Help Please!

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

MO KS OK GG0683

 

In the description it states that the KANSAS 18 State corners is 50' East of the center of Monument.

 

The coordinates of the offset monument place you west of the Monument.

 

The Offset Monument.

OFFSET MONUMENT

 

And also in Cherokee County,Kansas,not Newton County,Missouri.

The offset monument has no documentation I can find.

 

A preliminary measurement and GPS observation(readings) of the azimuths place the new setting east of the monument.

 

I got the azimuths and bearing from.

GG0689 SE KAN

 

And then we have here that the Border line was to be placed on 37*

OKLAHOMA JOURNALS

 

I did not notice this on my first recovery.

Before I report it to the NGS I wanted some professional advice.

 

Thank's I know I must be overlooking...............something here.

But it has got my interest especially the chronicles.

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

70 plus views and no replies?

Am I being shunned?

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

I'm no professional, but I will hazard a guess as to what you're seeing.

 

GG0683 was monumented in 1934 and says the actual border is 50' east of the monument.

 

GG0688 was monumented in 1961 and gives no info other than to say it is an offset. Does that mean it is offset from the actual boundary or offset from the monument?

 

Is the offset in relation to the OK, Kansas stateline since the monument clearly specifies where the Kansas, Missouri stateline is?

 

You deserve to be shunned for asking such intriguing questions, that has the panel stumped!

 

John

[holograph]

I'm not sure what your question is. Since GG0689, GG0683, and GG0688 are all adjusted, you can compute their distances and azimuths exactly using the geodetic inverse computation. I get the following map, with no discrepancies between their computed azimuths and the azimuths that appear on the GG0689 datasheet.

 

 

edit: reading the GG0689 datasheet, it appears that GG0683 has always been an offset to the actual boundary monument, which was a concrete post 50 east of GG0683. From the GG0689 description in 1935, it sounds like the original actual boundary was a post in a circle (a.k.a. roundabout) at the center of the intersection. The 1935 description for GG0683 indicates that the stone monument and plaque was always 50 feet east of the actual concrete boundary post, which was most likely destroyed in 1956 when the road work was done.

Edited May 10, 2005 by holograph

[evenfall]

Geo,

 

I would write Cheryl and ask her if she thinks the 1961 monumenting narrative information can be added to the Datasheet, or at the very least if she can share more file information with you. The Datasheet leaves too much to be desired on GG0688. You may which to inquire about any box score data for either of the stations you mentioned. Both are second order survey, and it isn't unusual for that information to be available. In this case it would seem it isn't.

 

Without that, there is not any information what they intended to offset, or how and by how much. I am certain that they may refer to the state line but without knowing how far they offset, you cannot locate the border. Not much of anything. Getting that will help explain the things you are wondering.

 

Hope that helps for now.

 

Rob

Edited May 10, 2005 by evenfall

[holograph]

You know, I'm going to reconsider. Is the current 12' stone monument in the center of the road, or is it off to the side? None of the photos show a wide area shot of the mark.

 

If the stone monument is west of the road, I might suggest that the current stone monument is actually GG0688, and that GG0683 was a concrete post that has gone missing.

 

The 1935 description of GG0689 says GG0689 is 101 feet west of the centerline of the road, and that the concrete post and badly battered boundary monument was in the center of the road, 1 inch below the surface. That fits with the azimuths and distances as shown in the map below, if GG0683 is the battered boundary post, and it puts it solidly in the center of the road, as shown below.

 

The 1961 report for GG0689 says that the boundary monument was not found, and that "the point held by this party" was the center of the stone monument. I suggest that they observed the center of the stone monumnent and "monumented" it as GG0688 in 1961, and that it is indeed the boundary offset, not the boundary monument. The boundary would be 50 feet to the east, marked by the missing concrete post that was in the center of the road, and that missing post should be GG0683.

 

Also, although the 1935 description for GG0689 says the boundary marker was in a circle in the road, in 1956 there are references to "a boundary marker" on the right side of the road when travelling south. That might indicate that the stone monument was previously present, but was not the GG0683 boundary monument.

 

Edited May 10, 2005 by holograph

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

You did what I did the first time.

 

The Monuments are the other way around.

I hope you don,t mind I edited your example to show.

 

This is GG0683 looking east from the westerly side to the new offset monument.

 

This is looking west from the offset and the middle of the road.

 

When I get the whole photo album together I will link it.

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

GG0683 AND OTHERS SLIDE SHOW

[holograph]

You did what I did the first time.

 

The Monuments are the other way around.

I hope you don,t mind I edited your example to show.

Nope, I had it right.

 

Here are the adjusted coordinates of the stations from the datasheets, from east to west. These were cut and pasted into this message, so there is no risk of transcription error.

 

GG0683* NAD 83(1997)- 36 59 54.95605(N) 094 37 04.55211(W) ADJUSTED

GG0688* NAD 83(1997)- 36 59 54.94337(N) 094 37 05.17219(W) ADJUSTED

GG0689* NAD 83(1997)- 36 59 55.57477(N) 094 37 05.76916(W) ADJUSTED

 

GG0683 is clearly east of GG0688, as I had it drawn, and as the box score for GG0689 indicates. I still think that the 1935 team mislead everyone with their description of GG0683. For reasons below, I think it's possible that the 1935 team only wrote the first paragraph of the description on GG0683, and the second paragraph is a transcription error and should be attributed to the 1961 party. Without that second paragraph, the stone monument is merely a landmark: "to a boundary marker on the right" does not necessarily mean that the boundary marker (the commemorative stone monument) is the boundary survey monument (the post in the road).

 

It's too suspicious that the second paragraph of the description for GG0683 is so similar to the 1961 party's description, as if someone mixed up the recovery reports or did an incomplete transcription when they were entered into the database:

 

For GG0683 supposededly in 1935:

THE BOUNDRY MONUMENT IS MADE OF ROCK WITH A ROUND CONCRETE TOP.

IT HAS A BRASS PLATE ON THE SOUTH SIDE WITH THE INSCRIPTION

OKLAHOMA 1907 AND A BRASS PLATE ON THE NORTH SIDE WITH THE

INSCRIPTION KANSAS 18 STATE CORNERS 50 FEET EAST OF CENTER OF

MONUMENT.  THE POINT HELD BY THIS PARTY WAS THE CENTER OF

THE CONCRETE TOP OF THE MONUMENT.

 

For GG0689 in 1961:

THE BOUNDRY MONUMENT IS MADE OF ROCK WITH A ROUND CONCRETE TOP.

IT HAS A BRASS PLATE ON THE SOUTH SIDE WITH THE INSCRIPTION

OKLAHOMA 1907 AND A BRASS PLATE ON THE NORTH SIDE WITH THE

INSCRIPTION KANSAS 18 STATE CORNERS 50 FEET EAST OF CENTER OF

MONUMENT.  THE POINT HELD BY THIS PARTY WAS THE CENTER OF

THE CONCRETE TOP OF THE MONUMENT.

[holograph]

The Flickr slide show didn't work for me. I can't see any images.

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

It might say that but.......

GG0683 IS WEST 50' of the Center of the road.

And GG0688 is East of it in the center of the road.

 

I am gonna have to get more details.

 

Flickr is doing work on data base.

Working on it.

[holograph]

Right, that's why I was inclined to say that the large stone monument is actually GG0688, and the flat plate that I saw in your photo may be a reset of GG0683. I can't tell if there is an inscription on the plate. If it has a stamping that says "BOUNDARY MON KS MO OK OFFSET" then things are definitely screwed up.

 

It just seemed that the large stone monument sounded like it was the "boundary marker" on the side of the road, and that whatever the original survey monument that was in the center of the road, that was a battered concrete post one inch below the surface, was lost. The large stone monument seemed to have no significance until the 1961 party observed its center.

[holograph]

Flickr finally got back online, and I was able to look at your slide show. I assume that the square, flat "Missouri Association of County Surveyors" marker is the one that is in the center of the intersection as shown in your second photo above?

 

To me, that would still indicate that the original GG0683, which was the original true boundary monument in the center of the intersection (but incorrectly described in the datasheet), was lost and recently replaced by the Missouri Association of County Surveyors marker, which is also sitting at the true boundary position. I don't think the new marker is the offset monument GG0688, I think the new Missouri Association marker is not in the database at all -- either it was never surveyed to NGS standards, or its data is working its way through the system and it will eventually appear as a new PID. Aside from its position, it is too new to be the 1961 offset monument, GG0688.

 

The old pillar of stone was probably erected in 1907 as its plaque indicates, and truely is positioned 50 feet west of the boundary. The 1961 party simply used it as their offset monument when they couldn't find the original boundary monument, and then they proceeded to royally screw up the descriptions of GG0683 and GG0688.

 

Everyone who has been logging the stone pillar as GG0683 has probably been wrong, but it is an honest error because the datasheet description is probably wrong.

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

Brain fA*t.

 

My mind has toooooo many things to do right now I can not think as clear as I want.

Let me do some more siferin.

 

If you are standing looking North the Stone Monument is on the left(GG0683) ..West.

The flat Missouri monument is directly in front of you in the middle of the road.

It is over (GG0688)the pieces of the monument that me and some others found(metal detector indicated metal),but I did not dig it out at that time.

It was covered before I returned.

 

If you go East of GG0683 as described

Then that must be another mark.

[evenfall]

Geo,

 

It would be easy to reverse engineer this.

 

Load the waypoints into your GPS. Run a go to at them until you are pointing at it and compare the coordinates on the datasheet. It will be close enough to sort it out, Believe me.

 

Match up the PID with the displayed location. Done deal. I mean you are dealing with some rather large objects here eh?

 

The one in the road, run a go to on the coordinates and go with what is or is not there.

 

Report it as you observe it.

 

Unless I am missing something, Things will either be as they should, and the one in the road is likely missing, Or? Either way it will help you sort out what is what. Go with the positions the Datasheet gives you.

 

Good Luck,

 

Rob

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

 

WELL HERE IS THE OBSERVATION'S.

 

GG0683

IS IN THE CENTER OF THE COUNTY ROAD AT THE COORDINATES LISTED.

IT IS THE MISSOURI SURVEYOR,S CEMENT MONUMENT WITH THE 3 STATES MAP AS SHOWN.

 

GG0688

IS THE STONE MONUMENT DESRIBED WITH THE PLAQUES AT COORDINATES LISTED.

I ONLY GOT A PARTIAL PICTURE OF THE PLAQUE CORNER ON THE NORTH SIDE,THE ONE ON THE SOUTH SIDE HAS BEEN VANDALIZED AS WELL.

LETTERS REMAINING.

K

STAT

EAST CE

 

IT APPEARS TO ME THAT THE COORDINATES(DATA) GOT PLACED ON THE DATA SHEETS INCORRECTLY.IN REVERSE ORDER.

 

LOOKING NORTH WEST TO GG0689 SE KS TRIANGULATION STATION BETWEEN THE MONUMENTS.

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

E-mail sent to Cheryl this morning.

Up and at it early today.

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

I still have not heard anything on this one.

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

Still waiting bump.

 

I still have not recieved anything on this.

[Difficult Run]

Interesting thread... Geo, I hope you get a reply soon.

 

Question for Holograph: What drawing program are you using?? I've looked around for such a program that doesn't need a steep learning curve.

 

Thanks!

Mitch

[holograph]

That's TurboCAD. It's merit was that it was cheap (for a CAD program), not that it was easy to use. CAD programs are nice tools to use when you want to draw things to exact scale and position, but they aren't necessarily the best tools for casual drawing.

 

P.S. It's also the tool I used to create the do-it-yourself downloadable photographic scale at http://www.holoscenes.com/special/geocac/useful_tools.html

 

Edited July 27, 2005 by holograph

[ArtMan]

That's TurboCAD.  It's merit was that it was cheap (for a CAD program), not that it was easy to use.  CAD programs are nice tools to use when you want to draw things to exact scale and position, but they aren't necessarily the best tools for casual drawing.

I have no experience with any CAD program, but a quick web search indicates several inexpensive options. Two that came immediately to my attention —

 

QCad is available for several platforms ($28).

 

DESI-III is actually a free DOS program, but it will run under Windows or, with emulation, on other platforms. Multi-language support, too.

 

As I said, I have no expertise in CAD, so please do not consider this a recommendation. But if it's something you are interested in (and the learning curve is said to be steep), there are free or inexpensive ways of getting your toes wet.

 

-Art-

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

A real easy one to use is GPS Trackmaker.

 

GPS TRACKMAKER

[ArtMan]

A real easy one to use is GPS Trackmaker.

This looks like an interesting product, but it does not appear to be a CAD program. CAD stands for Computer Aided Design. For a brief discussion and links, see Wikipedia.

 

-ArtMan-

[TerraVador]

I plotted the points on USAPHOTOMAPS:

 

 

You can faintly tell on the aerial photo that the road used to make a complete circle around GG0683. The shadow of the 12' monument is also faintly visible on the photo.

 

Here is what I think happened. In 1935, there was a flat monument in a grassy median in the middle of a circle in the road, and 1" below the road surface. There was no 12' monument at that time.

In 1938, the 12' monument was built 50 feet to the west. The caption on this plaque reads "AD 1938 NATIONAL YOUTH ADMINISTRATION"

 

 

Oklahoma became a state in 1907. I think that is what the "OKLAHOMA 1907" means, not that the monument was built in 1907.

 

When the 12' monument was built, the road was straightened. The old flat monument was now in the middle of the gravel road. Over the years it got covered in gravel or was graded away. In 1961, they could not find the flat monument. They took a bearings of the new 12' monument. Somehow ,the paperwork got screwed up, and the coordinates of GG0688 and GG0683 got switched.

 

A Geocacher, BIGDILLO, found an iron pin where they later put the new flat monument in the road in 2004. GG0683 should probably be considered destroyed unless it was resurveyed in 2004 when they put in the new flat monument.

Edited July 27, 2005 by TerraVador