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Trumper

Found An Interesting Benchmark...

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Howdy.

 

"I don't do benchmarks." :laughing:

 

I was out taking some pictures in a really old, deserted part of an abandoned US road. I found this off the roadway:

 

http://www.stanford.edu/~twiggins/benchmark/benchmark.jpg

 

I don't know if that's "interesting" to you benchmark folks or not, but I thought I'd post it here in case anyone wanted a look...and wants to puzzle out exactly where this is located....

 

I'll post the answer and pix of the area in a few days.

 

Good luck!

 

Edit: I'm a geocacher, not a benchmarker, so I don't know if this is possible...just thought someone might like a challenge....

Edited by Trumper

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Howdy Back,

 

"I don't do geocaches." :laughing:

 

But that is a Cadastral Survey Marker and it's data is available from BLM. Geocaching has nothing to do with those, they are not in their database. It was set in 1933, and is located in the State of California, in Township 20 North, Range 25 East, Section 28, and it is angle point 5 on the section border.

 

Puzzle = no puzzle. Puzzle solved.

 

Happy Geocaching.

 

Rob

Edited by evenfall

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Howdy Back,

 

"I don't do geocaches." :laughing:

 

But that is a Cadastral Survey Marker and it's data is available from BLM. Geocaching has nothing to do with those, they are not in their database.

 

Puzzle = no puzzle. Puzzle solved.

 

Happy Geocaching.

 

Rob

Howdy.

 

I didn't say it had something to do with geocaches....

 

I just posted the pic in case someone wanted to suss where it is located...

 

So I don't think the puzzle is solved; I just asked where is it?

 

Anyway, I'll post the location and co-ords later....

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Howdy Back,

 

Plenty of maps will lead a person right to it. Yup. It can be found without Coordinates, In fact Cadastral survey marks typically use the data stamped right on them to clarify their position.

 

It has nothing to do with benchmark hunting at geocaching either. This isn't a benchmark.

 

Anyway, Still not a puzzle. Puzzle solved.

 

Rob

Edited by evenfall

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evenfall -

 

If you re-read the original post here, you will find that the puzzle that Trumper posed is to figure out where the disk pictured is located. The puzzle is not to figure out what kind of disk it is. Perhaps the location itself is interesting.

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Howdy Back,

 

"I don't do geocaches."  :D

 

But that is a Cadastral Survey Marker and it's data is available from BLM. Geocaching has nothing to do with those, they are not in their database.

 

Puzzle = no puzzle.  Puzzle solved.

 

Happy Geocaching.

 

Rob

Howdy.

 

I didn't say it had something to do with geocaches....

 

I just posted the pic in case someone wanted to suss where it is located...

 

So I don't think the puzzle is solved; I just asked where is it?

 

Anyway, I'll post the location and co-ords later....

Trumper,

 

Don't write off all those section markers as not being in the databases. We have found several from the 1910 - 1920 time period that are in the database.

 

John

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BDT and all.

 

Relax, I read it fine. I am familiar with this sort of thing. It is something I deal with in return for wages and benefits. I explained where it is. I spelled it out in plain english. This IS the location of the Survey Marker, using the Cadastral method...

 

This Marker does not use Elevation Latitude or Longitude for it's Primary purposes. it is not Geodetic. It is part of the Public Land Survey System. (PLSS) It's primary mission is for use with determining the location of real property.

 

It is located in the State of California, in Township 20 North, Range 25 East, Section 28, and it is angle point 5 on the section border. I would also guess without looking at the map, that by noting the high numbers of Township and Range that it is likely in So Cal, and nearer to the eastern side of So Cal.

 

Grab the right map and you will walk right to it. That is how we find and use them. That IS the Method for finding it. We get in our vehicle and drive to that particular Township, Range and Section. This is Angle point 5. This IS the location. If the BLM website were up I could give you a link to the data along with a Map and a Photo of the area. I could put a little red dot on the angle point for you. You could figure out where to park and hike to it for yourself. Get it? :D

 

As always,

 

Rob

Edited by evenfall

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Pssst, John,

 

Trumper doesn't do benchmarks. Remember? It would appear Thumper doesn't really care that much.

 

Am I the only person reading the entire post here?

 

You guys gotta stop speed reading. You're missing the good stuff!

 

I'll even use an emoticon so you will see I am funning with you here. You might have noticed i was having a little fun with Trumper while I was at it... I just want you all to realize that before this thread take ones of those trollish turns. Eh?

 

:D

 

Heck, this one too :lol:

 

Rob

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OK,

 

the first time he posted, he didn't list where he thought it was located (that's why his first post had an edit). And that's why I responded that the puzzle wasn't "solved." He went back and added that location later....

 

Now he's posted where he thinks it is located: Wrong. Even the state is incorrect.

 

So the puzzle remains: where is it located?

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So the puzzle remains: where is it located?

 

This sounds like something that I encounter when folks find out I enjoy recovering benchmarks and using my GPS. They send me e-mails with lat and long and ask, "where is this?"

 

I finally figured out they were trying to be cute, and that the indicated spot had zero significance. They just liked to show off beginner's knowledge, I guess. The annoying part is that they often mis-typed the coordinates. Eventually, I had to explain that this is not really entertaining to me. And they finally stopped with the e-mails.

 

For Trumper: This forum frequently gets serious inquiries from folks who have found a benchmark and are curious what it is. And in every case, everyone pulls together to share our knowledge. However, simply dropping a photo into the pile as some kind of challenge is not really what we are about, here.

 

Some are challenged by following 60-year-old descriptions. Some enjoy the history. A number of us perform a valuable function as volunteers with the National Geodetic Survey and related state agencies. A few are professionals in the field of surveying.

 

We're here to help. And if you wish to try recovering some benchmarks, you will find an outstanding group of guys and gals who can get you started on the right track. I believe you'd like it. Some geocachers enhance their sport by looking for benchmarks near the caches they target. Others get hopeless addicted to benchmarks, to the eventual exclusion of caches.

 

Either way, we're having fun! And you're welcome to join in!

 

Best regards,

 

-Paul-

Edited by PFF

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Echoing Evenfall, there really isn't a puzzle to be had here. The mark in question - a PLSS Section Corner - explicitly tells where it is. It is stamped on it. The only puzzle would be what State it is in, and that could be any of the State that use the PLSS (not all do). The PLSS is a rectangular system of land measurement. Most of California and all of Nevada use Mount Diablo, near the Bay Area as the point of origin for their system. Lets assume the this mark is in the Mount Diablo Base & Meridian. The mark shows that it is located in Township 20 North (T20N) and Range 25 East (R25E). A township is 6x6 miles square meaning the township is located approximately 120 miles north an 150 miles east of Mount Diablo. Like Evenfall said, grab the right map, in this case a 7.5' quad map, most of which show the PLSS section lines, and it will lead you right to it.

 

My rough calcs say it would be in the neighborhood of 39.57°N, 119.19°W, in the Fernley East Quad, about 5 miles southeast of the town of Fernley, Nevada, in the Hot Springs Mountains.

 

(Sorry Evenfall, it's not even close to Southern California.)

 

- Kewaneh

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It is located in the State of California, in Township 20 North, Range 25 East, Section 28, and it is angle point 5 on the section border.  I would also guess without looking at the map, that by noting the high numbers of Township and Range that it is likely in So Cal, and nearer to the eastern side of So Cal.

 

Without knowing the meridian it could be just about anywhere. If it is using the Salt River Meridian It will likely be in Arizona.

 

John

 

removed the prime.

Edited by 2oldfarts (the rockhounders)

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.. Even the state is incorrect.

 

So the puzzle remains: where is it located?

It could be located in any State that uses the PLSS for land measurement AND that is either large enough or far away enough for the mark in question to be located approximately 120 miles north and 150 miles east of its Base & Meridian origin.

 

- Kewaneh

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Howdy.

 

KK, I get the message about "not interesting." But that's exactly what I said in my first post: "I'm not a benchmarker--I'm a geocacher. I happened across this benchmark, took a picture, and thought it might be fun for someone to figure out where it is...." That's all; sorry if that's not something you appreciate; I was just trying to give you a pic of something I found....

 

For what it's worth, it's not in NV either. So apparently, it's not as easy as some folks think it is!

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California Has 3 different Meridians, Nevada has no meridian of it's own and uses California's Meridians, Can't recall exactly but Arizona uses them also in part of their state, I can't exactly recall.

 

If the BLM's Site were up, I could sort it out just as I said. Everything is all there. No Mystery, not too difficult to sort out. If it is not in California, that makes sense too as it is Well East of the Meridian it Belongs to. The state lines don't run in straight N-S Lines so the PLSS will cross them at different places. There are only so many places that place can be and it can be narrowed down.

 

Not too hard to sort up with access to the data. We will have Access when BLM is back online.

 

Rob

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The important point I was making is that the Cadastral Marker informs us of it's location within the system it uses. That is not a Mystery. Well Not to someone in the Survey industry. You have us on the State for now. But I am sure there are only so many meridians who have Townships and ranges at this range with sections that have an angle point 5 and that narrows it down.

 

Bottom line, It does not need to have a Geodetic position in order to be found with the Cadastral system. The Bureau of Land Management has an online database with all this in it and this too is in there. Their database is currently offline for security upgrades and they are not stating when they'll be back up. No Matter. It is findable.

 

Rob

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KK,

 

sorry for the fuss. It's here:

 

http://www.stanford.edu/~twiggins/benchmark/mark.html

 

That's about a mile north of Interstate 40, just east of the Painted Desert, in Arizona on really old Route 66. There's an old trading post out there and a concrete bridge over the Dead River. Really cool place.

 

Anyway, sorry if I caused some fuss here--I just found the benchmark way out there and thought it was "interesting"--guess not.

 

Cheers,

 

Tom

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Kewaneh,

 

No problem! I know that the California Meridians crawl a long way east and it depends on which meridian being used. I don't work that area, and I don't have access to the data, but I do know Trumper caches in California... I also know it is in a state that uses PLSS so... Not having access to the maps at the Moment I could not look and see if the likelihood of this section belonging to a Meridian North or South of where the Nevada state line cuts East forced me to Guess. Now he says it is in none of the States. I am missing some of the thread here real time as I am posting to it at the same time others are.

 

What they may not have realized is that the station has it's solution right on it including the directions of the lines leading to and from AP 5. Angle Point 5 will be the tattletale I imagine and until the database is Up, It is Trumper's Game. I don't have maps for all that at home, but it is a solvable puzzle, Not a mystery.

 

Thanks Kewaneh!

 

Rob

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Trumper.

 

I did say eastern So Cal as a guess. Townships are 6 miles on a side, so are ranges. so I can calc the distance east from the meridian but without access to the data, I cannot see if I was east enough to be in Arizona as based on the location of the meridian, so I guessed East So Cal.

 

It is interesting, But you picture of the station was clear enough to bag it without coordinates, if the Database was up. It wasn't so I couldn't use it, and so I guessed based on recollected deductions and a little detective work on where you are likely to be found playing in your free time.

 

You did fine, You threw down the Gauntlet and I bit. It was good fun. I was close and I am not disappointed.

 

Thanks for the fun,

 

Rob

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I stand by my post. Tom would enjoy Benchmark hunting.

 

Great photos, by the way.

-Paul-

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Ok, there is something here I haven't learned yet. What are Angle Points on a section boundary?

 

I thought I was pretty familiar with the PLSS as it applies in the midwest, and hadn't run into the term Angle Points. Are these part of an ordinary 8-sided section or do they apply to odder shapes?

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Hi Bill,

 

Sections are actually supposed to be square, and represent a square mile, Sometimes it does not work. The earth is not flat so squares don't fit all the time, and terrain can get in the way of easily surveying a straight line, especially back in the day, So sometimes the line was not straight. Where it changed directions yet was not a section corner was called an angle point.

 

Thanks for asking,

 

Rob

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I thought I was pretty familiar with the PLSS as it applies in the midwest, and hadn't run into the term Angle Points. Are these part of an ordinary 8-sided section or do they apply to odder shapes?

 

In the southwest the PLSS rectangular system runs up against land grants issued by the Spanish empire, and later, the Mexican government. By the terms of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, the U.S. government honored these land grants when it took over after the Mexican war. These land grants are described by metes and bounds, rather than rectangular sections, and have rather irregular shapes. The land inside these grants were not surveyed and divided into mile long squares. Monuments were not set at section corners. They were monumented by lines around the outer perimeter. Angle points were numbered consecutively from the point of beginning and sometimes you find mile markers numbered consecutively from the point of beginning, also.

 

In New Mexico, when we run across a brass cap monument like the one that is the subject of this thread, it means public lands on the the side of the marks showing section, township and range (hence PLSS system) and land grant on the other side of the long marks (hence metes and bounds). The section lines stop at this point. A look at a USGS quad will show the nice, neat reddish lines showing the sections will stop and a void will be on the other side.

 

The longer lines stamped into this brass cap show, roughly the outline of the metes and bounds survey in that area. Sometimes the initials of the land grant are stamped onto the brasscap.

 

I think this thread appeals to the investigative nature of benchmark hunting. A look at quad maps in that area might show the irregular shape of the metes and bounds survey, and angle point #5 would be plainly shown.

 

Whew. I'm out of breath with all of this typing. Hope it helps some.

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KK,

 

sorry for the fuss. It's here:

 

http://www.stanford.edu/~twiggins/benchmark/mark.html

 

That's about a mile north of Interstate 40, just east of the Painted Desert, in Arizona on really old Route 66. There's an old trading post out there and a concrete bridge over the Dead River. Really cool place.

 

Anyway, sorry if I caused some fuss here--I just found the benchmark way out there and thought it was "interesting"--guess not.

 

Cheers,

 

Tom

Nice pictures! And I always thought those rusted autos were just dumped by various individuals, never knew they had a purpose, however ugly they may be.

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People from New Mexico keep popping up! Greetings, JBAnderson.

 

And ya'll came down a little rough on trumper.

 

I've been recovering some of the marks along the Elena Gallegos land grant on the north side of Albuquerque. There's a line that runs E-W across the north side of the city, then gets blocked by the N-S mountains on either side of the city. There's another E-W line on the north side of the grant. Here's one of them on the south line, FO1129, and another FO1147. While both are section marks, on FO1129 you can see the E G stamping for Elena Gallegos that JBAnderson mentioned.

 

In the Geocaching map the land grant is the red area to the north; the city of Albuquerque is the white area to the south.

 

Buckner

Albuquerque, NM

Edited by BuckBrooke

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JBA, thanks for all that typing as it is a very clear explanation.

 

Rob, at least in the midwestern US, the sections were of course nominally square (except for the last ones in a township that were whatever was left over), but the instructions had the original surveyor monument the half-mile points ("quarter corners") on the boundary of each section. The section was not defined by 4 corners, nor by many points on the surveyor's path, but by straight lines connecting those 8 points. Further subdivision was supposed to be based on the 8 points regardless of how accurately the original work fit the square model.

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Sections are actually supposed to be square, and represent a square mile, Sometimes it does not work.  The earth is not flat so squares don't fit all the time, and terrain can get in the way of easily surveying a straight line, especially back in the day, So sometimes the line was not straight.  Where it changed directions yet was not a section corner was called an angle point. 

 

Thanks for asking,

 

Rob

I thought it was said that these PLSS were not geodetic.

So curvature of the earth and all the other does not apply.

 

It is the Plane Coordinates System as stated no elevations.

cpoint.gif

 

That would be More or less rectangles not angle points.

 

These lines should all form right angles Viz;+

 

Woops it was explained.

Edited by GEO*Trailblazer 1

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Bill,

 

Last fall we had some treads on PLSS and I wrote a few posts all about it, Mike, Z15, contributed a great image which had a diagram of how the township range section and other components divvy up.

 

In Washington, just as in the midwest, the PLSS system runs pretty square where it is easy for it to. We didn't have the metes and bound situation or a treaty, but there were rivers streams and hilly or mountainous terrain that would alter the shape of things. Based on my primary experience with that area, I tend to draw on that when I answer. I have run into my fair share of angle points in my time, but as I said yesterday, the BLM Database was down, <checking...> and yup, still is offline, so I have no way to see the maps and photographic images to speak to the specific area. There are lots of local things going on everywhere as we all know.

 

JBA's informative post concerning the things going on in Arizona were interesting. I like learning something new everyday, that was cool to know.

 

As a rule it will try to be square, in places it cannot so it doesn't. We go with what is on the Map and in the Survey Notes.

 

Rob

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Geo, Whoops!

 

SPCS, State plane Coordinates was developed by NGS, well CGS, back in the 30's for use with plane surveying techniques. Quick and dirty, the SPCS is allowed to ignore the curvature of the earth by dividing the States into Zones. As long as the zone (which usually follow along county lines, and is made up of multiple counties) does not grow too large, the flat plane can remain highly accurate. It is also very useful when used with Maps, specifically the Transverse Mercator projection, because of the straight ahead use of Cartesian Coordinates. Most of the figuring, thanks to being flat can be done with reasonably simple Geometry. The nice thing about it is that since the zones are so small, linear measurements are considered accurate to 1 in 10,000 units, with no dependency on unit type, That is four times more accurate than UTM. The grid is easy, it eliminates trig for positioning.

 

PLSS or Public Land Survey System is primarily used for the boundary surveys of real property. It uses the Township, and Range grid system to to determine where are the boundaries actually are. You have the standard T&R, Sec, Half and Qtr layout, and so on. Parcels of land are described as to size and shape based on those sizes and shapes and the deviations from those sizes and shapes. The sizes and shapes of boundaries of land and real property were both sort of scientific and sort of legal, and were never always perfect, but the hope was always that they would be describable as possible through the use of this system.

 

Geo, While it is true that each of these systems use a grid, so to speak, only one of them is using a mathematical coordinate system to which geometry is applied. That is the SPCS and as you know, every NGS Datasheet has SPCS positions for every PID. Though the PLSS system has an interest in being geodetically accurate, it is more an afterthought than a basis in it's design. The current managers of PLSS at BLM have expressed that they are working to attempt making PLSS a better fit with respect to geodetic positioning than it had in the past. It is something they are concerned with and that will happen over time.

 

Rob

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Thanks evenfall,

I have been working here on it for over 10 years now.

I have found rather (large) erros myself.

 

Thanks for the stait answer,

I can see the diffrence's in the survey's as well with magnetic declination.

In 1843 it was different than it is now.

You have to go back and try to recalculate the declination bearings.

Which is easy once figured out.

 

All the Original GLO Plats have it marked on them somewhere.

It was a part of the obsevation's and the Law.

 

As you know well tis is a life long adventure,and each day is different.

That is what makes this hobby so intriguing.

 

Many many years went by that we are looking at and trying to get all the answers in a few day's months or even years is impossible.

But man is it fun,and a learning experience.

 

Again thanks to all for your continued support,comments,help and friendship........

even if it is virtual right now.

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Trumper, if you do get interested in benchmark hunting, there's one near the Quad from 1899 that needs finding. (It isn't in the geocaching.com database, but I have description of it from USGS.) Actually, I'm pretty sure that I found the right location, but that it's been covered by cement. Same with another one behind the old hospital (now Hoover Pavilion).

 

Maybe you'd even be interested in contacting the Facilities department to see what they know about those. Anyway, if you get interested sometime, drop me a note and I'll send you the info.

 

Patty

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Monumented AP's which stands for Angle Point are seldom on section lines, but on other metes and bounds parcels such as Indian Reservations, Grants, and other claims or tracts of land that do not conform to the regular PLSS. In this case there is a tract of land going up and down the creek that is Navajo Trust lands for some reason.

 

While such monuments are not principally bench marks, technically neither are a lot of NGS horizontal trig stations. This forum seems to have always allowed a certain degree of diversity and curiosity when it comes to unusual survey marks out there.

 

The description of BLM survey marks is usually contained in official field notes and can be obtained from your BLM state office.

 

- jerry wahl

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