Rights Of Way And Their Closure!?!

[+Rocky Balboa]

Myself and Pid have a cache located at a disused church in the middle of a field near to us in Fleet Marston. The keys to this church are kept at the local farm shop and a lot of visitors to this hide seem to go and get the keys first, follow the trail to the church through a reclaimation yard and find the stash, looking around the church at the same time.

 

However, I have just been reading through the latest logs here (under Pids username so it's been a while!) and noticed that the last two visitors have had problems with the owner of this yard who has told them that 'their sort' was not wanted there and that they have had problems with paranormal looneys seeking treasure in the graveyard.

 

Without visiting again I couldn't honestly say if this path to the church is a footpath or just a good will gesture but I can't understand why this problem has occured!

 

Anyways... The question im interested in having answered is when, if ever, do land owners have the right to shut footpaths to certain individuals. I will be visiting this location to see if there is actually a marked trail here and if a footpath sign exists I would like to know my rights.

 

The page for this cache can be viewed here if anyone is interested in taking a quick look!

[+Simply Paul]

According to Streetmap.co.uk, there is no official right of way: Link

 

The OS 'get-a-map' service at 1:25,000 scale shows no public footpath either.

 

I didn't have a problem when I visited, but that might be that it was in the days before I had a GPS or printed out cache pages. Keeping such items out of sight might be all that's needed to avoid being labelled as a 'loon'.

 

SP

[+-Phoenix-]

A path shown on a map is no indication of a right of way.

 

No path shown on the map is no indication that no right of way exisits.

[+Faye & Brad]

Either way, he sounds like a really nice chap.

 

After just spending the best part of 3 hours talking to a close friend who is going through a really bad time at the moment, it's so nice to hear of yet another nasty person with nothing better to do than make other people's lives a misery.

 

Sometimes I wonder why we bother!

 

Brad

[+The J J Noodle Fan Club]

A path shown on a map is no indication of a right of way.

 

No path shown on the map is no indication that no right of way exisits.

I beg to differ on the first one.

 

On an OS map a pinky red dotted line (there are 4 types) is an absoloute indication that the path is a public right of way. It's only other paths that may not be a ROW.

 

Cheers.

Edited May 4, 2005 by The J J Noodle Fan Club

[NickPick]

Bucks County Council have online maps of ROWs here. The definitive map itself is not online, but I expect the online map is derived from it.

 

I'm suprised that there isn't a ROW to a church! Churches are usually the centre point to a star shape of paths.

 

I hope you have sucess explaining geocaching to the yard owner. The cache and church look interesting and I'd like to visit them both on one of my many visits from Hemel to Bicester (especially if the farm shop sells cakes!).

 

Edit - I've just been looking at the other map page on the above link - The map there goes right down to 1:2500 scale mapping (individual houses), and you can view all the council's GIS layers (as well as things like sssis etc.)

Edited May 4, 2005 by NickPick

[+Brenin Tegeingl]

Contact the local councils Rights of Way Officer, who will be able to give you the correct information on whether access is by a RoW or is by a Permissive Path. Alternatively visit the local library which should have a copy of the Deffinative Map showing all the RoWs in the area (you might have to make a appointment to see it). This will give you information on what sort off approach is needed.

 

Dave

[+The J J Noodle Fan Club]

The text on The Churches Conservation Trust website (they own the church) here suggests they would rather like people to visit the church.

 

I suspect between Alibags in January and Phillimore in April one or more cachers who didn't enter a log gave a less than favourable explanation of what they were doing and/or argued about it being a RoW (which it looks like it isn't) and the wrong impression has been acquired about what we're doing.

 

Jon.

Edited May 4, 2005 by The J J Noodle Fan Club

[+Mad H@ter]

Being one of the victims to this pleasant man , I felt that perhaps I ought to add my ten penny's worth.

Initially when he started shouting at us from his house, he would have had no idea that we were Geocacher's as we were some distance away and had no bits of paper, so I don't think he was discriminating against Geocaching loonies at this time, just all loonies. Had I been sure of my right of way I would have probably just walked on, but as it was, we were not at all sure we should have been here as no paths are marked on the OS map and no footpath signs were evident. We decided it best not to argue with him and went back to the car. It was then that he reappeared and noticed our Geocaching paraphernalia and labeled us as para wotsit loonies and went on to tell us that our kind had been there at night and the police had been told and our sort were not welcome here .

At the end of the day, no matter how much of a miserable old so and so he is (and believe me he was very miserable), if this is his land (and he gave the impression it is) and there are no ROW's (I could see no evidence of any), then I believe he has every right to turn us away , and perhaps we should just put this one down to experience and archive it, a shame to kill what seems to be a good cache, but it's just not worth the agro.

[+Boneychest & Catsuey]

A path shown on a map is no indication of a right of way.

 

No path shown on the map is no indication that no right of way exisits.

I beg to differ on the first one.

 

On an OS map a pinky red dotted line (there are 4 types) is an absoloute indication that the path is a public right of way. It's only other paths that may not be a ROW.

 

Cheers.

You would think so, wouldn't you. But OS maps aren't dynamic.

 

Our local area has a few public footpaths marked on the most recently printed map that are no longer ROW. The land owner can apply at any time for a change to the route or to remove a ROW; a planning notice goes up for a couple of months and if there are no serious objections then the change can be made. The map isn't updated until the next major revision. A reprint doesn't update the map features or ROWs.

[+Simply Paul]

On the subject of ROW and their closure, I often come across marked public footpaths with missing stiles, electric fences across them, locked gates and the like, plus poorly (or not at all) marked paths that are on my current OS map, with no suggestion they've been diverted.

 

Someone has a duty to keep these paths open (Landowner? Local Authority?) and frankly, some stiles I've crossed represent a serious health risk! I really should get around to finding out whose ear I need to have a word in when I find such obstacles.

 

I believe rights of way can be suspended by a local council. Remember Foot and Mouth? Lots of 'DO NOT CROSS' tape in play then. There's also the issue of footpaths crossing the estates of big houses. They might tolerate people 'wondering off the path' when entrance is £3.80, but on a £380 gala night with the London Philharmonic Orchestra, complimentary champagne and fireworks as a backdrop to the 1812 Overture, they might get the paths temporarily sealed.

 

All good fun and games.

 

SP

[+sTeamTraen]

It was then that he reappeared and noticed our Geocaching paraphernalia and labeled us as para wotsit loonies

There's a lot of people out there for whom the boundaries between high-tech and the occult are "somewhat blurred". As Isaac Asimov said, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic".

 

My next-door neighbour is into every kind of paranormal loony stuff going: horoscopes, homeopathy, dowsing, etc etc. She plants her root vegetables when the moon is waning (because they "grow down" and the moon is "going down" in size, although of course by the same token its shadow is "going up"), and her leguminous plants when the moon is waxing (because they "grow up" and the moon is "going up" in size). Really.

 

Anyway, when she saw me in my garden playing with my GPSr (literally; I was doing one of the built-in games), she was very excited, as she thought I'd bought a device which let you locate ley lines. Yeah, right, a whole bunch of companies who do that have been listed on the NASDAQ since someone built a ley-line-detecting chipset.

 

The really worrying thing is that she teaches biology at the equivalent of A-level.

[NickPick]

On the subject of ROW and their closure, I often come across marked public footpaths with missing stiles, electric fences across them, locked gates and the like, plus poorly (or not at all) marked paths that are on my current OS map, with no suggestion they've been diverted.

 

Someone has a duty to keep these paths open (Landowner? Local Authority?) and frankly, some stiles I've crossed represent a serious health risk! I really should get around to finding out whose ear I need to have a word in when I find such obstacles.

Bucks council's website has details of to whom to report ROW problems.

 

It is an offence to block a right of way, although you can temporarily divert them for "Agricultural operations" etc for upto 14 days with the council's approval.

 

Thair FAQ on ROWs is here

[markandlynn]

Institute of ROW officers can be found by following the link. As there are less than 400 in the country you would guess they rely on information from the public. As stated in another post along similar lines i know of some local green lanes marked as private and of one path that has fallen into disuse. Mancunian has some help full advice available for download here.

[+The J J Noodle Fan Club]

A path shown on a map is no indication of a right of way.

 

No path shown on the map is no indication that no right of way exisits.

I beg to differ on the first one.

 

On an OS map a pinky red dotted line (there are 4 types) is an absoloute indication that the path is a public right of way. It's only other paths that may not be a ROW.

 

Cheers.

You would think so, wouldn't you. But OS maps aren't dynamic.

 

Our local area has a few public footpaths marked on the most recently printed map that are no longer ROW. The land owner can apply at any time for a change to the route or to remove a ROW; a planning notice goes up for a couple of months and if there are no serious objections then the change can be made. The map isn't updated until the next major revision. A reprint doesn't update the map features or ROWs.

Point taken - any map is only as correct as the day it was drawn - perhaps I shouldn't have used the word "absoloute".

 

You can probably safely rely on 99% of the public RoW marked on any current OS map as being correct though and on the rare occasion where one has been moved/withdrawn there will almost certainly be signs to that effect in the vicinity (if only to act in the landowners own interests and stop people with old maps trespassing).

[+stu_and_sarah]

Someone has a duty to keep these paths open (Landowner? Local Authority?) and frankly, some stiles I've crossed represent a serious health risk! I really should get around to finding out whose ear I need to have a word in when I find such obstacles.

The Ramblers Association has a guide telling you how to complain on their website at http://www.ramblers.org.uk/footpaths/

 

Sarah

[kiteflyer]

This has been an interesting thread to me as we live very near to the set of a c5 "reality show". There is a public right of way that goes right passed it and when it was on I often went to watch from this path. (Sad I know, must get out more ) But on the final evening of evictions the guys in black would not let us any where near unless we had an invite. even though we were on a public road/path. Didn't argue, just felt that something was not legal here. Maybe they had apllied to close the path but we were not sure.

Maybe next time we will check this out.

Gary

[+Alibags]

Myself and Giav were the previous finders of this cache. We had no probs at all. We collected the key from the farm shop and then accessed the church through the reclamation yard. We asked if it was okay to go through and the ghaps told us where to get through to the field beyond, indicating we should swerve round the piles of recalimed bricks, dodge round the truck and climb over the pile of refuse by the skip... in other words, they were very helpful and friendly. I would suggest that you go and chat to the farm shop who hold the key and see what they suggest. The fact that the key is available for visitors to go up to the chucrh implies that you can in fact go to the church.

 

On a general point, every county has a rights of way officer and you should certainly report illegal closures of rights of way to them to investigate. My friend Jo is a RoW officer and we were discussing this very subject last weekend. On my travels I have encountered high electric fences across footpaths (with no break to get through), gates padlocked shut, styles covered with barbed wire and high crops grown with no mown pathway through, amongst other obstacles. Conversely in the woods in Berkshire, where pheasant rearing is popular, I have mainly found well marked trails with clear signposting to remove any temptation or need to go off piste, which is clearly a better strategy!

 

My office is surrounded by fields and despite the notice on the style informing walkers that they are a caring sharing landowner (not the exact phrase used!), last year they grew a crop of maize across the right of way and now they have ploughed the field and planted a hedgerow across it. Myself and Giav have launched a concerted effort to trample a footpath through the maize this year, and have marked the place where the footpath crosses the hedgeline with a pile of white stones. I have not reported the landowners, but when I bump into the estate manager, I will ask him about it first (I see him from time to time on my travels). I have a cunning plan to hide a cache which requires walking along this right of way, so that geocachers can create the customerary 'superhighway' across the field.

[+Morton]

But on the final evening of evictions the guys in black would not let us any where near unless we had an invite.   even though we were on a public road/path.  Didn't argue, just felt that something was not legal here.  Maybe they had apllied to close the path but we were not sure.

We're into heavy-duty barrack-room lawyering here, but you're only allowed to use a right of way to go from place to place. So even if you'd successfully asserted your right to walk down the path, you wouldn't have the right to stop and watch the show.

 

Or to take a more common example, you're not strictly speaking allowed to stop for a picnic, and the landowner is within their rights to ask you to move on if you do.

 

(Different rules apply in Scotland)

[+Simply B]

Ramblers Assn - Basics of Footpath Law gives clear answers to many of the points raised here. I was going to start quoting it, but the whole page is well worth a read.

[+Beds Clangers]

Oh well, as it was me who posted the last note on the cache in question, here is what happened!!

 

Went to the "Farm Shop" location looking for the access. I was looking for some footpath/bridleway sign, but none in sight. Went to the Farm Shop just to ask, "how do I get to the chapel in the field"? Lady explained that the access was about 1/4 mile away, through a track where MR ANGRY lives.

 

Farm Shop lady went on to tell me that there were "strange going on's at the chapel". THIS IS A QUOTE FROM MEMORY, but she did say "People with lights looking in the chapel yard, at night - visits from paranormal loonies - people wanting to search in the chapel-and!! people looking for a "cachet" from the interweb"!!!?

 

As I had a very large "mobile phone" van in her car park she did ask me what I was looking for ? So my very lame, mobile phone site excuse must have sorted her.

 

I then went to try and find the access and that is when MR ANGRY jumped out. He was not very nice, but I'm sure if your told to F**K O** you don't argue?

 

This might just be case of a cache with "blurred" access but obviously we, I assume cachers, are really winding some guy up.

 

Nick

[Garmin8888]

When one is in a nice country village the locals are kinds 'suspicious' of visitors............ so why not take along a Radio playing the 'Archers'.........lol >>> it keeps them in line!

[+Teasel]

We're into heavy-duty barrack-room lawyering here, but you're only allowed to use a right of way to go from place to place.  So even if you'd successfully asserted your right to walk down the path, you wouldn't have the right to stop and watch the show.

 

Or to take a more common example, you're not strictly speaking allowed to stop for a picnic, and the landowner is within their rights to ask you to move on if you do.

No, that's not true, even in England. You are allowed to stop to eat and drink, or just admire the "scenery", providing that you neither leave the right of way, nor obstruct it. I'm not aware of any law which distinguishes between natural scenery and C5 reality show evictions. The landowner would have no right to tell you to move on (though they can always ask!).

 

I'd strongly recommend the Ramblers Association summary mentioned above. It's easy to read and clears up many common misconceptions.

 

If a right of way has been closed or diverted by a landowner without permission, you have the right both to remove any obstructions, and to use adjacent land to make your way (when I did this cache, I exercised both of these rights!)

[davester]

But on the final evening of evictions the guys in black would not let us any where near unless we had an invite.   even though we were on a public road/path.  Didn't argue, just felt that something was not legal here.  Maybe they had apllied to close the path but we were not sure.

We're into heavy-duty barrack-room lawyering here, but you're only allowed to use a right of way to go from place to place. So even if you'd successfully asserted your right to walk down the path, you wouldn't have the right to stop and watch the show.

 

Or to take a more common example, you're not strictly speaking allowed to stop for a picnic, and the landowner is within their rights to ask you to move on if you do.

 

(Different rules apply in Scotland)

Not true. I know of several public footpaths/bridleways which lead to an abrupt end in the middle of nowhere.

[+Simply Paul]

Not true. I know of several public footpaths/bridleways which lead to an abrupt end in the middle of nowhere.

Quite right. I have a cache at the 'end' of such a cul de sac footpath outside of Oxford. But it does go somewhere. Somewhere nice.

 

On the subject of the original location under discussion, I drove past it earlier and the big gates to the yard which are never closed, are closed. If you see razor wire and a big truck marked 'Acme Land Mines' parked outside, I'd skip this one...

 

SP

 

Edited for the hell of it. That's just the kind of wild-eyed anarchist I am.

Edited May 5, 2005 by Simply Paul

[davester]

Not true. I know of several public footpaths/bridleways which lead to an abrupt end in the middle of nowhere.

 

Quite right. I have a cache at the 'end' of such a cul de sac footpath outside of Oxford. But it does go somewhere. Somewhere nice.

The most important thing about rights of way is the fact that they are enshrined in common law. As long as they have been used in living memory they cannot be revoked.

 

Blair and cronies (may they not hold the seat of power from tomorrow, PLEASE!) tried to remove this in the CROW act of 2003, but it was killed in commitee stages.

Edited May 5, 2005 by davester