Exceptions To The Rule

[+Paklid]

Could you share some examples where local National Wildlife Reserve districts have allowed virtual caches?

 

Or perhaps a virtual stage (on NWR managed property) in a multi that eventually finishes with a physical cache outside of land managed by the NWR.

 

What I'm looking for are not examples of the virtual caches themselves, rather which districts might be more lenient in their approach to allowing these virtual caches or stages.

[+Stunod]

I never could grasp how you can ban a virtual cache from public property...

Edited April 21, 2005 by Stunod

[+Hemlock]

Here in California there is no limitation on virtual caches in National Parks or National Wildlife Refuges. Any place that attempts to ban virtual caches is just being silly (or they are in SC).

[WH]

I never could grasp how you can ban a virtual cache from public property...

If the coordinates lead to a delicate area where the they don't want alot of foot traffic.

[Keystone]

In Pennsylvania I've listed a virtual cache in a Wildlife Refuge after a physical cache near the location had to be removed. Permission was not an issue. The virtual cache target is something that's featured on the Refuge's website and there are hiking trails for visitors to use in order to get there. So long as a waypoint doesn't take a hiker to someplace where they are not allowed to be, there's no difference if that hiker happens to have a GPS in their hand, and takes a picture of a cool historical point of interest. I can be carrying a GPS and a digital camera and yet not be a geocacher, but rather a birdwatcher, etc. Do birdwatchers need permission to hike on a designated trail in a National Wildlife Refuge?

[+MDAgent]

Wow, I was having trouble grasping what a virtual cache was. In what way is virtual caching banned? Does the government hunt down anyone in a National Park with a GPS!!!!????

[tiber]

Well, currently I can tell you what it is not. In the words of the Great Keystone Approver towards my virt:

 

Geocaching.com has gotten much stricter on virtual cache submissions than in the past. Physical caches are the basis of the activity. Virtual caches were created due to the inaccessibility of caching in areas that discourage it.

 

Be advised there is no precedent for placing caches. This means that the past approval of a similar cache in and of itself is not a valid justification for the approval of a new cache. The vast majority of the virtual caches you have found or heard of are "grandfathered in," i.e., approved before the guidelines for virtual caches were revised. I know that these grandfathered caches do cause some confusion: Sorry about that.

 

I appreciate your enthusiasm and encourage you to hide caches. It is only by the efforts of interested cache placers that Geocaching will continue to spread far and wide. However, please recognize we are only asking your cooperation in maintaining a reasonable standard in cache placements. Some options for you:

1 - Place a regular, physical cache here. You could place a physical cache at street level and simply mention all the rest of this stuff in the description - after toning down the commerciality (albeit inadvertent) of the decsription.

2 - Often a micro cache can be readily placed at or near the same spot submitted as a virtual cache.

3 - In places where a physical cache would be inappropriate, an offset physical cache (aka a multi) might be a possibility. With an offset cache, information already appearing at the site can be used to generate coordinates leading the hunter to a traditional cache located elsewhere. You could direct people to the location and have them collect information from it (be creative!). This information could then be put together in such a way as to arrive at the coordinates for the final cache. This way, people get to visit the location you have in mind and at the same time have a container to hunt - the best of both worlds.

 

Would it be possible for you to set this cache up in one of these ways?

 

(The quote isn't complete, it leaves off the first paragraph and the contact information fluff -- basically, things specific to my virt).

 

I'm sort of intrigued by the idea of the virt though, especially because I'm playing with the idea that a virt can be something other then "find the ammo can". Lets say, for instance (and this is not GC.com canon) that in order to claim a cache, you have the geocacher pick up one piece of litter and photograph themselves putting it in the appropriate trashcan. The obvious argument is that "theres no cache to find". Well, sorta. The objectives become slightly different, and the idea is specific to a virtual because I felt that making a cache+requirement would get the cache largely ignored or snub geocachers who didn't feel like accomplishing the objective. Or the argument would come up that there was no litter to pick up but they found the cache anyway (and there's no way to verify the honesty of the statement).

 

My cache idea -- I'm pretty sure it's not getting approved but I felt like giving it a shot -- was to lead the cachers to an interesting cultural item in chinatown. It's an underground market in philly. The cultural gap prevents me from placing a cache there, which is pretty much my only claim to a virtual within the GC rules, but the rules of the cache state that the cacher must enter the market and photograph an item there. The idea was to try to expose people to something they might pass over or not know about. In short, the "ammo can" has been replaced by the objective, which represents the reward. In this way, the rift between finding the cache and actually enjoying the area the cache is in seems smoothed over.

 

But that's my two cents. There's a lot of virtuals out there that simply are nice areas which get enough traffic from the locals that an ammocan wouldn't survive. In my specific cache's case, I didn't think I could explain the concept of geocaching in a way that the people would understand and I felt it was respectful to local culture to make it a virtual. Minimize the impact, so to speak. This might also pave the way for virts at museums, or digs, or other sites where there's an important or interesting item, but actually putting a cache into it would be a breach of conduct.

[+Paklid]

So what I'm hearing is that at least in California and Pennsylvania the local NWR districts are allowing virtual caches or stages in multi's that finish with physical caches on land outside the NWR.

 

The reason I'm asking is that in Minnesota, the policy is NO GEOCACHING of any sort on NWR managed property. It would seem to me that as long as the location of the coordinates don't cause cachers to break any rules for the area (eg, stay on trails when that's appropriate), that there should be no distinction between caching or any old Joe going for a hike in the reserve. I told the local area manager that there were some local districts out there across the country that were allowing virtuals. He asked me for examples.

 

Any others?

[Keystone]

I wish to state for the record that I am not the author of the particular note that tiber attributes to me. I did not review his cache.

 

The reviewer's note customized for tiber's cache page has absolutely no bearing on the issue of virtual caches in National Wildlife Refuges. Each target is considered on its own merits, and a large area where physical caches are not permitted is evaluated very differently from a virtual cache submission in an urban environment.

 

For the guidelines governing virtual caches, please look at the summary here and then follow the jump link to the more detailed discussion here. But don't bother memorizing them for the remaining month or two for which they'll be relevant.

[+hydee]

If the lands are open to public use, then I do not see how they could ban a virtual cache.

[bug and snake]

OK KeyMan..... Explain the ' '

 

You started this so out with it.........

Edited April 21, 2005 by bug and snake

[Keystone]

I was referring to the forthcoming new solution for virtuals and locationless caches, which is being discussed in many a forum thread.

[+sbell111]

OK KeyMan.....  Explain the ' '

 

You started this so out with it.........

Jeremy has hinted at changes to allow something like virts and LCs. This all should be unveiled around the end of may, 20XX.

 

edit: Aargh! Again, I failed to proof my speeling until after someone quoted me. One would think that I would learn.

Edited April 21, 2005 by sbell111

[+hydee]

OK KeyMan.....  Explain the ' '

 

You started this so out with it.........

Jeremy has hinted at changes to allow something like virts and LCs. This all should be unvailed around the end of may, 20XX.

sbell11,

 

Did he confirm the 20 part of the 20XX date? I was under the impression we hadn't locked him in to even that yet.

[+sbell111]

[To be read in your best Eeyore voice]

 

I'm ever the optimist, always getting hurt because the world doesn't meet my expectations.

[tiber]

Oops, didn't mean to attribute you to reviewing my cache, I assumed that you were the cache reviewer for PA (the keystone state) and that MissPlaced was the collective mask of the reviewers. My bad.

 

Although I feel like people should be included on the brainstorming process. Is there an open blog or process in a central location for ideas? GC seems more of a community rather then a centralized sport.

[+Lil Devil]

What brainstorming process is this of which you speak?

[Keystone]

Oops, didn't mean to attribute you to reviewing my cache, I assumed that you were the cache reviewer for PA (the keystone state) and that MissPlaced was the collective mask of the reviewers. My bad.

 

Although I feel like people should be included on the brainstorming process. Is there an open blog or process in a central location for ideas? GC seems more of a community rather then a centralized sport.

Yes, there's a brainstorming process, an open blog, a central location for ideas. It's called the Groundspeak Forums, and you're already here!

 

And, there's plenty of other geocaching forums besides this one. You may want to join the Southeastern Pennsylvania Geocachers group, for example.

[+MDAgent]

I'm glad to hear that the discussion on this is continuing. The idea of virtual caching in cache restricted parks and urban areas is terrific, for any number of reasons. It opens up a whole new range of creativity and frankly, a new location and experience is a treasure find in itself. Taking pictures or recording information at the site should be fine proof; like the Polaroid scavenger hunts we used to do as kids.