+WR7X Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 OK, I understand you can't put a cache in a National Park. Does this apply to a National Recreation Area? I'm guessing that if the land is at all controlled by the NPS, it's off limits. Is this correct? Quote Link to comment
+GEO*Trailblazer 1 Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 So far as long as the Cache "is not" that is "is not" in a Wilderness or Protected Area, Missouri say's ok and Arkansas says that you need a permit and that decision is being handled by the Legislature very soon we will recieve an e-mail to this once it is completed so far we have had a good repore with the Parks.It always pays to let the Local Reps. know who and what you are doing you will see that they almost all like our sport as much as we do as well as the Tourism it draws to each State. WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS *GEOTRYAGAIN* http://www.msnusers.com/MissouriTrails Quote Link to comment
+Mopar Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 If its a National Park, how does what state its in effect anything???? Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon. Quote Link to comment
+GEO*Trailblazer 1 Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 I am just stating what the facts are as I know them here. I canot speak for each State that is a matter for discussion I guess.Federal is The Public Lands as I understand it and As long as we use it for a recreational use I see no difference between the States it is a Federal Issue??? WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS *GEOTRYAGAIN* http://www.msnusers.com/MissouriTrails Quote Link to comment
+The Leprechauns Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 If I can put aside the debate about federalism, and just answer the original question, the guidelines (and all prior discussions of this issue) state that "any" land "administered" by the National Park Service is off-limits. That includes National Parks, National Historic Sites, National Battlefields, National Monuments and National Recreation Areas, but NOT Bureau of Land Management areas or National Forests. If in doubt, look it up and find out who manages the area you're interested in. Here is a link to a list of NPS-administered properties. x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x I was formerly employed by the Department of Redundancy Department, but I don't work there anymore. Quote Link to comment
+Mopar Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Trailblazer # 1:I am just stating what the facts are as I know them here. I canot speak for each State that is a matter for discussion I guess.Federal is The Public Lands as I understand it and As long as we use it for a recreational use I see no difference between the States it is a Federal Issue??? WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS *GEOTRYAGAIN* http://www.msnusers.com/MissouriTrails Yes, National Parks are different then State Parks. The agency that adminsters National Parks has a "No geocache" policy across the board. Doesn't matter what state, since they are federally owned, not state. Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon. Quote Link to comment
+GEO*Trailblazer 1 Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 For all States to become a State they had to surrender all their Lands to the Federal Government to become a State.The BLM is the Authority of these Lands.And holds the Title to it.??????? www.es.blm.gov/index.html www.blm.gov/gcdb www.adec.edu/clemson/papers/campbell-chapter1.html WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS *GEOTRYAGAIN* http://www.msnusers.com/MissouriTrails [This message was edited by Trailblazer # 1 on March 17, 2003 at 09:59 PM.] [This message was edited by Trailblazer # 1 on March 17, 2003 at 10:01 PM.] Quote Link to comment
jjtrails Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 I don't know about the rest of the country, but in California (Southern) we have adventure passes (A $5.00 shake down for going into the forest) I don't think it is illegal to place something, but you might get popped for parking in the forest,or near, without one. Ride Far! Quote Link to comment
+Mopar Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 quote:Originally posted by jjtrails:I don't know about the rest of the country, but in California (Southern) we have adventure passes (A $5.00 shake down for going into the forest) I don't think it is illegal to place something, but you might get popped for parking in the forest,or near, without one. Ride Far! Those are for state parks, not national, correct? Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon. Quote Link to comment
+Searching_ut Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 In national parks, and recreation areas, Federal laws often overide local state laws. ie. you can't carry a loaded firearm even if you have a concealed carry permit for that state. In Utah, we have state parks, virtually all having fees for entry. There are however state park passes available if you intend to use these areas a lot over the course of the year. We also have 5 national parks, and many national recreation areas. Most of them have fees, and once again you can get yearly national park passes. A few years back, the national forest service also started charging use fees for many of the national forests in the area. You don't have to pay it to drive through them on major highways, but to stop, picinic, hike etc. requires you to pay a "use" fee, collected by the Federal govement through the national forest service. I probably spent somewhere around $120 just hiking national forests last year. Plus the money I spent on the National park pass and state park pass. While the land may be public, it's only available to the public to use for a fee... Quote Link to comment
+shawhh Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 depends on whether the recreation area is administered by nps or the national forest service (nfs). no caches on nps lands. here in n.c. there are many caches on nfs lands, including recreation areas, and there seem to be no issues that i'm aware of. -harry Quote Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 The NPS has traditionally allowed caches. Just not "Geo-Caches". Case in point is a treck across the lava flows that make up craters of the moon. The hikers - with permission- cached water for their trek in advance. Call it a one time cache, with a worse problem if it was shot up or plundered. Quote Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 Originally posted by The Leprechauns:If I can put aside the debate about federalism, and just answer the original question, the guidelines (and all prior discussions of this issue) state that "any" land "administered" by the National Park Service is off-limits. That includes National Parks, National Historic Sites, National Battlefields, National Monuments and National Recreation Areas, but NOT Bureau of Land Management areas or National Forests. If in doubt, look it up and find out who manages the area you're interested in. Here is a link to http://www.nps.gov/parks.html. QUOTE] For every rule there is an exception. I've got tentative permisison to place a cache in a national monumnet. The portion in question is administered by the BLM. This is due to the monument being about quadrupled in size. Thus the BLM now jointly administers the area with the National Park Service. The only thing that has kept me from getting the cache out there is that the area is remote and I used to live 250 miles away. Now I'm close so expect a cache this spring. Wherever you go there you are. Wherever you go there you are. Quote Link to comment
+erik88l-r Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 You can do like I did. I applied for a Special Use Permit for geocaching in a National Recreation Area. The administrative fee was unfortunately $100. They studied the material I provided and confered with their peers at other NPS administered sites. I now have a permit to place temporary physical caches (over a weekend event), but the permanent caches are restricted to virtual caches. They admitted that the number of virtual caches already in existance influenced their decision to take this route. So it was Catch 22. They also said that current laws mandate that they do an environmental impact assessment / study whenever anything is asked to be placed in a park. Maybe that's backlash from the Alaska Pipeline or something, but that was cited as a reason why they'd be unable to approve physical caches. It's possible that if enough people keep asking politely, whether they apply for a permit or not, we will eventually get their attention and they will see this as an acceptable use of the park. ~erik~ [This message was edited by ~erik~ on March 18, 2003 at 11:20 AM.] Quote Link to comment
+Mad_Hatter Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 In southern California the adventure pass costs $5 for a day pass and $30 for an annual pass. It covers parking in four national forests. I believe that the Northwest Forest Pass is similar. Quote Link to comment
+Whidbey Walk Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Mad_Hatter:I believe that the Northwest Forest Pass is similar. Yes, it is. Quote Link to comment
jfitzpat Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 Adventure Passes in California are for several National Forests, not National Parks. There is a difference. Since a number of popular climbing spots require them (ex. Williamson, Tahquitz, Suicide), you can find endless threads complaining about the fees on rock climbing forums (ex. www.rockclimbing.com ) -jjf Quote Link to comment
+jeannine Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 quote: They also said that current laws mandate that they do an environmental impact assessment / study whenever anything is asked to be placed in a park. Maybe that's backlash from the Alaska Pipeline or something, but that was cited as a reason why they'd be unable to approve physical caches. That's a pretty harsh determination!! You don't want to get involved in doing an environmental site assesment (at least in NYS) ..you'll be gathering info from both state and federal agenies to determine if you will be impacting endangered species, wetlands, watersheds, traffic study, noise study, visual impact study, archeological (NYSOHPR requires a Phase 1 archeological study on any site which simply has no archeological data listed) ...etc.... so when all is said and done you'll be spending $10,000 in engineering fees to place a cache! Quote Link to comment
+GEO*Trailblazer 1 Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 I opened another can of worms....I have not been out West in a # of years now and the last time I was they were trying to get these things passed, that is fee requirements..I have also been out of touch for a number of years due to my disability.And have only recently on a larger scale been able to see all the things or even now the current affairs in that neck of the Woods.I really did not realize what has really become of things since I lived out there,until now.I guess we really have it made here I won't go into great detail.Only pay fee's here in designated campgrounds.. WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS *GEOTRYAGAIN* http://www.msnusers.com/MissouriTrails Quote Link to comment
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