Reached A Minor Milestone Today

[mloser]

I spent today at the Fort Indiantown Gap Military Reservation (FTIG), north of Lebanon, PA, recovering marks I had not previously been able to. With the help of an escort I was taken to a number of stations I would never have been able to get otherwise, including some behind their firing range (and by firing, I mean A-10s, helicopters, tanks, etc., not just rifles). I also got permission to wander the more public areas of the base and was able to hunt without fear.

 

The overall number of finds was not high, and my success rate was less than usual, but at least I finished the entire base, which has (had) a total of 30 benchmarks. I was able to mark 3 of these as destroyed, with evidence, which I guess is something.

 

This also brings me within a few stations of completing one USGS 7.5 minute quad map, which has been a goal since I started hunting, and up to 488 finds, just few shy of 500.

Edited April 13, 2005 by mloser

[ArtMan]

Wow!

 

How on earth in this uber-paranoid, post-9/11 world did you ever persuade them to let you in, and even provide you an escort?

 

Here in the DC area, bases - such as Ft. Belvoir - that previously had open areas are now pretty well closed off to the public. I'd be afraid to even request access, lest they hear from an ex-girlfriend and I end up with an "open" return ticket to Guantanamo! :-)

 

Seriously, though, what was the procedure like to gain access?

 

-ArtMan-

[evenfall]

Artman,

 

I hate to sound all Aldous Huxley about this but it is a Brave New World. We have discussed the post 9/11 world and it all applies here... In my Father's childhood, he routinely helped my Grandfather clear stumps on their land with Dynamite. Today we should be mindful of the company we are in before even telling such a story. In my work, with asked for permission I have gained access to a lot of things which my sensibilities told me that Permission was more likely a better tact to take, than that of forgiveness.

 

So what can we ask? Well, We can ask anything of any place.

 

Take the time to prepare yourself for the trip you are asking to take. Know for what and where you intend to look. Be prepared to tell the agency this. Bring the real datasheets with you. Know that you may be asked what time and how long this will take place, and if they tell you when you will be granted access, be punctual, be there and be on time as they may take a dim view otherwise. They may only grant you a window of opportunity and may be freeing a person from other responsibilities to escort you. Know that they may not be interested in allowing you access to all of the places you ask. Please keep in mind that we are asking for official permission to do something which is, or ought to be important. So if we do this, let's not just do it to play a game because these agencies and places will see this as being taken advantage of their good natures and then future access will not happen. In other words, We could become our own undoing.

 

Who do we ask? Call them and ask to speak to the Property Manager, the Head of Operations, The Owner, the Manager, the Department head. The Base Commander, the Chief, The Director, what have you. See if you can find your way to the person who can do what you want done. Ask for access to their areas and tell them why you want it and where exactly you need to go. Ask them if you need written permission from them, signed by someone official, in your possession prior to coming, and if so, ask them to mail it to you. If not, ask them for their direct access phone number should you have troubles while on their property. You may later need their help and you may not be able to foretell why. Explain to them that you understand that some of these areas may now be too sensitive to have access to. Ask them if a provided escort would be necessary and can this be arranged. If you are not there to perform an actual Survey, think over how much of a big deal this will be for them. Skip the escort if you feel it would be more than necessary, as a real survey crew may need that escort someday. Offer to provide them links to the real NGS Datasheets that will become available after you file it. Prove to them that you intended to follow through by following through and forwarding the info you helped update along. You will be creating a good will feeling towards future survey access. If they decline to allow access to the areas, then accept the answer they give you. Don't argue nor ask why. Just thank them for considering your inquiry.

 

I can tell you that even NGS Surveyors no longer have free access to stations which were set at an earlier time. If the Navy says no, then No. Too bad so sad. We can substitute the agency known as the Navy for any agency we want. Just because I work in this field gives me no all access pass either. There are simply places we cannot any longer go.

 

Please keep in mind that we are asking for official permission from official organizations to do something which is, or ought to be important. So if we choose to do this, let's not just do it to play a game, or be poor stewards of the permissions we have been granted or future access will not happen. Try to make the times when difficult to obtain access to an otherwise restricted area count, and report what you find to the NGS. Most of all, Try to make the agencies we deal with happy about the experience they had while working with us.

 

I know it all seems either unlikely to be obtained or as easy to accomplish as pie with some common sense. This is but just a few of the ways to try when approaching it. Good Luck!

 

Rob

[mloser]

I am currently enrolled in a GIS class at Penn State World Campus and noticed that one of the other students is a forester at the base, so I emailed him and asked if he could tell me how to get access. He said he wanted to see a few benchmarks so he set up what was needed, and when I arrived today he escorted me, at the request of the range control sargent. It made life much easier because he knew exactly where he was going. After I was done with the stations on the part of the base where they blow stuff up, I went to the maintenance people and they gave me a small tag to wear while I looked other places.

 

Bear in mind that NONE of this base is really fenced in, with the exception of a few secure areas and the helicopter field. Even the firing range is accessible to anyone brave or stupid enough to drive in. It is a PA National Guard base and as such is run by the state of PA, so security is much more lax than on national bases (I am guessing here). Everyone was friendly, if a bit taken back at my odd hobby. Nobody seemed to think I was a threat, and the concern on the range of course was my safety, as there was a sniper squad doing a bit of whatever they do.

 

The base is very open and friendly, and despite the fact that I was seen standing in a couple of open areas with a tape measure and other stuff in hand, nobody did anything other than wave or ignore me.

 

If this hadn't worked for me I would have called the Public Affairs Office (at Belvoir they are at Belvoir PAO and see if they could get me access. If that had been my path chances are I wouldn't have gotten to the firing range. By the way, I would have gone in person, instead of calling. It is much harder to say no to someone's face than it is on the phone.

 

I would say go for it. All they really can do is say no. But you know the feeling around your area more than I do.

[+seventhings]

mloser -

 

Great discussion of an important topic, and kudos on the finds. Also, congrats in advance for you impending 500th find.

 

As I recall, Fort Indiantown is the home of the 28th Infantry Division (PA National Guard), as well as a federal/military prison.

 

I have hunted on Fort Myer (adjacent to Arlington National Cemetery) and Fort Belvoir (ten miles or so south of DC). ArtMan is correct - areas that were formerly open to the public are now regarded as absolutely off-limits, and the areas that were formerly off-limits are now really really way-off-limits. I've managed to gain access to the "public" areas of the posts by virtue of my status as retired military. But I have been unsuccessful in gaining access to any areas that are even slightly sensitive (not for lack of trying).

 

Evenfall's discussion of how to ask for access, how to use it if granted, and how to walk away when denied is dead-on.

 

So, I've stopped trying. My concern with hunting on military installations is not being hassled by the MPs. My concern is that, while the MPs (or whoever) are dealing with me, their attention/resources are not directed to providing security from persons of evil intent, etc.

 

Again, well done on wrangling the opportunity to hunt in an area that is, to most benchmark hunters, well off the beaten path.

 

Will

[+bicknell]

Remember too, bases vary a lot. Getting into Andrews when the preseident is flying to or from isn't going to happen. However I recently visited Ft Monroe in Norfork (which has a great museum, BTW) and you can just drive up, tell them you want to see the museum or the marina, and they wave you in.

 

Now, I'd clear hunting for benchmarks before poking around, but my point is that not all bases are created equal. Hunting for a mark at once may take an act of god, while at another if you have directions and it's in an open area they might just hand you a day pass and wave you in.

 

Of course, always tell them what you're doing.

[mloser]

Will,

Yep, it is the home of the 28th, but no longer home to a prison that I know of. And bases do vary in their degrees of access. I know this base pretty well as I have grown up in the area and there are few off limits places. It is also a pretty small base, so it is managable and decently friendly.

 

As others have mentioned, getting onto private property of any kind to hunt benchmarks is not a constitutional right, and it is always best to ask permission, and even be prepared to not receive it. I was lucky to have an inside person to help me, because there were 5 marks I would not have been able to visit without him, but I was prepared to be sent away when I asked, and that is exactly what I would have done--no sneaking back later to try a grab find.

 

The moral of the story: ASK. If you do you may just get permission. If you don't you definitely won't.