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Hypocrisy In Caching... Surely Not


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Something’s been ‘niggling’ at me for a while now... The fact that I’m being a little bit hypocritical when it comes to setting and hunting caches. Well... a lot hypocritical if I’m going to be truthful.

Does this sound familiar... I’m preparing for a days caching. I check the map on G:UK to pick a ‘cache rich’ area and use GSAK to give me all the caches in... say... a 7 mile radius of the centre co-ordinates. Fifty caches... too many... back to GSAK to filter out virtuals and webcam caches. Forty-five... still too many. Filter out puzzle caches and multi-caches. Now it’s down to thirty... getting better... now filter out micros. Twenty caches... splendid... enough for a comfortable days caching with a couple to spare.

Now if any of the local cachers read this they’re going to be leaping up and down shouting “Oii... Mr Pharisee... What about your caches?” and they’ve got me bang to rights. The last cache I set is a strong contender for the most time consuming cache in the country; but looking at the stats for the caches I’ve set, I get the distinct feeling that I’m not the only one who, given a choice, goes for the easier options.

Take my Plantation Set caches, these 3 ‘bog standard’ traditional caches have notched up a fairly creditable 113 found logs between them.

On the other hand... Take three of my not-so-straight forward caches:-

“Wicked Lady”... Been down for well over a year, takes about four hours (but usually longer) to complete, has only been found 12 times, the last time 8 months ago!!

“Red October (part 5)”... Once you’ve completed the first four parts, this one takes about 1.1/2 hours, a couple of miles to walk and involves a lot of micros. Just 14 finds in 10 months.

“Your Mission”... This one, if I remember correctly, took the fastest finder about 8 days to complete and has just 5 finders.

 

So, you lot out there... this is the question... How many of you setters of fiendish multi and puzzle caches would actually go out and ‘do’ them if they’d been set by someone else?

Honest answers only, please :(

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Not on holiday. We started to avoid all the ones you mention below in favour of Traditional caches with regular containers. Close to home is another matter as we now cache 16 miles out (and increasing) so to answer the question. Yes i would but probably not on holiday unless the cache looked really exciting.

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To be honest Pharisee, your "complex caches" sound quite interesting. :laughing: Unfortunately you're a bit far south so i'll have to wait for a long weekend or a week off to get chance to do them.

 

I don't mind spending a lot of time on a particular cache, but it is nice to see an area with plenty of nice simple caches in a "getable" area. :(

 

If all caches were dead simple it would get a bit boring though, wouldn't it? :lol:

Edited by nediam
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I will mop up any and every cache I come across that’s close to where I live. But I too would filter out the caches like you have. Think its because if I am driving some distance (at a cost) Then I don’t want to just do one or two caches, or risk getting stuck and not finishing a cache that I might not be able to return to. But I hope people keep setting tough caches.

 

P.S Hope that’s our day out your planning :D

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We've only done one Pharisee cache (the now-archived "M25..what M25"). And that one was longer than expected (because I always expect a mystery tour to be circular).

 

I'm not averse to an occasional long cache, but with over 400 still to find within 50km of home, and them being planted faster than we can find them, we have to focus on the reasonably quick ones. Like markandlynn we recently started to hit just simple Traditionals. Otherwise we soon won't be able to see the map for the waypoints. :D

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For a full day out (we have lower cache density round here than in the UK), I will probably print out 10-12 sheets, of which maybe half will be multis. Then we'll start doing them more or less in convenient parking place order. After lunchtime we review progress - if the previous cache was a 1.5* multi that ended up taking two hours, we may move the multis to the back of the pile for the rest of the day. :D

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Hmmm... interesting point. I myself like to set nice simple caches <cough>.

 

OK, OK, not strictly true. When I started caching last year I went on a mad mission to do all the caches in West Yorkshire. Some were easy, some were hard.....

 

..... it was the harder ones that stuck in my mind. The ones that need a good half-half pencil worth of chewing or about 10 fags to solve before I even got out of the door. I _LIKE_ complicated puzzles as long as they're solvable.

 

Now, long multis, a different matter, they'd better be in a real interesting place, or I won't bother nowadays. Two that spring to mind as excellent multis, Quayside Phototrek and the first one round Durham, forget the name.

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Just realised there's a rutsonism in there:

 

"10 fags to solve"

 

I once working with a driver who would measure distances in 'fags' eg:

 

"How far is it to such and such a place"

"About 4 fags"

 

Now, a 'fag' didn't correspond to a specific disatnce, or even time, but more a stress factor, how long it SEEMED to take. So from Elland, both Queensbury (8 miles) and Bolton (30 miles) could be three fags, depending on the time of day.

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I tend to seek out the hardest caches in an area I'm going to visit, including long multis, and concentrate on those. I also enjoy the more straightforward ones for light relief.

 

Sometimes it's just not possible to include a time-consuming one in a short trip, so I have to pass it by: but it stays in the bookmark list.

 

I haven't been to Pharisee country yet, but keep those tough caches maintained please!

 

HH

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I like to do a selection of caches including the more time consuming multis and puzzles but if I am lacking time I will do the quicker caches. This does not mean I won't do the more difficult caches - I will come back later to finish off a series when I get the time. I have my dislikes - especially micros... but I will do them for the numbers :D .

 

Andy.

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The nearest unfound cache from me is nearly 60 miles away. So to keep caching I need to do a lot of driving.

 

I'm not a numbers man :D (I used to be), but I have to say that I do filter out certain caches. that is unless the family come with me and a good puzzle cache is a good way to spend the day instead of flitting from one to the other.

 

I have only set one multicache, which got muggled, so I changed it to a virtual so that people could still log it. I like all types of caches. It just depends on what type of day out is planned. :D

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We love to do lengthy caches, The Ring, Hunt for Red October, Reservoir Hogs, North Beds 10 miler, Your Mission etc. We dont mind the fact that a cache may take all day as long as the cache is interesting!

 

Best of all a greater sense of acheivement is gained after finding the elusive last cache! So keep your thinking cap on Mr. Pharisee because even if their isnt alot of caching traffic running through your caches those that have travelled that extra mile are reaping the benefits from your hard work!

 

"..Now where did we put that cache sheet for "The Wicked Lady"?" :D

 

House Of Boo

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Yes I tend to agree with Pharisee. 9 out of the nearest 13 to me (under 5 miles) are Multis and I have little inclination to do them at present. I prefer traditionals and have a fondness for micros having had a couple of very enjoyable days out in the various London Parks with Pharisee & Omally. :D

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Whilst I have only set one fairly straightforward cache so far ( I do have other more complex ones planned ) I certainly don't filter out the difficult ones completely. I have deliberately kept the more complex ones ( e.g the OPs Red October & Your Mission ) for the summer months and also when out as a family/group. If I'm out by myself, then I tend to do the more straightforward ones as my wife likes the ones with puzzles attached and is not so keen on the traditionals.

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Whilst we like to find caches which are easy and that are placed in a cache rich area, we do like to have a break and attempt the serial caches which are more 'in depth' . These caches give us a great feeling of satisfaction as these do take either more distance to travel, or more use of the grey cells, (which we are trying to preserve!).

The history surrounding the 'Wicked Lady',whom was our local villan(ess), was researched into great depth by Pharisee and I myself was thinking about placing a cache using this theme. Thankfully John beat me to it and has made a far better cache than I probably would have.

'Red October' is another enjoyable series of caches, but 'Your Mission' has to be one of the ultimate caches that anyone could complete. If there is such a thing as an interactive cache, then this is it. I'm not going to say anymore than, if you are able to attempt it....do so, as you are only missing out on a truely memorable caching experience.

 

It does seem a shame that numbers do seem to have the preference over challenge.

 

P.S. John....we did 'Your Mission' in 7 days. :D:D

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Since I seem to have decided to add in the extra little feature of the "quest for FTF" I do caches as and when they pop up.

 

Sadly, work often gets in the way...

 

But, if I'm free and it's not been found, I'll go for it, no matter what type it is!

 

This was why I had one caching day trip of 650 miles! I'd found one of the TBs for "Missing in Lancashire" and I was coming up to my 150, so I went out (from London) to find the other TB, plus the two required caches on opposite sides of Lancashire, as I recall, so I could get the main cache as my 150. Even had to arrange for an internet connection "in the field" - but I still remember my sense of triumph when it all worked out!

 

The only problem was that it all took so long that my dash across the Pennines got me to the pub about half an hour after the Harrogate Event had broken up! :D

 

I do prefer standard caches, though, rather than micros and virtuals, but I quite like the puzzles.

 

Bob Aldridge

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The only problem was that it all took so long that my dash across the Pennines got me to the pub about half an hour after the Harrogate Event had broken up! :D

 

I do prefer standard caches, though, rather than micros and virtuals, but I quite like the puzzles.

 

Bob Aldridge

 

I hope to see you there this year. :D

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Think it all boils down to free time, John B)

 

I would love to have the time to do "Your Mission..", but being away caching, sorry WORKING all week, the cats get a bit upset if I turn up at the weekend and want to go caching. Mummy Clanger is not that impressed either!! B):D

 

So typical day for me, be in Cheltenham for 07:30, 04:00 leave home, waiting around for a few hours and managed a few caches in the area. 11:00, job cancelled, go to Chester, where I am now. Managed 10 caches on the trip up :D:) .

 

So my point is, each to his own. I really enjoyed the "Red October" series even if the last part was a right swine and I have been looking at the "Your Mission.." as it is now my closet cache B)B)

 

I have had a number of negative e-mails about the way I cache, as I can only cache on weekdays and they will always be "dash and cache". :DB)

 

It still worries me why the negative reaction, who am I upsetting? :D:D

 

Thankfully (for me) with support from a number of "Berko/Luton" cachers I will carry on doing what I enjoy. :D:D

 

Nick

Edited by Beds Clangers
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So, you lot out there... this is the question... How many of you setters of fiendish multi and puzzle caches would actually go out and ‘do’ them if they’d been set by someone else?

Honest answers only, please  :D

I can't answer that question honestly or dishonestly as our 4 hidden caches are definitely not fiendish.

But as soon as a new "Pharisee" cache is posted it is put straight to the top of our "to do" list and all other cache hunts are put on hold.

To save being a hypocrite in your cache hunting, maybe the answer would be to stop hunting yourself :D and concentrate on placing more devilishly fiendish 5/5 puzzle caches, from which we local cachers get immense pleasure and fun as well as a great sense of achievement when we finally sign the log book. :D

John

PS Anything in the pipeline?

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I am absolutely 100% against caches which are not easy to find. I think the joy is that cachers can easily find something which the general population are not aware is even there. If I had my way, I'd ban multis, seriesseseses, devious hides. Sure, the terrain can be high, but not the difficulty.

 

So... why have we placed a fiendish 5/5? And why are we currently working with a bunch of other cachers on a nationwide 18-part series?

 

Because we're hypocrites. You got us there, Pharisee ;)

 

Cheers,

 

Stu

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All that's stopping us is a 6-year-old who thinks that 2 hours is a long time away from the computer...

 

Deb @ Cunning Planners

Crikey, I'm trying to my 6 year old onto the computer, I might get some peace and quiet then. :)

 

The thing that I struggle with is when I go to do a 4/5 and when I get to the location it's tricky to find. ;)

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we seem to be avoiding multis that have a micro at the end..we both like to have a rummage after chasing a cache.also i hate to find ANY cache that has the all to common pile of firewood placed on it.really annoys me to think someone has taken the time to place a cache only to see it get ruined by lazy people dumping wood on it.although its nice to bump up ones numbers by finding caches i would rather find it by accuracy and effort then by the so so obvious pile of firewood.i myself was fully guilty of just heaping the wood back on when i started this game but now i try to improve a caches hide when ive found it.

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As it's taken me over a year and a half to reach my first 100, I'm certainly not a numbers cacher. For me, it's the thrill of the chase and the sense of achievement at the end that I enjoy most.

 

As the rest of the Monsters aren't as keen on the sport as I am, I consider myself lucky if I do 2 caches in a day. I have to fit them in between other things we do, or do them alone as another in my series of 'Friday afternoon on-the-way-home-from-work' caches, or get sneaky by taking the family somewhere and saying, "While we're here we might as well do this cache. It's only just over there." But I think they're getting wise to that now.

 

So I try to pick those that are 1) close to where I am at the time (weekends away, holidays, new contract etc.), and 2) look likely to provide me with most enjoyment.

 

I'll generally only do a virtual or a micro if the area looks interesting; I have little inclination to do a locationless; and some 10% have been multis (11 of my first 100 - is that a record?), the first of which was Pharisee's Sandy Warren, and possibly the best of which was his sadly departed Trigonometry, Triangles and Treachery.

 

Struth! That was a bit of an essay! :D

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It's down to time for me. I prefer a multi or a puzzle cache at the weekend but during the week time tends to be short so I would need a good idea of the time it would take to complete before I would try a multi. I enjoy setting puzzle caches and accept that the hit rate will be less- each to their own!

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It's down to time for me. I prefer a multi or a puzzle cache at the weekend but during the week time tends to be short so I would need a good idea of the time it would take to complete before I would try a multi. I enjoy setting puzzle caches and accept that the hit rate will be less- each to their own!

hit rate less?, are you sure?

 

Im sure dozens of people have hit The Truth is Out There

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The problem is that there are two sorts of people who cache.

 

One lot are people who like to just find caches, and play the game because they see it as an afternoon out, not too strenuous, simple enjoyment.

 

The other lot are puzzlers, who delight in cracking a puzzle, whether it's a brain-teaser, a crossword, or an IQ test. There have always been a fair proportion of these type in any population, but it has to be said that the numbers of this group, when compared to the numbers of the first group, are quite small.

 

I believe the game started out as an invention of the first group, and has to some degree been hijacked by the second, in that an increasing proportion of new caches appear to be of the "puzzle" type. I include here, a lot of multi caches if the gathering of the clues is anything but straightforward. I am NOT just referring strictly to the new GC.COM category of "puzzle cache".

 

I started this game in order to get out and find hidden boxes, after a bit of a walk and maybe a bit of a learn. I did not get into it, or splash out money on my Etrex, so I could spend my time straining my brain and trudging through 21 miles of woods. I admit to having done a few of these type of cache and usually getting very annoyed and frustrated along the way. As I say, I do not see caching as a puzzle-solving sport, yet some people now seem to do little else with it.

 

The other problem is that, of the two groups mentioned above, it is the second group, those who enjoy these extended enhanced puzzle/marathon type caches, who will take the time to set more of the dratted things. They do this because they are either too clever for their own boots, or else they think they are. What they are in effect doing is setting up a new game called "setting difficult caches". They get their main pleasure out of setting the things, not out of doing other people's.

 

I'm just a bit worried that the proliferation of all these twisted, fiendish caches will put off the majority of new cachers who will look at the map in bewilderment trying to spot a standard cache within 50 miles of their own home. Maybe THAT could be a whole new sport in it's own right!

 

As Pharisee has already pointed out, the facts and figures speak for themselves. The number of people who actually *do* these hard caches is quite small. Most people just don't want them, and vote with their feet and keep away from them.

 

My three caches are all very "standard" and all very popular. Go figure!

 

Setting hugely complex and fiendish caches is not funny and not clever. And it's not caching either.

 

Rant over.

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Not sure where MCL lives, but there are more than enough traditional caches in the North West to satisfy those who don't fancy a puzzle. Given that it is very easy from the listing (and the category) to spot a puzzle cache I wouldn't have thought these would put anyone off geocaching!

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The problem is that there are two sorts of people who cache.

and a third sort, who belong to both of the other two groups.

 

I'll do every and any cache that appears within 30 miles of home. Any further than that I will probably avoid complex puzzle caches. For instance, I did 26 of the 29 caches along the Kennet and Avon canal (approx 100 miles from home). One was unavailable, one I ran out of time for, and the other one was a mystery/puzzle cache (Canal Bypass) which I skipped because I had other standard caches nearby.

 

Having said that, I have had a day out just to do Wildcat which is a complex puzzle if ever I saw one (see my TOP TEN link in my profile).

 

I'm glad of the variety, and as more and more people join the caching fraternity, people will gradually up the ante. It's a good thing in my opinion.

Edited by Stuey
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I like an "afternoon out, not too strenuous, simple enjoyment.". Sometimes I like to crack a puzzle or two before I go. It's nice to work on a cache when I can't get out.

 

Sometimes I like a strenuous day out. Sometimes I like a real tough challenge.

 

Am I schizophrenic? Should I find something else instead of geocaching <_< ?

 

If not, it sounds like MCL's area is packed with challenging caches, judging by the rant :blink: . Any recommendations?

 

I'm off to log some caches on Sunday - my efforts might raise a smile from Pieman. As they are quite a distance from home, and I only have a couple of hours available on Sunday afternoon, there won't be chance for many. Oddly enough, the two I've chosen are both the type that MCL complains about.

 

HH.

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Variety is the spice of life. We like all cache types, time permitting. Just because traditionals have more logs, it doesn't mean we should only place them.

 

IMO, there isn't a 'proliferation' of puzzles. If you don't do a particular type of cache, your unfound list is bound to have a lot of them on, as you will have done most of the traditionals near home.

 

I cannot understand why anyone would get annoyed about any particular type of cache. There are plenty to choose from. If you don't like them then don't do them, but don't get annoyed because other people like something you don't, and don't claim that 'most people' share the same view as you.

 

Out of 810 caches we have found, 585 are traditional, and 61 are mystery caches. Does this mean we prefer one type over another?

 

T

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There is no proliferation of Puzzle caches in the North West, in fact there are scant few.

 

Of my 138 caches there are 21 Mystery caches, and of those 17 are parts of a multi-stage series, or a multistageish cache themselves.. and the 5 math series which are very easy since they are based upon GCSE math.

 

That Leaves 4 real puzzles caches, One in the Eye, The Helsby 5K Challenge, Su Doku - Go Wylde in the country, and The Truth is out there 5 if you add mine, Devils Flute, and there are a couple more on the fringe that I have yet to get round to.

 

This adds up to less than 5%, and at least one of those puzzles is probably easier to solve by the 'not so super intelligent', because the real trap that a lot of people have fallen into is to overthink it.

Edited by -Phoenix-
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I agree with Tigger, and think that "most people" <_< would also agree with her summary .

 

In Chris and MCL's ideal geocaching world of easy caches only: taking Pharisee's OP example, there would be fifty geocaches in the area originally, now reduced to thirty-five by the removal of multis and puzzles.

 

Chris and MCL would be happier because no-one would be able to log these caches any more. I'm still not sure WHY they'd be happier: but happier they would be.

 

But how does having fifteen caches less help anyone else? That really is a puzzle to me!

 

HH

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There is no proliferation of Puzzle caches in the North West

To be fair, MCL did say that it wasn't just puzzle caches that get up his nose, it's any difficult or time-consuming cache (if I understand him correctly).

 

I still don't think these are "proliferating", though - I'd guess that the 4-5 star caches represent less than 10% of the total. Anyone care to check?

 

There appears to be two types of geocacher, as MCL stated. I think the two categories are;

those that only like one sort of cache: and the others :blink: .

 

HH.

 

P.S. Just checked MCL's caches: the first one had the following log

"...took me two days to find this one. but it was well worth it..." <_< ...talk about hypocrisy (only kidding, MCL!).

 

(edited to add P.S.)

Edited by Happy Humphrey
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I still don't think these are "proliferating", though - I'd guess that the 4-5 star caches represent less than 10% of the total. Anyone care to check?

 

According to my GSAK db, with the following options -

 

Status : Active

Type : Traditional, Multi, Mystery, Other & Earth

 

Difficulty 5 : 61

Difficulty 4 : 123

Difficulty 3 : 651

Difficulty 2 : 2258

Difficulty 1 : 2246

 

( each level includes the half level )

 

EDIT : Brought my GSAK db up to date with the latest PQs and updated the figures above. ( Changes have not significantly changed 'Happy Humphrey's findings below )

Edited by Roberts-tribe
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OK, well, there are two caches that spring to mind that are time consuming, but on the plus side they are both well worth it becasue they are urban, and in areas that are well worth exploring.... but, these are in fact all Multi-caches, not mysteries

 

A cup o tea and a slice of cake

Where Phoebos is Fulgent

 

Frankly, on these, my opinions is divided, I much prefer spending a week at home trying to crack the likes of The truth is out there, or a day on the Plough or Rainbow series, than two hours roaming around the place trying to pick up all the clues to a single multi cache.

 

But, like has already been said, variety is the spice of life, frankly I find an unvisited cache inside 'my area' somewhat offending, and will do it reguardless, but, if I was to go on a trip outside my zone then I would probably give it a miss.

 

I guess this adds a further division to this discussion, ie local cachers and tourists, I believe that most cachers will try and work the entirety of their area reguardless of the type or difficulty, but, when they play away from home, then they will be selective, but then again, this isnt an earth shattering revelation, its life, we all make the most of the varied british weather, yet when we go on holiday we go for something specific, wheatehr its skiing or sun and sea.

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And the growth figures from the time between the original and edited posts completely disprove any suggestion of prolifereation 2 4/5 caches vs 85 1/2/3s.

 

In fact this demonstrates a proliferation of easy caches, adn 4/5s are beoming an decreasing minority

Edited by -Phoenix-
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In Chris and MCL's ideal geocaching world of easy caches only: taking Pharisee's OP example, there would be fifty geocaches in the area originally, now reduced to thirty-five by the removal of multis and puzzles.

Nope not exactly what I was saying. In my ideal world all caches would be in great locations and would involve a reasonable walk to the cache and could be found with under 30minutes of searching. Multis that take you on an exploration of somewhere interesting are fine but if the puzzle element completely overides the walk and the location then I am not a fan.

 

IMHO caches that got it right were Mashers Mission impossible and SimonGs Dance of the dead both of which had a puzzle element that added to the fun rather than dominated it.

Chris

Edited by Chris n Maria
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if the puzzle element completely overides the walk and the location then I am not a fan.

That's my view, too. There've been a few puzzle caches placed recently where the locations have no special value. In fact, the locations already have a number of traditional caches nearby.

 

So the value in these caches is the puzzle. Fine if you like puzzles, but this game is about geocaching.

 

And, no, this is not sour grapes because I can't solve the puzzles. <_<

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