bear attacks" and "What types of containers do people use". and "How to hide a cache". Such a thing would be much easier to search than the forums.

Luna

That is a very interesting idea.

There is a wiki site for the Opera browser.

I have no idea how such a site could be set up and maintained for Geocaching however . . .

I have some webspace on a server that would support a wiki style engine and can set up a subdomain if needed. It could use a little extra traffic too

The Yahoo group thing is a good idea, but I think the compulsory registration would tend to make people shy away from it. If somebody wants to work on this and needs a place to put it, get in otuch with me and I may be able to help.

May 18, 2005

JohnX- Thank you for your insightful acumen. However, the reality of where I live is that there were 56 clandestine labs raided between 2 surrounding counties in the last 6 months Where the waste from their labs is dumped in the parks and woods. My county has the 12th worst meth cook problem in the state of 72 counties and as part of my job I go into homes where meth is prevelent as well as where I am exposed to residuals. Now, I may be over thinking this, but for me, the geocachers in my area and in most of the rest of the country, this is a large problem and it is not hysteria to learn a little to avoid a lot of hassle. If you reread my post is is seeking whether people want info, not saying "DOn't go into the woods!!!!". I also hope that I don't have to say "Look, here is a time where a cacher was injured from a dump", and maybe, giving people information might in some small way, help that from happening. In the mean time, it is a huge problem here where I am and in many other places, with lots of people getting hurt. So, thanks for the post and insights, but with all due respect don't try to analyze me, my motives or my intentions, and when you see children burned by lye and acid, exposed to this crap and the violence associated with it on a regular basis, I assure you it is not something that is "overthought".

I visit kent1915's neck of the woods several times a year as I have a lot of family there. I have even found some of his caches. I can tell you that meth labs are a very, very serious and scary problem there, and it is even worse in some surrounding states. Whatever kent1915 has to say about the subject, I am willing listen to ensure that my children and I stay as safe as possible when out caching. To suggest this is a non-issue until a geocacher gets hurts is plain foolishness.

May 18, 2005

Kent1915,

If you are willing to take the time to put this together, I am more than willing to add a page to the CITO site with information for cachers to remain safe.

May 18, 2005

For those of us who may be completely unaware of this threat (I lived in the U.S. until 1999 and never heard of it) could you provide some more background on the extent? Does it happen everywhere in the U.S. or only near large urban areas? Some more data would be helpful.

1.5k · May 18, 2005

For those of us who may be completely unaware of this threat (I lived in the U.S. until 1999 and never heard of it) could you provide some more background on the extent? Does it happen everywhere in the U.S. or only near large urban areas? Some more data would be helpful.

Here is a Wikipedia article that discusses the problem in detail. It's a huge problem here in Tennessee and has become popular among rural populations, not just in urban areas. There have been increasing problems with people setting up labs in hotel rooms and in thr trunks of their cars; often people will drive to remote areas, make meth, and dump the highly hazardous waste products in remote locations. This is one reason cachers are concerned- there's no telling when you'll come across a site where someone has set up a lab and dumped their waste.

May 18, 2005

Here is a Wikipedia article that discusses the problem in detail.

Interesting article, but iI didn't find where it talked about the extent of the dumping problem. Has the dumping issue been in the standard press recently? Time, Newsweek, etc.?

May 19, 2005

...
Though I have yet to hear of it actually happening, they are concerned about people being injured when doing roadside clean-up, as mobile labs have become increasingly widespread. The product is done in random sites, the waste dumped out the window wherever. Therefore, the hazard isn't just in remote locales.

...

I have heard that in certain parts of Pennsylvania, they have put a stop to roadside cleanup and adopt-a-highway because of this very issue. Apparently it's as common to find a cooler roadside then deep in the woods. Besides chemical explosions (causing burns), inhaling the concentrated fumes can cause serious lung damage. I'm seriously hoping that this isn't as big of a problem as people are making it out to be, but you never know!

May 19, 2005

It might be a good idea to write an article on it and submit to the TOdays Cacher Magazine or even schedule an interview on the GeoRadio.org site.

1.4k · May 19, 2005

I think a BIG dose of common sense is called for here. If it looks like a POS and smells like a POS it is a POS. The temptation to touch, kick or pick up something can be overpowering at times. Cautiously look over the suspicious item(s) as mentioned if there is a strong smell, signs of dead or dying foliage leaved it alone. Anhydrous Ammonia is a deadly poison gas. Propane tanks (from gas grills) are some common containers used to carry the gas. A key indicator that Anhydrous Ammonia has been placed in the tank will be blue tarnish/staining around the brass valve. Plastic gas cans have also been used as “cookers,” sometimes there will be obvious signs that it has been used for this purpose. There may be tape around the spout, a hose attached to the spout and there may be kitty litter spilling from the container (used to trap other caustic/deadly gasses) Take a picture (if you have a camera), leave the area immediately and contact the local authorities, they have folks that are specially trained in dealing with these items. Another interesting point not mentioned is that “meth-heads” have on overpowering urge to collect and view pornographic material, it may be in and around their cooking area/home. “Meth-heads” are extremely paranoid and unpredictable. Starting this thread was a good idea, I take my kids with me when I go caching and it is hard enough to keep an eye on them. I would hate to see anyone get hurt trying to do a good deed.

Ian

May 19, 2005

Bogleman- thanks for the post. I have posted pics of dumps and cooks and clan labs on the yahoo link as well as info. As you noted, clan labs and cooks (I really do like the name Tweekers for 'em) love their porn, in fact around here the gold standard for processing labs is that the lab ain't processed until the porn and weapons are found. But as you point out, common sense is the safety measure. This thread was to get the topic going so people have the info to base the common sense on. Thanks for the help!

May 19, 2005

It might be a good idea to write an article on it and submit to the TOdays Cacher Magazine or even schedule an interview on the GeoRadio.org site.

im up but i dont know enough to do it alone, someone smart email me and we can talk about meth.

and here i never knew a geocaching radio show would turn into a drug show

---edit--- im the georadio guy

Edited May 19, 2005 by deltadawg

May 19, 2005

Kent1915,

If you are willing to take the time to put this together, I am more than willing to add a page to the CITO site with information for cachers to remain safe.

Just re-highlighting this offer from HYDEE, The Frogs right hand. Having a concise info blurb available through the CITO sight, in Todays Cacher, and the radio show are all excellent ideas.

This topic was approached once before in the forums, but was kind of squashed by too many people calling it a scare tactic.

Sorry to say folks, as a volunteer fireman in Pennsylvania, the problem is all too real. And the biggest problem is, that rural areas are the most affected due to the seclusion needed to cook up meth. The odor from the chems is supposed to be atrocious, so the tweekers are looking for unpopulated areas to cook and dump.

Our local law enforcement, school officials, and emergency personell have all had detailed presentations made available on the matter, and it is quite real. However, it doesn't mean hide in your house and never cache again, it means be aware and informed.

Kent, thanks for your efforts, I'll try to be of assistance if I can. The offers made here of others to help pass the info along to cachers should be taken advantage of.

Happy, safe caching to all.

May 20, 2005

Well I didn't read through all of the replies but I can tell you that living in one of the largest if not the largest meth producing areas in the contry and being new to geocaching, that we would appreciate some meth info. (not how to make it either! LOL)

May 20, 2005

You now have a place to make your writeup.

Cacheopedia

May 21, 2005

How do you know whats safe then to CITO ?

When you shoot bottle rockets at it and it doesn't explode

May 21, 2005

Thank you BigWhiteTruck. I'll see if I can get it there.

May 21, 2005

Here's a better link

Just click it and start typing away!

May 21, 2005

OOOoooooggg

I just spent 1 1/2 hours adding articles to the cacheopedia

Thanks for making a place to do that sort of thing

May 21, 2005

BigWhiteTruck-

I have added one article (I think) let me know if it shows up. How do I add pictures and powerpoint that also has info? Thanks for doing this.

Geocaching And Methamphetamine Awareness

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