Salvation Army Contest - Bad Idea

[+Racer and Boo]

It is of my personal opinion that the Salvation Army contest is a bad idea.

 

1. Geocahing is a family orientated hobby/sport. This contest is pushing ONE religious belief on to a free/open sport.

 

2. Being a religious organization, their stand on gay/lesbian rights is horrible. Check out www.hrc.org and search Salvation Army.

 

3. Their are MANY organizations that do good, if not better work in the community. Why this one? what qualified them to hold this contest?

 

Until the Salvation Army changes their views on gay/lesbian rights - I am "Kicking The Kettle"!

[+briansnat]

Until the Salvation Army changes their views on gay/lesbian rights - I am "Kicking The Kettle"!

 

Intolerence goes both ways I see.

[+junglehair]

I'm with Racer and Boo on this one. I usually trash out religious materials when I find them in caches.

[+Gas Guys]

They bought TB's and hid them, and there isn't even anyone at the cache ready to put a gun to your head to make you take it.

 

I'm not going to ask every TB owner what their world view is before I take the bug - I just move them to where they want to go.

 

If you don't like the "mission" of the bug, just don't move it. Pretty simple.

[Golden_Spike]

sorry to be out of the loop, but what exactly is the Salvation Army doing?

[+Gas Guys]

Salvation Army Thread

[+southdeltan]

I'm with Racer and Boo on this one. I usually trash out religious materials when I find them in caches.

I generally trash out logbooks that have red, blue, green, or yellow covers.

 

Those items offend me and I don't have the self control to ignore them.

 

sd

[+Team Dougherty]

What contest?

 

Never mind. I found it

Edited April 26, 2005 by Team Dougherty

[+junglehair]

Would you feel the same if they were Koran TBs being distributed and promoted by GC.com?

[+cache_test_dummies]

What contest?

Kettle Cache

[magellan315]

As far as I am concerned if the local chapter of the Salvation Army wants to plan an event such as this to raise funds then they are free to do so. Anyone who does not want to participate is also free to do so.

 

As a Jew I have no problems with the Salvation Army, my grandmother lived 10 years in a very nice Salvation Army residential hotel in NYC, no one tried to convert her and they were very respectful of all of their residents, not just the christian ones.

 

Having lived the last ten years in the South I can tell you that once you get outside of a small percentage of the major cities in the United States, you have to deal with a predominantly christian based society. I may not be happy with all of their beliefs, then again not all the people I knew where happy with mine. I'd rather try to coexsist in the hopes that some day we can reach a more equitable agreement than dictate how they should live their lives.

[+Maingray]

Seems fine to me, all the better for these large organisations to be aware of / promote geocaching.

[+Mad Cat]

Yep, bad idea or not a salvation army cache in your state might help when that state like "South carolina" wants to ban geocaching, this would be like banning the SA, hummm maybe we got more Non-profit groups involved we could have a trump card when the Anti-fun police start dropping laws on banning our "SPORT", lets get the ACLU, the NAACP, Police officer of america union, maybe the Army will be a sponser. there you go, it might be a good idea.

[magellan315]

Would you feel the same if they were Koran TBs being distributed and promoted by GC.com?

Not sure how a Salvation Army bell equals a religious icon. And how is GC.com "promoting" the Salvation Army by letting them by TB tags. Anyone can by a TB tag and attach anything they want to it.

Edited April 26, 2005 by magellan315

[+southdeltan]

Would you feel the same if they were Koran TBs being distributed and promoted by GC.com?

I would have no problem with it.

 

Regular geocachers send religious TBs out all the time. Big deal. If I can help move them, I do. If I can't, I leave them in the cache.

 

sd

[mufasa1023]

I personally think that GC should be free from religious interaction, as the U.S. government is SUPPOSED to be. I mean, does anyone remember what it was called when the church interacted with everything?

 

the dark ages.....

 

regardless of which religion, no matter of how virtuous or noble the cause the seperation of church and the ruling body is paramount

[SCP-173]

I generally trash out logbooks that have red, blue, green, or yellow covers.

 

Those items offend me and I don't have the self control to ignore them.

 

sd

Your reply is unrelated and utterly ridiculous. Junglehair is just doing her duty by helping caches stick to the guidlines.

 

Solicitations are also off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

 

I guess this means that the "rules" can be broken if you have money?

[magellan315]

sd

Your reply is unrelated and utterly ridiculous. Junglehair is just doing her duty by helping caches stick to the guidlines.

 

Solicitations are also off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

 

I guess this means that the "rules" can be broken if you have money?

What cache, there is no Salavation Army cache on GC.com. They have sponsored a fundraising event using privately placed caches that will not be listed on GC.com

[SCP-173]

So advertising on the site, that everyone sees, is different?

[+Gas Guys]

I generally trash out logbooks that have red, blue, green, or yellow covers.

 

Those items offend me and I don't have the self control to ignore them.

 

sd

Your reply is unrelated and utterly ridiculous. Junglehair is just doing her duty by helping caches stick to the guidlines.

 

The guidelines say that the cache can't have a religious theme. They say nothing about religious items being place in the cache. Of course every once in a while you can see a good forum fight about religious items...

[+carleenp]

There is no cache listed. The Salvation Army is holding their own event (not listed here) and purchased travel bugs and advertising. If someone dislikes the idea of it, I suggest writing to the Salvation Army since it really isn't a GC.com listing issue. Unless you think GC.com should limit who it will sell travel bugs and advertising to? I don't really see a reason for them to do that and can just imagine the complaints that would arise if they suddenly said they would restrict those things. But I suppose someone will always complain either way.

[+welch]

It is of my personal opinion that the Salvation Army contest is a bad idea.

so are you against the released redbell Tbs?

the event in Virginia?

or just having anything to do with the salvation army in general?

[+southdeltan]

I generally trash out logbooks that have red, blue, green, or yellow covers.

 

Those items offend me and I don't have the self control to ignore them.

 

sd

Your reply is unrelated and utterly ridiculous. Junglehair is just doing her duty by helping caches stick to the guidlines.

 

Solicitations are also off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

 

I guess this means that the "rules" can be broken if you have money?

Perhaps YOU should read the guidelines. There are no guidelines against religious based items in caches, that includes travelbugs.

 

You should also read the fine print about solicitation. It's not soliciting if they're working with Groundspeak.

 

sd

[magellan315]

So advertising on the site, that everyone sees, is different?

Yes advertising is different, you have to pay to have an advetisement placed. And just because you write a check does not garuntee you will get an ad on the website. Clearly this was reviewed by the folks at GC.com before they agreed to it and they have no problem with it, neither do I.

[Keystone]

I personally think that GC should be free from religious interaction, as the U.S. government is SUPPOSED to be.  I mean, does anyone remember what it was called when the church interacted with everything? 

 

the dark ages.....

 

regardless of which religion, no matter of how virtuous or noble the cause the seperation of church and the ruling body is paramount

The last I checked, Groundspeak was not a branch of the United States Government.

 

I think Magellan315 has it right. There's no caches being hidden in violation of the listing guidelines. An organization put together an event on another site, working with Playtime Inc. They also bought some travel bugs. As Southdeltan noted, there are plenty of travel bugs out there that promote one agenda or another. Unlike geocaches, TB's aren't reviewed for content before they're launched. If you encounter one of these TB's and are bothered by its express or implied message, don't pick it up.

 

Beginning last week, Groundspeak provided some limited advertisement for a month or so. You can easily ignore the ads and choose not to participate in the contest.

Edited April 26, 2005 by Keystone Approver

[+Yamahammer]

The 21st century and we still get offended by what someone believes or doesn't believe. And then there was last week when someone was asking the racial makeup of GC. What difference does it make what nationality anyone is that enjoys GC?? It's like TV. If you don't like, turn on another channel. If you don't like the SA caches, don't go there. If you don't like McD's but like Jack in the Box, go to Jack in the Box. If you don't like RED but like blue, wear freakin' blue.

 

No one can, within reason, expect GC to be narrow minded on who and what is allowed or who might be offended for participating with this sport. All sports are games. Games are to be played. Playing is fun. See the circle?

 

I guess what I'm saying in a long winded way is, if you don't like it, start your own site and game and set the rules the way you want them set. Whether you do or not, doesn't make a hill of beans to me. And if you want to keep breathing fire on here, doesn't matter to me either. But you open yourself up to others opinions and you have to respect them as well.

 

Hang in there my friends!

[+AuntieWeasel]

I think it's pretty cool. I was bummed to see it was a local event.

 

I'm unreligious to the point of antireligious. Proselytizing annoys the bejesus out of me (if you'll pardon the expression). But the SA is one of the few charities I will contribute to, at least in part because it's one of the few where nobody's getting rich. The money goes where it's needed, most of it gets where it's supposed to, and if they tack a boring message on to it...well, everybody should have to work for their supper. If we're ever going to have less government (one thing, at least, I can be devout about), we're going to have to have more charity.

 

As for their involvement here, looks to me like they just bought ad-space and some TBs. I'd be upset if Groundspeak sold ads for...I dunno...Kitten Squishers International, or the Society for Slapping Old Ladies or something, but anything else is good, old-fashioned, cheerful capitalism.

[+StarBrand]

I'm with Racer and Boo on this one. I usually trash out religious materials when I find them in caches.

Just what exactly constitues a "religious material" to you ??!!!?? a cross? a star of david? a bookmark with a bible verse? a bookmark with a buddhist saying? Wow - if it offends you just take something else and leave the materials for others that might like it. Trashing it out shows complete disrespect. I Don't remove items that fail the test of being a religious material.

 

As for the OP:

If the Salvation Army wants to buy advertising - so be it. Keeps things running for all of us users out here. Just because they don't conform to your line of thinking doesn't make them bad.

 

Just a local project spending some money here - don't make more of it then that.

[+Renegade Knight]

...

It is of my personal opinion that the Salvation Army contest is a bad idea.

 

Excellent use of the bold feature.

 

1.  Geocahing is a family orientated hobby/sport.  This contest is pushing ONE religious belief on to a free/open sport.

 

Yes geocaching is. I also see lots of parents take their kids to church. That must be family oriented as well. Most religions have a spread the word angle to them. Tough nuts if you you can't 'just say no' and accept that people have beliefs and share them just like you shared yours in this thread.

 

2.  Being a religious organization, their stand on gay/lesbian rights is horrible. Check out www.hrc.org and search Salvation Army.

 

Since people deserve rights and not the fetish (or behavior if you prefer) they choose to identify themselves with (I don't march in Hetro Pride demontrations for example) I don't have any more issue with their stand on the fetish than I do the fact that they would not turn someone who was gay/homeless away who was in need of help.

 

3.  Their are MANY organizations that do good, if not better work in the community. Why this one? what qualified them to hold this contest? 

 

Mostly becase it was their idea and the other organizations didn't think of it. Maybe they will later and you can promote them as hard as you bashed the Salvation army.

 

Until the Salvation Army changes their views on gay/lesbian rights - I am "Kicking The Kettle"!

 

Good luck with that. I used to hate bell ringers. They drove me nuts. Then this year I saw them being ignored but standing in the cold for less money than a panhandler might make all to help with something they believed in. After I realized that freezing their butt off was part of their gift to help. I lightened up my attitude and gave a little more and said hello even if I didn't happen to have any money on me.

[+Racer and Boo]

This is a great thread! I have been enjoying reading other peoples opinions as well! Welcome to AMERICA - where we can have the freedom of expression! (and opinions).

 

I am not asking to change YOUR views - only presenting information - awareness..take it as you will.

 

Cache On!

[+AtoZ]

FIrst and fore most why did the OP have to start a new thread on this when there already one???? Well I really want to say something about peoples misinterpertation of the Constition but this is not the place. Maybe the Off Topics Forum. Finally The SA contest is a PRIVATELY sponsered EVENT. You are welcome to attend or not so big deal. If you don't like it then exercise you freedom and ignore it you don't have to bash it with .....

 

cheers

[+AuntieWeasel]

Welcome to AMERICA - where we can have the freedom of expression! (and opinions).

While there is no doubt the 'net has taken much of its tone and timbre from American society (no doubt as a result of having been built initially from our lovely US military dollars), it would be parochial to describe cyberspace as America.

[+junglehair]

I'm with Racer and Boo on this one.  I usually trash out religious materials when I find them in caches.

Just what exactly constitues a "religious material" to you ??!!!?? a cross? a star of david? a bookmark with a bible verse? a bookmark with a buddhist saying? Wow - if it offends you just take something else and leave the materials for others that might like it. Trashing it out shows complete disrespect. I Don't remove items that fail the test of being a religious material.

I trash out all forms of blatant advertising, whether it's a pamphlet for a local business, or a church bulletin from 3 years ago. These are not trade items, they are trash. I don't think people are going to caches looking for back issues of the Watchtower. Perhaps I'm wrong.

 

And no, I would not trash out a cross or a star of david or anything else that might actually have value to someone else. I respect your right to believe in which ever deity you choose, and expect others to respect my right to be a non-believer.

[+Mad Cat]

Hey i put a cheap dollar store bible in one of my own caches, and it didnt hurt anyone, its still there after 6 months but that darn mormon, later day saints TB has come and gone from that cache at least 5 times.

 

Just Keep on , keeping on !!! and remember My bologna has a first name, But seriously folks, The moose should of told yall outside, The park is closed.

[+High-Tech Redneck]

[

2.  Being a religious organization, their stand on gay/lesbian rights is horrible. Check out www.hrc.org and search Salvation Army.

 

Since people deserve rights and not the fetish (or behavior if you prefer) they choose to identify themselves with (I don't march in Hetro Pride demontrations for example) I don't have any more issue with their stand on the fetish than I do the fact that they would not turn someone who was gay/homeless away who was in need of help.

 

.

I hate to do this being from Idaho and all but I couldn't agree more.

[+sbell111]

The last I checked, Groundspeak was not a branch of the United States Government. ...

Don't tell everyone of the plot to make the United States government a small branch of the powerful Groundspeak organization. It's a secret!

[+Allen_L]

I trash out all forms of blatant advertising, whether it's a pamphlet for a local business, or a church bulletin from 3 years ago.

I never "trash out" anything. If I find something in geocache that I don’t think belongs there. I trade it out. Doesn’t matter if it is advertising, porno magazine, knife or anything else. Like all trade items once I have it then I can do as I please, I can keep it, trade it, give it to someone else or throw it away it is my choice.

[+junglehair]

I trash out all forms of blatant advertising, whether it's a pamphlet for a local business, or a church bulletin from 3 years ago.

I never "trash out" anything. If I find something in geocache that I don’t think belongs there. I trade it out. Doesn’t matter if it is advertising, porno magazine, knife or anything else. Like all trade items once I have it then I can do as I please, I can keep it, trade it, give it to someone else or throw it away it is my choice.

That's a very good practice to do. I generally do that for utility knives, lighters, food, and other things that I don't feel are appropriate/safe.

[magellan315]

I never "trash out" anything. If I find something in geocache that I don’t think belongs there. I trade it out. Doesn’t matter if it is advertising, porno magazine, knife or anything else. Like all trade items once I have it then I can do as I please, I can keep it, trade it, give it to someone else or throw it away it is my choice.

Thats the way I handle it to.

[ATMouse]

The SA is truly a wonderful group. As a national disaster volunteer (NOT with the SA), I can tell you I have witnessed their work and it is humanitarian and non-judgemental. I can understand the reason for the contest, too - all the not-for-profits- are being squeezed to the limit. Some resourceful and clever fundraising group came up with this.

 

I tend agree with the idea: if you don't want to play, don't. (And are they putting out religious verbage into caches? That doesn't sound like the folks I've met.....)

 

The idea of trading out stuff of that nature is thought-provoking for me, at least.

[+Wacka]

I got my $300 tax rebate a few weeks after 9/11. I decided I was going to give it to a charity that wsa helping the at Ground Zero. With the problems of the United Way and Red Cross money possibly not goig toNYC, but staying local, I was looking for another charity to donate to.

I saw that that only 2-3 days after the attack, the SA had already set up massive amounts of water, food, etc for the rescue workers. I decided to send my $300 directly to the Manhattan chapter of the SA. Got a nice lertter from them too!

[cexshun]

While I can see the OP's point, there are some great organizations that don't hold the same beliefs I do that I think are great. Look at the Boy Scouts. They refuse admitance to gays. Yet they are a fantastic organization.

 

But hey, it's your right to boycott them. Just as I will never give a penny to any AIDS organizations.

[+briansnat]

The SA is truly a wonderful group. As a national disaster volunteer (NOT with the SA), I can tell you I have witnessed their work and it is humanitarian and non-judgemental. I can understand the reason for the contest, too - all the not-for-profits- are being squeezed to the limit. Some resourceful and clever fundraising group came up with this.

 

I agree. I've known for years that they've done a lot of good and this thread made me do a little research and I'm more impressed than ever. They're over in the area stricken by the tsumani providing aid to victims regardless of religion.

 

As far as their being anti gay, I see no instance of their denying services based on sexual orientation and in fact they have been known to provide healthcare services to the gay community.

 

It seems that the gay community expects them to provide benefits to domestic partners of gay employees in violation of their religious beliefs, which is the root of their crusade against the SA.

[+Metaphor]

As with the many of the posters above, I don't see where Groundspeak or the Salvation Army has crossed any lines. Groundspeak is not the sponsor, nor even the listing site for this private event, and as I looked at the link, I saw no proselytizing on the Salvation Army's part. Should there be religious-based caches preaching a particular denomination? No. Should religion and/or religious materials be banned from geocaching trades? No.

 

I once saw a variation of the "Question Authority" bumper sticker that said "Question Authority Including Your Own. If you are offended at someone else's rights to an opinion, maybe you should question your own attitudes first.

 

Kitten Squishers International

Now, Auntie Weasel, can you send me the address for this organization? See, my wife has this cat...

[+GrizzlyJohn]

Hey gc.com gets to take advertising from who they want. Their logo is their property that they get to sell, lease, rent, etc. how they see fit.

 

Having the Salvation Army doing what they are doing is not a lot different than a private GPSr maker buying ads and running a contest. If you thought a particular brand was a piece of crap and they did this would it cause you to become angry with gc.com? Or some people have problems with certain companies because they supported one candidate or another for president and they won't go into those stores. Fair enough -- but if that company bought ads here would you blast gc.com for taking their money?

 

I guess I do question if gc.com would allow a for profit business to run the same kind of contest with an entry fee. Don't know for sure, but again it is their business. I have often said that people here need to vote with their feet if it causes them a problem. Or at least with their checkbook and don't buy memberships or products. It is a business and the bottom line is what counts.

 

On religious items that may offend. I suspect everyone has something they might find offensive yet many others don't. So who would be the worst person, someone who is offended by some religious article and tosses it out or someone that is offended by a political belief that is very very unpopular and tosses out an item that is based around that? I think they should just both grow up and leave the crap alone if they don't like it. How hard is that? Oh I forgot -- there are many people that do believe their way is the only way, everyone else is wrong and they should be shown no respect because they have a different point of view and because I don't like their point of view I get to throw away the stuff that I don't agree with because after all I am right and they are wrong so screw them.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

I have a friend who would literally run his car out of gas before buying gas from an Exxon because of the Valdez accident.

 

Go figure. No telling what cobwebs cloud some men's minds!

[+Mopar]

Well I really want to say something about peoples misinterpertation of the Constition but this is not the place.  Maybe the Off Topics Forum.  Finally The SA contest is a PRIVATELY sponsered EVENT.  You are welcome to attend or not so big deal.  If you don't like it then exercise you freedom and ignore it you don't have to bash it with .....

 

cheers

I agree! I'll go ahead and say what I suspect AtoZ wouldn't. Where exactly in the Constitution is this "separation of church and state" thing? Also, anyone who truly believes in such a separation should practice what they preach by sending me all those green slips of paper the Treasury Dept prints up that have "In God We Trust" printed on them.

That said, this isn't the federal govt, this is a privately owned website. The only rights, rules, and laws here are the ones Jeremy sends down from Mount Groundspeak.

Edited April 26, 2005 by Mopar

[+Konnarock Kid & Marge]

Pardon my politically incorrect message but AMEN to mopar!

[+Apple Dumpling Gangg]

The section of the constitution regarding the seperation of church and state was designed to prevent the government from establishing an official religion, like the church of England for example. It was never meant to prevent any religion in government. Study the history and see how much religion played in the foundation of the U.S. government.

 

I just get annoyed by those complaining about the intolerance of religion, yet being intolerant of any religion themselves. That is just plain hypocritical. Pushing anti-religion is just as bad as pushing religion in my opinion.

[+briansnat]

The section of the constitution regarding the seperation of church and state was designed to prevent the government from establishing an official religion, like the church of England for example.  It was never meant to prevent any religion in government.  Study the history and see how much religion played in the foundation of the U.S. government.

 

I just get annoyed by those complaining about the intolerance of religion, yet being intolerant of any religion themselves.  That is just plain hypocritical.  Pushing anti-religion is just as bad as pushing religion in my opinion. 

 

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...."

 

Certain people like to quote the first part, but totally forget the second.

Edited April 26, 2005 by briansnat