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Small Pocket Knives As Swag? Yes? No?


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Don't forget also that the UK has had security scares, people having their bags searched going into London stores and museums, off and on since the 1970s, courtesy of the IRA (the terrorists, not the pension plan). So a pocket knife would just be one more thing to explain to bored, underpaid people with a uniform, attitude, and some degree of authority to spoil your day.

 

Also, it seems to me that many Americans are more practically-minded than the average Brit (that's me!) or other European. I think about 0.1% of vehicle sales in Europe are pickup trucks, of which almost all are sold to farmers. Maybe the American education system knocks less of the curiosity out of people.

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Very well. When it comes to the Knives Act, either the police overreacted, misused their power (I've heard that this can actually happen in different countries! :D), or the man didn't have a good reason to carry his pen-knife. :D

 

I don't have much more to say to the violent crime rate. I merely responded to the cheap OT UK-bashing by showing a rather official source where there wasn't that many signs of the mentioned skyrocketing.

 

Heh, Mopar, great help indeed. :D So pocket knives carried with a good reason aren't considered weapons. Yup, that's what I found out too. Or were you trying to point out that Auntie's gasping-roomful-sherry-incident was a crime after all?

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Heh, Mopar, great help indeed. :D So pocket knives carried with a good reason aren't considered weapons. Yup, that's what I found out too. Or were you trying to point out that Auntie's gasping-roomful-sherry-incident was a crime after all?

Somehow, I have a feeling "I carry a knife in case I have to open a bottle of sherry and nobody remembers a corkscrew" would not satisfy the definition of "a good reason" if you get caught with a knife in the UK. Judging from the reaction Auntie got, the people in the room didn't think so either.

 

Edit to get back on topic:

So in the UK, as well as many states in the US, it's a crime to provide a minor with a knife. Since there is no way I can guarantee who will visit a cache next (or even if it's a cacher), from purely a legal liability standpoint, leaving knives (or any regulated item) in a cache is just plain dumb.

 

FWIW: I've carried a knife in my pocket almost every day of my life since I was maybe 8-10yrs old. It went to school with me. Pre-9/11 it went to concerts and sporting events and on planes with me. Ive owned my current daily pocket knife for over 20yrs. When I first started caching 3.5yrs ago I left them in caches as trade items. Now there are guidelines against it, and over-reacting land managers, police and politicians that will use something like a knife as an excuse to ban the game I love. So I don't do it.

Edited by Mopar
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Sorry back OT

Where can I buy a bunch of cheap pocketknives?

I get them from the Everything For A Dollar Store in Lansdowne Mall in Richmond for a whopping $1 (CDN) each, complete with vinyl carrying case. EFADS is a Canada-wide chain but a quick Canada411 search shows none on the island. When are you coming over here again? I can pick a bunch up for you.

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This hysteria about knives in Britain sounds pretty silly to an American. I got my first pocketknife when I was a cub scout. It was an official cub scout knife, and intended to be given to, and carried by a child (with appropriate instruction). Every boy I knew had a pocket knife, but more kids got hurt by roller skates and trampolines.

 

Of course, even here we have become a bit paranoid since 9/11. When I was 14, and worked in a grocery store, I routinely carried a box cutter, but I don't think it would be such a good idea now.

 

On 9/11, after the towers fell, a man wearing a turban and carrying a knife in his belt was taken off a train in Providence, RI, and given quite a bad time. Anyone could see that he was a Sikh--not an Arab. Sikh men carry a small dagger in their belt--not hidden. It's a religious practice, but the turban and the knife got this fellow in hot water for a while.

 

As for knives in caches, common sense seems to suggest that it's a bad idea.

Edited by reveritt
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When I was a cub scout, I got my first swiss army knife. Before I was able to keep it, I show that I could use it safely.

 

Thanks for making me recall this memory, although its not really on point to this thread.

 

The fact is that there are no compelling reasons to leave knives in caches, but there are a few good ones to leave them out. Not the least of which is that the guidelines say so.

 

The best reason, in my opinion, is that other local areas don't ban caching and hold up as evidence that if cachers cannot even follow this simple tenet, how can they be expected to be responsible in other ways. (Its kind of a melding of South Carolina's current concern and Georgia's old one.)

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When I was taught how to use a knife way back in Cub Scouts, they taught us not to give the knife to someone that doesn't know how to use it, nor do we leave it in a place where it may not be safe.

 

If you leave the knife in a cache (ANY cache), can you guarantee that only responsible people will find it?

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It must be horrible to live in such a state of paranoia.

I used to think so, too. When I first started traveling to England, some years ago now, I thought how sad it was that they felt they had to search my bag every time I went into an important public building. I'm a little ashamed to admit it now, but I felt smug that my country wasn't like that.

 

But it wasn't England's fault that England had to do that then, and it isn't America's fault that America has to do it now. And let's hope you never have to feel what it's like if Canada has to do it.

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I have 4 young children that love geocaching. Sometimes they even find the cache, but they aren't allowed to open it. My one son was only 6 when he found a swiss army knife in a campground we were staying in. The knife was only confiscated when he thought it would be cool to carve the bedposts. So kids can get knives even if they aren't in a cache.

 

Would I place a knife in a cache? Probably not unless it was one out in the state game lands. Do I carry a knife? All the time. I have a swiss army knife that has just about everything you could need on it. I keep it in my purse and the scissors and screwdriver get the most use. The blade is rarely opened. The only time I had a probelm with my knife was when I was in D.C. and forgot about it being in my purse while I was waiting to go into the Washington Monument ;) They were actually very nice about it because I remembered it when I got to the guard and gave it over to him before they found it on their own. They just held it for me until I came back down. :)

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Oh dang! I couldn't help myself. I wanted to ignore this, but had to post! ;)

 

Knife story: Once at the court I work for there was a case that attracted a bunch of farmers to come watch arguments. As I was going into court, the state patrol guard commented to me that all the farmers ahead of me had pocket knives that set off the metal detector. I asked where the knives were after that and he said, "oh, all farmers carry knives, so I didn't worry about it and let them keep them." Of course he should have not let them take the knives into court because it is against the rules.

 

Did the farmers freak out and use the knives in court? No. Many people in Nebraska carry pocket knives all the time. They are very common here. Does the court have rules against them? Yes, because you never know. Almost all of the time it will be fine, but you never know, so the rule should have been applied.

 

Anyway, I think knives are great in theory as trade items. Most all will not be harmed and will like them, but you never know and that "never know factor" has caused some land managers to be concerned and threaten to ban caching, so a rule was made. I know that it hasn't been land managers in all areas or countries, but at times a rule has to be a bright line one to cover the "never know factor." For example, it would be hard for the court I work for to allow farmers to have knives in court and not others, and what about the odd time where a farmer did maybe use a knife in court?

 

In the end, I would be more than happy if I could use a nice pocket knife or leatherman tool as a FTF prize in a cache or to leave cheap pocket knives as trade items. But I see why there is concern and with so many other possible items to use, I figure why go there? Even here in the midwest US, where many people carry knives, I know of land managers who have banned knives in their policies and others who have expresed concerns. So feeding those concerns by placing knives in caches just seems silly to me. I don't see a reason to cause waves, especially when it could lead to park issues. I can't imagine that anyone would be harmed by NOT leaving or finding a knife in a cache.

 

But laser pointers. Well that is different.... I love those.... If cachers don't suddenly start blinding people with those, they might stay OK! I figure that land managers are not worried about those quite yet. Although my cats are rather worried right now because they can't catch the light on the wall! :):)

Edited by carleenp
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When army men and all action figures (including the green ones) were banned I supported keeping them, but now I make sure they stay out of my caches and the caches I find since they really have no reason to be in caches. If you need an action figure, go to a store.

 

Personally I say let any object be placed in any cache.

 

I am kind of a rebel. If the nanny of public lands decides to ban caching that is the first place I would look to seek and hide a cache.

 

Just me (and countless others)

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When crayons and all markers (including the colorful ones) were banned I supported keeping them, but now I make sure they stay out of my caches and the caches I find since they really have no reason to be in caches. If you need a crayon, go to a store.

I liked it when you replaced knives with action figures in my quote! I think we should all play a game of "Replacing Radman's Words With Something Stupid and Irrelavant"!

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Heh, Mopar, great help indeed. ;) So pocket knives carried with a good reason aren't considered weapons. Yup, that's what I found out too. Or were you trying to point out that Auntie's gasping-roomful-sherry-incident was a crime after all?

Somehow, I have a feeling "I carry a knife in case I have to open a bottle of sherry and nobody remembers a corkscrew" would not satisfy the definition of "a good reason" if you get caught with a knife in the UK. Judging from the reaction Auntie got, the people in the room didn't think so either.

I was all the time defending my point that a pocket knife is a tool and not legally considered a weapon in most (if not all) countries. I found an act which to considerable extent proves that it is so in the UK too. No matter how some random people are feeling about its enforcement.

 

Still, I wouldn't be very concerned, if I returned from a 10 km geocaching hike with dirty hiking boots and other stuff, and road block police officers questioned me about my multitool or pocket knife. Even in England. My feeling is that they wouldn't be considered weapons.

 

I'm sure we all can find incidents and situations in any country where authorities consider them also weapons.

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My feeling is that they wouldn't be considered weapons.

 

I'm sure we all can find incidents and situations in any country where authorities consider them also weapons.

Whether a knife is a weapon or not depends mostly on how long the blade is.

A pocket knife with a folding 3" blade is not a weapon.

 

A hunting knife with a 6" blade could be.

 

A Desperate Housewife with fire in her eyes and a 6" filet knife certainly has a weapon. ;)

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When I was eight my grandfather asked me if I had a penny. It was a strange question coming from him but I had one and gave it to him. He handed me a small folding blade pocket knife in return and explained that it was bad luck to 'gift' a knife. Hence the penny. It is one of my fondest childhood memories. I have carried one ever since.

 

For the past 16 years I have carried the exact same 4 inch lock blade (Kershaw Black Gulch) nearly everyday. I don't take it into court houses or airports for obvious reasons. It's a tool that is practically useless as a weapon but has proven invaluable to me on countless occasions.

 

If a child is old enough to cache alone then they are old enough to carry a knife, imho. However, I don't make that choice for other parents and as already mentioned countless times, we can't control who finds a cache.

 

Every knife I've ever seen in a cache was of the dime store variety. More trinket than tool and most likely only appealing to a child.

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The UK toughened up its knife laws in reaction to the number of people with very small... well anyway, with "self-esteem issues", who were walking around with these 10-inch blade razor-sharp things that you can buy in magazines for survivalists, the clear implication being that after the bomb drops, it'll be you or the other guy for that tasty rabbit, and this way you'll get the rabbit (oh, and have something to skin it with).

 

Something similar happened a few years previously when certain breeds of dogs were "more or less" banned, again because the UK's equivalent of trailer trash (tip for Americans: Google for the word "Chav") were using them to intimidate their neighbours.

 

In both cases, of course, the legislation was passed in a hurry, badly drawn up, and allowed the more statistically-minded sections of law enforcement to score lots of look-good-at-appraisal-time points by picking on middle-class, law-abiding people who were technically in violation of the law, rather than risking their safety unnecessarily by taking on the guy with the 10-inch knife. Quite understandable, it's certainly what I'd do.

 

At some point, maybe UK lawmakers will wake up to the fact that legislating to "improve" people's behaviour doesn't work, but in the meantime, that's what you get.

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Hi,

 

One of my sig items is a small swiss-army style knife attached to a carabiner and a compass. I don't leave them in playground caches or caches likely to be visited by small children unaccompanied by adults. I have come across similar things in caches while caching with my 2.5 year old son, and have simply told him that he needed to pick another item. I think my point is that people placing trade items should use common sense, and parents caching with their kids should do the same...it's a dangerous world, and they are far easier ways for young children to harm themselves than with my sig-items hidden in deep woods caches.

 

sig.jpg

 

nfa-jamie

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Gorak, once again I see the same problem. The rules/guidelines only apply to me if I feel they will only impact myself and since I live in another country the guidelines are really meant for Americans;

When it comes to hiding caches that I list on GC, I obey their rules/guidelines and do not leave anything in my cache that would violate their rules. That is what I agree to when I submit a cache for listing on this site. But that is where my obligation to GC ends. I understand their reasons for wanting to restrict certain items from being traded but I feel no obligation whatsoever to abide by those restrictions if I do not agree with them or I don't believe their reasoning applies to a particular situation. Many of the rules/guidelines are designed to address concerns which are US-centric. I happen to live in a different country where the laws, culture and public attitudes differ greatly from the USA.

 

This a selfish statement, if you think that leaving knives in caches hurts no one than try this. Go find a land manager who allows Geocaching on their property, ask what they would think if someone left a knife as trade item(not originally placed in the cache, but by someone who finds the cache), if they have a problem with it ask them if they would ban Geocaches if they heard this was happening throughout their area. Let us know what the answer is.

 

You seem to have no problem with not putting knives into caches when you hide them yourself knowing they are prohibited. But that same knife is not a problem if you leave it in a cache that is not yours. In the long run actions like yours put Geocaching in a bad light with repercussions that go beyond your hometown.

 

If you want to carry a knife when you go Geocaching, do it. For twenty years making sure I had my knife and multi tool/swiss army knife was as second nature as my wallet and car keys.

Edited by magellan315
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Gorak, once again I see the same problem. The rules/guidelines only apply to me if I feel they will only impact myself and since I live in another country the guidelines are really meant for Americans;

The problem as I see it is people and/or private corporations making and attempting to enforce rules that they have no authority to make. GC does not have the authority to make rules for how we cache or what we trade. Their only authority is over which caches they deem suitable or unsuitable for listing on their site. How typically American of you to believe that what is good for the US is good for the rest of the world. :rolleyes:

 

This a selfish statement, if you think that leaving knives in caches hurts no one than try this. Go find a land manager who allows Geocaching on their property,  ask what they would think if someone left a knife as trade item(not originally placed in the cache, but by someone who finds the cache), if they have a problem with it ask them if they would ban Geocaches if they heard this was happening throughout their area. Let us know what the answer is.

Our public lands are managed quite a bit differently than they are in the US. With rare exceptions, I'm not required to check with a "land manager" before using public lands for recreation.

 

You seem to have no problem with not putting knives into caches when you hide them yourself knowing they are prohibited. But that same knife is not a problem if you leave it in a cache that is not yours. In the long run actions like yours put Geocaching in a bad light with repercussions that go beyond your hometown.

I adhere to the guidelines for my own caches because I am forced to agree to when I click the submit button. That doesn't mean I agree with them. I am not obligated to adhere to anyone's guidelines when I am out hunting for caches, especially ones that I disagree with.

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I have been attacked by someone holding a knife. Sure, it wasn't one of the small kinds, but my thought is why carry one all the time? The dude who attacked me carried one (to a party, where he got drunk, the idiot.) I carry a knife when I go hiking or geocaching, but not everywhere. Anyway, if we say "okey, small knives are okey", then your going to have people wanting to put in bigger knives, and so I say keep them out of caches.

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How typically American of you to believe that what is good for the US is good for the rest of the world.

Spare me the political rhetoric, I speak as Geocacher not as an American.

 

Our public lands are managed quite a bit differently than they are in the US. With rare exceptions, I'm not required to check with a "land manager" before using public lands for recreation.

 

I don't have to ask for permission. What I do know from direct experience is that while many land managers accept Geocaching they want to make sure that nothing that could be reasonably considered a weapon, like knives, will be in caches. Can you say the same for Canadian Land Managers? As I stated, go talk to one. If it is not a problem, then your fine. If they consider it a problem ask them what would happen if knives wre found in Geocaches on their land. You don't have to tell them that you place knives in caches, its just a hypothetical conversation.

 

We all understand that you feel no need to follow any guidelines unless you argree with them or are required to, not sure which ones if any that you do agree with. If your local land managers have concerns with knives and then deceide to ban Geoaching all together, than you have ruined things for a lot more people than yourself.

Edited by magellan315
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I can tell from the swagger in your step that you just placed a knife in that cache over there, didn't you? You're such a rebel. I bet you that the ladies swoon in your presence.

 

And flouting it in the forums? I think I almost fainted just then. Golly you're cool. Not ice cool but blizzard cool, man. You are one cool cat with that swagger in your step.

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Our society has changed a lot from the time I grew up. Today, there is almost no such thing as personal responsibility. Someone else is almost always to blame for anything unexpected that happens to folks and rules or guidelines are established to handle worst case situations. Today we plan for the possible but not probable 80+ year old terrorists at airports with toe-nail scissors and nail files for weapons and 6 year old cachers without parental supervision. While I understand the guidelines, I'm appalled by having to resort to guidelines for cache contents at all. It is unfortunate but a reality.

 

It is possible to argue that eliminating pens and pencils because kids could use them to stab someone for mouthing off while those kids are caching without parental supervision. Since paper cuts are both painful and can get infected one could argue eliminating paper logs are a good safety measure too. Do these sound ridulous to you? They do to me, but then again look where I come from in space and time.

 

I grew up in the country. I had a pocket knife by the time I went to kindergarten. If I have my pants on, I have a pocket knife today. My Dad taught me to shoot a rifle as soon as could hold one up. I had my own 22 caliber bolt action repeating rifle at age 9 because my Dad knew I would not dare misuse it. I knew better because I believed whatever the sheriff could do, what my Dad would do would be worse. I would be held to account for whatever I did and it was never someone elses fault.

 

My neighbor friend and I shot rats at the dump when we took ours and his trash to the dump in the old farm truck and nobody cared if we were too young to have drivers licenses. We learned to drive the truck as soon as we could reach the pedals to help move the hay from the field to the barn. The dump was also two miles away on back dirt roads. Now, that was over a half century ago. We even carried pocket knives to school then. We used to play mumbly peg during recess. Things were a lot different when I grew up.

 

So, what is my point? Times change and nobody can really control time or what you put in a cache as a trade item. That is a fact. The guidelines are there for us all to help maximize our freedom to cache. YOU are responsible for your actions and for the consequences produced by them. If land owners and managers don't like YOUR actions, their land will be lost to caches just as hunting land access has been lost because of trespassing and obnoxious hunters. Feel free to complain about the guidelines if you like, but just remember YOUR actions will influence OUR sport.

 

MM

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By the way Gorak, think you don't have to ask for permission, check out this LINK

The park you are referring to is several thousand miles to the east of where I am and is one of those "rare exceptions" that I mentioned. The cache I found that you mentioned in your now edited reply is on the west coast of British Columbia. Georgian Bay Islands are in Ontario.

 

Do you happen to know why caching is banned in Georgian Bay Islands National Park? Probably not. Neither do I. But I'll bet it had nothing to do with fears that someone would leave a little pocketknife it it. :rolleyes:

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I can tell from the swagger in your step that you just placed a knife in that cache over there, didn't you? You're such a rebel. I bet you that the ladies swoon in your presence.

 

And flouting it in the forums? I think I almost fainted just then. Golly you're cool. Not ice cool but blizzard cool, man. You are one cool cat with that swagger in your step.

Very constructive reply.

 

A commonly quoted excerpt from your forum guidelines:

 

Personal Attacks and Flames will not be tolerated. If you want to praise or criticize, give examples as to why it is good or bad, general attacks on a person or idea will not be tolerated.

Had I used those exact words to reply to one of your posts I can guarantee that I would be receiving a timeout from one of the mods. icon_rolleyes.gif

 

Edit: fixed typo

Edited by Gorak
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How typically American of you to believe that what is good for the US is good for the rest of the world.

I'm not sure how helpful it is to suggest that anything is "typically American", apart from perhaps Coca-Cola and baseball... especially when probably more than half of the Americans on here are in agreement, or at least sympathise, with you on this issue. :rolleyes:

 

Nick (PS: I'm a Brit; I don't know if I'm "typical".)

Edited by sTeamTraen
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Had I used those exact words to reply to one of your posts I can guarantee that I would be receiving a timeout from one of the mods.

Who was I attacking?

doesn't matter, it's an attack on one of the posters who disagreed with you...at first I thought it was directed at me, and then later, I decided I didn't care...

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Had I used those exact words to reply to one of your posts I can guarantee that I would be receiving a timeout from one of the mods.

Who was I attacking?

doesn't matter, it's an attack on one of the posters who disagreed with you...at first I thought it was directed at me, and then later, I decided I didn't care...

I thought it was me. Especially when he got to the part about ladies swooning.

Edited by briansnat
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Who was I attacking?

doesn't matter, it's an attack on one of the posters who disagreed with you...at first I thought it was directed at me, and then later, I decided I didn't care...

It was directed at no one. I was just imagining seeing someone swaggering away from a cache find with a smug look on their face for leaving a pocket knife in it, and then posting in the forums how they're flaunting the guidelines to rebel against the system.

 

Some points (since this comes up often)

 

Point A: Placing a pocket knife in a cache is against the guidelines. No one will stop you since caches are unguarded.

 

Point B: Posting how "I'm a gonna place a pocket knife in a cache no matter what the guidelines say" is just a "nyeah nyeah" tactic that makes you look childish. I didn't read your posts so I don't know if you're taking this approach. Nor do I care. No one will stop you and since most people do understand why this is in place, it doesn't happen that often.

 

Point C: We're mostly here to educate users since we know that we can't sit there at every cache and police it.

 

After these points, if you feel they were directed at you, get over it. I wasn't directing them specifically at anyone. Seriously get over it because this is the lamest repeated topic in the history of the forums. The shouts of "help help I'm being repressed" is hellalame. And humorous to boot.

Edited by Jeremy
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I can tell from the swagger in your step that you just placed a knife in that cache over there, didn't you? You're such a rebel. I bet you that the ladies swoon in your presence.

 

And flouting it in the forums? I think I almost fainted just then. Golly you're cool. Not ice cool but blizzard cool, man. You are one cool cat with that swagger in your step.

Very constructive reply.

 

A commonly quoted excerpt from your forum guidelines:

 

Personal Attacks and Flames will not be tolerated. If you want to praise or criticize, give examples as to why it is good or bad, general attacks on a person or idea will not be tolerated.

Had I used those exact words to reply to one of your posts I can guarantee that I would be receiving a timeout from one of the mods. icon_rolleyes.gif

 

Edit: fixed typo

So now we can choose which guidelines to follow and which we want to throw out the window?

 

Cool! I'm liking this place more and more all the time! :rolleyes:

 

Can't we all just get along?

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