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Ok I found this spot in norther wisconsin but is in a hunting spot owned by the deparptment of fish and wildlife and the deparptment of the interrior. Now I know the web site says no placing them on wild life reserves and/or reservations. But this is a public hunting hiking bird watching area that is called a BIRD PRODUCTION ZONE. now i dont know what that means any way i sent out an e-mail to the DOTI and will hopefully get a responce. What do you think about the placement and or the no placement on reserves.

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This rule is not "absolute" - I know of at least one cache (not mine) that exists on a refuge with explicit written permission of the local office. They require a posting of wildlife observed with date and time as well as encourage pictures with date and time. It pre-exists the rule but they will not approve ANY new ones - for now.

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I don't think that hunting grounds, or state game lands are wildlife refuges--quite the opposite. GC.com has already approved many, many caches in such places. I call on Keystone Approver to reconsider his/her comment.

 

The alternative, I think, would be to deactivate several hundred (thousand?) currently active caches.

Edited by reveritt
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The initial post is unclear about what type of land this is, and who manages it. I think that the subsequent posters to this thread have assumed, as I did, that the reference was to the United States Department of the Interior, of which the Fish and Wildlife Service and the National Park Service are constituent agencies. The fact that there is no Wisconsin State Agency called the "Department of the Interior" lends support to the assumption that we are talking about a Federal Agency's policy, not that of a state agency.

 

Therefore, I stand by my prior comment, to the effect that it's not a good idea to hide a geocache "and if someone doesnt like it, take it back" if the property is subject to a ban or a permit process. The site does not list caches which violate known land manager policies, whether they are Federal, State or Local. I am not familiar with the state-level rules in Wisconsin. In my own review territory, I list any caches in a West Virginia Wildlife Management Area (state hunting grounds), because a State official confirmed to me in writing that the agency's permit policy does not cover WMA's. In contrast, I do not list any caches in an Ohio Wildlife Area (state hunting grounds), because the agency's written permit policy expressly prohibits caches in those areas.

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Regardless of which agency manages the land, if the local land manager gives explicit permission, will the cache be approved?

Sorry, but it's difficult to answer that question in the abstract. It's best to deal with the facts of actual situations. What land manager? What policy? What level of proof of permission is available? A decision to list a cache would depend on the answers to those questions, among others.

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I asked the USF&WS point blank if a local NWR manager has the authority to supervise and approve a geocache and the answer was,

The National Wildlife Refuge Improvement Act of 1997 is the 'organic act'

for the management of the National Wildlife Refuge System.

 

In many ways it is more restrictive than the laws governing the

administration of the National Park System.

 

Activities which are not wildlife-related are generally not allowed.

 

That's not a "yes" and that is not a "no." I'd say it would be harder to get a cache approved in NWR than it is in a NP. Not impossible, but very, very difficult.

 

Personally, I'd just talk to the local guy and see BEFORE I placed the cache. If it's a cool enough spot see about creating a virt or virt stage if you can't place a physical there. DO NOT place the cache first because you would be in violation of at least three federal laws and you really don't want that on your record.

 

(Yeah, I've been doing some research because of the recent unpleasantness.)

 

Hope this helps.

Edited by CoyoteRed
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How about a ammo can clearly on NPS land with approval consisting of a hastily scribbled note from the local cheese.

I just had a talk with the local Chief Ranger of a National Monument in Northern New Mexico very much along these lines. Right now geocaching is against NPS policy and that is national policy. I don't think even the Superintendent has the authority to allow caching. That being said, right now there are those within the Park Service working to make this policy more flexible. In the near future it may well be likely that geocaching will be allowed on some park service lands if it is consistent with the enabling legislation that created the park or monument,etc. It would have to be requested by the Park Superintendent and approved at the regional or national level.

 

I am looking at putting a cache in an interesting place on Department of Energy land. DOE is really not into being land managers and they have very few regulations. This piece of land is actually administered by the Park Service and they pay them to do it. The Park that administers this piece of land has no issues with me placing a cache there.

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Right now geocaching is against NPS policy and that is national policy. I don't think even the Superintendent has the authority to allow caching.

They do have the authority. There are fully approved caches on NPS property.

 

The policy you speak of is based on some interpretations of some federal regulations; littering, abandoned property, trespassing, and couple more I think. However, each of those regulations become moot the instant the cache is approved by the proper persons.

 

Now, I have heard, but not researched, about some internal politics where a cache was first approved and then some higherups poohed-poohed it and it was removed. Job security and politicial maneuvering within the ranks of any organization could cause unofficial policy to change like the breeze.

 

The thing to remember though, and this is very important, "it's better to ask for forgiveness..." is NOT the best policy when placing a cache on NPS property. The "asking for forgiveness" will be in the form of trying to get a federal charge removed form your record.

 

Hope this helps.

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I asked the USF&WS point blank if a local NWR manager has the authority to supervise and approve a geocache and the answer was,
The National Wildlife Refuge Improvement Act of 1997 is the 'organic act' for the management of the National Wildlife Refuge System.

 

In many ways it is more restrictive than the laws governing the administration of the National Park System.

 

Activities which are not wildlife-related are generally not allowed.

In researching other activities permitted at NWR's, I noted that hunting and fishing are allowed in a number of refuges.

 

Apparently it's OK to kill the animals, but don't even think about hiding a piece of tupperware near them.

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Now, I have heard, but not researched, about some internal politics where a cache was first approved and then some higherups poohed-poohed it and it was removed. Job security and politicial maneuvering within the ranks of any organization could cause unofficial policy to change like the breeze.

 

The Park Service is a little different than most other land agencies. Park Superintendents can make law with the stroke of a pen. They tend to be driven at the park level and suported higher up. This is in contrast to say the Forest Service. A local forest does very little outside the direction it is given from the Regional Forester who gets his orders from Washington.

 

I do not doubt that there are approved caches on park lands, but this is not with the blessing of the national office. There are a few ways this could happen, either the Superintendent or Chief Ranger are unaware of any prohibiting policy, or they choose to ignore it and the regional office is unaware or chooses to look the other way. Another possibility is that geocaching would be allowed under the enabling legislation. I could very well see this in Parks or Recreation areas that were specifically set aside for recreation opportunities.

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Ok I found this spot in norther wisconsin but is in a hunting spot owned by the deparptment of fish and wildlife and the deparptment of the interrior. Now I know the web site says no placing them on wild life reserves and/or reservations. But this is a public hunting hiking bird watching area that is called a BIRD PRODUCTION ZONE. now i dont know what that means any way i sent out an e-mail to the DOTI and will hopefully get a responce. What do you think about the placement and or the no placement on reserves.

Sure! Its all fun and games until a yellow-crested Taiga Flycatcher chokes to death on a TB!

 

B):wub::mad:B)

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Just placeing it and then seeing what happens is a bad idea in my eyes. Here in ny up till reacently the DEC wouldnt let us place and the state park services werent to kean on the idea. But after alot of hard work from many people in the cacheing comunity we got the policys reversed. Now we can place in DEC lands and state park with the parks service they modified the placment rules a little but they were fair and worked with us and we worked with them.

 

Now say theres cachers in your state and there trying to do the same thing and the day before a meeting or something someone places a illegal cache and they find out about it. We'll that could shead bad light on us. The cacher goes in say we have no prob fallowing some rules ect.. park offical we'll how can I belive you you dont even fallow the rules on the gc.com site how can I belive you'll fallow modified rules.

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I've seen the way some people hunt over there...

I wouldn't go looking for a cache in a place where it's a designated hunting ground with anything less than a Leopard tank equiped with a remote controlled grab claw.

 

OK, this is OT but still funny -

 

After boot camp in 1971 the Navy sent me to California. I was a small-town Southern boy, driving a hopped-up '34 Ford, and had little room for all my stuff, so I had my folks ship it.

 

After getting settled in out there the urge to go hunting come on me, and I wrote my dad to ship my guns.

 

While waiting, I ran across a Game Warden at a gas station. He mentioned that he'd been hunting that weekend and I asked him what he got.

 

He said "I got off a couple of brush shots but didn't find anything".

 

You could have knocked this redneck boy over with a feather! Sure I had heard this officer wrong I asked what he meant. He said "Well, I saw the bushes move and shot into 'em, but couldn't find anything there".

 

I called my dad that night and said "Hold the guns - there's no way in hell I am hunting out here!"

 

And I never did!

Edited by TheAlabamaRambler
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woops

Now the Oacla National Forest which is right next door has more than 100 cache's in it. This area is also used for hunting. It is controled by the NPS. I cache there almost every weekend with my kids. I don't want to go to the big house... :mad:

You're safe. It's not managed by the NPS, or the USFWS, it's managed by the US Dept. Of Agriculture (USDA) Forest Service.

National Parks, National Forests, and National Wildlife Refuges are all managed by different organizations and should not be confused with one another. A quick google search of the Forest Service website shows they are generally PRO-geocaching, unlike the NPS or USFWS.

Edited by Mopar
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